Suns Off-season Thread

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Amare’s microfracture at 22 years old is the 2nd biggest what-if after the 69’ coinflip and then there’s a big drop off to #3. The crazy thing is he still came back and was a great offensive player. Truly a freak in his day.
I say there are what-ifs more interesting than that, if not as "big." Try this one: What if Richard Dumas hadn't used drugs in 1993 and so the Suns had successfuly traded him to the Detroit Pistons for Dennis Rodman? Instead of a starting frontcourt of Charles Barkley and A.C. Green, there would have been Charles Barkley and Dennis Rodman. (I wonder whether Green would have signed anyway and come off the bench.)
 
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And what if Danny Manning hadn't torn his ACL in 1995? I believe the Suns would probably have had enough firepower to defeat Hakeem Olajuwon.
 

AzStevenCal

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I say there are what-ifs more interesting than that, if not as "big." Try this one: What if Richard Dumas hadn't used drugs in 1993 and so the Suns had successfuly traded him to the Detroit Pistons for Dennis Rodman? Instead of a starting frontcourt of Charles Barkley and A.C. Green, there would have been Charles Barkley and Dennis Rodman. (I wonder whether Green would have signed anyway and come off the bench.)
IMO if Dumas hadn't used drugs AND we traded him for Rodman it would have been one of the worst trades we ever made. And you skipped over Oliver Miller, had he not eaten everything at the buffet table including the table, he might have become the HOF center we always wanted.

But none of these guys had the potential and the likeilhood of reaching that potential that Amare did. At 22 he was well on the road to becoming the most unstoppable offensive force the Suns have ever had (including CB) and with loads of untapped defensive potential.
 
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IMO if Dumas hadn't used drugs AND we traded him for Rodman it would have been one of the worst trades we ever made.
And why would that be? WOuld he not have done for the Suns what he did in reality for the Pistons, Spurs and Bulls? Would he not have provided excellent defense and rebounding?
 

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And why would that be? WOuld he not have done for the Suns what he did in reality for the Pistons, Spurs and Bulls?
We would have been his Spurs stop, where he was far more problem than answer. Even Jackson and Jordan had their hands full keeping Rodman focused and almost sane. Putting him with Barkley would have been a nightmare for any coach.
 
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We would have been his Spurs stop, where he was far more problem than answer. Even Jackson and Jordan had their hands full keeping Rodman focused and almost sane. Putting him with Barkley would have been a nightmare for any coach.
I blame the Spurs' culture. I think it tried too hard to assimilate Rodman without respecting him. What he later did for the Bulls proves that he would have been worth the Spurs' effort.

But I see your point. I'm not sure whether Jerry Colangelo would have understood that Rodman was a basketball genius whose bizarre behavior he should tolerate. The Suns culture back then sounds very conservative. The Bulls' ruthless culture would do absolutely anything to win, even accommodating a player like Rodman.
 

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Speaking of "what ifs", what if we'd had a quality scouting department and an empowered decision maker to match during the McD era?

Imagine the talent we'd have if we hadn't wasted all those first round lottery picks on brain dead/under motivated guys like Josh Jackson, Dragan Bender, Marquise Chriss, TJ Warren, Earl Clark and Alex Len? Or the first round picks we wasted on guards that didn't have NBA speed or quickness such as Tyler Ennis and Kendall Marshall?
 

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I blame the Spurs culture. I think it tried too hard to assimilate Rodman without respecting him.

But I see your point. I'm not sure whether Jerry Colangelo would have understood that Rodman was a basketball genius whose odd behavior he should tolerate. The Suns culture back then sounds very conservative.
I blame Rodman and only Rodman. The only blame I'd attach to the Spurs is the decision maker that thought adding Dennis was a good idea in the first place. He was a problem for every team he played with even while he was a defensive force. Once stardom hit, even that Pistons team had trouble managing him.
 
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Speaking of "what ifs", what if we'd had a quality scouting department and an empowered decision maker to match during the McD era?

Imagine the talent we'd have if we hadn't wasted all those first round lottery picks on brain dead/under motivated guys like Josh Jackson, Dragan Bender, Marquise Chriss, TJ Warren, Earl Clark and Alex Len? Or the first round picks we wasted on guards that didn't have NBA speed or quickness such as Tyler Ennis and Kendall Marshall?
In defense of T.J. Warren, I need evidence that he's either brain-dead or under-motivated. Of those players, he appears to be the most competent; and he has bounced around the least. Apparently his career average is 15 or 16 PPG. I disagree that he's a wasted pick.
 
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Here is another interesting what-if. What if Ainge had stayed on Paxson? Someone explained to me what I had never known: that Horace Grant had an open layup and that's what Ainge wanted to prevent. I think the Suns should have risked Grant's layup, because they were up by three and the layup was worth only two. If the Suns could have avoided fouling.
 

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In defense of T.J. Warren, I need evidence that he's either brain-dead or under-motivated. Of those players, he appears to be the most competent; and he has bounced around the least. Apparently his career average is 15 or 16 PPG. I disagree that he's a wasted pick.
Lots of talent but it seemed to many of us there was something wrong with his head or his heart, maybe we'll never know which? And his injury history would make for a nice mystery movie of the week.

Regardless of why he was always out, he was always out. That makes him a wasted pick and the fact we actually had to add value in order to get another team to take him should show that other teams felt the same way about him.
 

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Here is another interesting what-if. What if Ainge had stayed on Paxson? Someone explained to me what I had never known: that Horace Grant had an open layup and that's what Ainge wanted to prevent. I think the Suns should have risked Grant's layup, because they were up by three and the layup was worth only two. If the Suns could have avoided fouling.
The Suns were up 2. And the only reason Ainge had to drop down to Grant was Barkley tried to play hero ball on D and got way out of position trying to make a steal on Pippen. That sent everyone scrambling.
 
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The Suns were up 2. And the only reason Ainge had to drop down to Grant was Barkley tried to play hero ball on D and got way out of position trying to make a steal on Pippen. That sent everyone scrambling.
The entire final minute was a total debacle. With a minute left up for they can’t get it to Barkley and Majerle ends up jacking up a 30 footer, Barkley gets an incredible rebound and gets fouled. Frank Johnson gets an open shot that would’ve put them up 6. Instead he bricks it and MJ goes 94 ft uncontested to cut it to within two. Next possession Frank Johnson ends up with it again and Majerle shoots literally one of the worst baseline jumpers you will ever see. Brick, Bulls ball and the rest his history. It was the definition of pedigree vs nerves
 
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I say there are what-ifs more interesting than that, if not as "big." Try this one: What if Richard Dumas hadn't used drugs in 1993 and so the Suns had successfuly traded him to the Detroit Pistons for Dennis Rodman? Instead of a starting frontcourt of Charles Barkley and A.C. Green, there would have been Charles Barkley and Dennis Rodman. (I wonder whether Green would have signed anyway and come off the bench.)
Those kind of what ifs are changing a person’s brain chemistry. I’m just talking about fluke injuries and coinflips. Amare wasn’t perfect but nobody doubted that he was on a superstar arc at that point.
 
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The entire final minute was a total debacle. With a minute left up for they can’t get it to Barkley and Majerle ends up jacking up a 30 footer, Barkley gets an incredible rebound and gets fouled. Frank Johnson gets an open shot that would’ve put them up 6. Instead he bricks it and MJ goes 94 ft uncontested to cut it to within two. Next possession Frank Johnson ends up with it again and Majerle shoots literally one of the worst baseline jumpers you will ever see. Brick, Bulls ball and the rest his history. It was the definition of pedigree vs nerves
What was Frank Johnson even doing there at the end of the game?
 

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The entire final minute was a total debacle. With a minute left up for they can’t get it to Barkley and Majerle ends up jacking up a 30 footer, Barkley gets an incredible rebound and gets fouled. Frank Johnson gets an open shot that would’ve put them up 6. Instead he bricks it and MJ goes 94 ft uncontested to cut it to within two. Next possession Frank Johnson ends up with it again and Majerle shoots literally one of the worst baseline jumpers you will ever see. Brick, Bulls ball and the rest his history. It was the definition of pedigree vs nerves
Even worse… Majerle’s shot was a fall away ten footer from the baseline… that was an air ball that drew a shot clock violation.

Best part of all the above not mentioned was after Barkley got that aforementioned rebound and called timeout, Westphaul came out to greet his players coming to the bench with a MOCK CHOKE SIGN.

Good times.
 

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Here is another interesting what-if. What if Ainge had stayed on Paxson? Someone explained to me what I had never known: that Horace Grant had an open layup and that's what Ainge wanted to prevent. I think the Suns should have risked Grant's layup, because they were up by three and the layup was worth only two. If the Suns could have avoided fouling.
We had Tom Chambers on that team and he was in a horrible shooting slump. TC shoots anywhere near his career shooting average that series would have easily been won by the Suns. The Bulls were able to play off TC, and double other players. I know guys don't want to pile on a guy in a shooting slump, but he was a former scoring champ.
 

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And what if Danny Manning hadn't torn his ACL in 1995? I believe the Suns would probably have had enough firepower to defeat Hakeem Olajuwon.

I still believe this season was the Suns best chance at a Championship. If Manning doesn’t go down I think we cruise to the title.
 

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I still believe this season was the Suns best chance at a Championship. If Manning doesn’t go down I think we cruise to the title.
Same. I think if Charles doesn’t mess up his knee right before halftime Game 6 of the Rockets series we win the title. He had 27 points at half and was doing everything… had the up and under moves, power back downs, taking three guys off the dribble in the halfcourt and dunking in traffic.

But then messed up his knee, couldn’t do much in the second half and in Game 7, he dragged his breaking down body up and down the court. Still somehow had 17 points and 23 rebounds, but was just a shell of himself.
 
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Same. I think if Charles doesn’t mess up his knee right before halftime Game 6 of the Rockets series we win the title. He had 27 points at half and was doing everything… had the up and under moves, power back downs, taking three guys off the dribble in the halfcourt and dunking in traffic.

But then messed up his knee, couldn’t do much in the second half and in Game 7, he dragged his breaking down body up and down the court. Still somehow had 17 points and 23 rebounds, but was just a shell of himself.
I remember there being discussions of him retiring before that season because of back troubles. He was a beast playing thru injuries but you wonder how many of them could’ve been prevented if he took better care of himself.

He always had thick legs but you could tell his weight would fluctuate because of his upper body. His first year he was in the best shape of his career.

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I remember there being discussions of him retiring before that season because of back troubles. He was a beast playing thru injuries but you wonder how many of them could’ve been prevented if he took better care of himself.
Exactly! Back then I heard people offer suggestions that he hurt his back through a bad golf stance. Nonsense. It was surely because he put a 6-10" player's weight on his 6-4 1/2 frame.

Although someone else pointed out to me that many of his injuries were caused by him banging under the basket with much taller players.

Also, what you stated makes me want to stop calling Barkley lazy without any qualifications. He was, but...he wasn't, if he would will himself to get 23 rebounds when injured.
 

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Exactly! Back then I heard people offer suggestions that he hurt his back through a bad golf stance. Nonsense. It was surely because he put a 6-10" player's weight on his 6-4 1/2 frame.

Although someone else pointed out to me that many of his injuries were caused by him banging under the basket with much taller players.

Also, what you stated makes me want to stop calling Barkley lazy without any qualifications. He was, but...he wasn't, if he would will himself to get 23 rebounds when injured.
Charles might have had questionable habits outside of the work place but when that game clock was running, he was the antithesis of lazy.
 
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Here is another what-if. What if Jerry Colangelo hadn't made the horrendous mistake of trading Dan Majerle for Hot Rod Williams in the 1995 offseason?

Here is why I believe that trade ruined the last Charles Barkley team. It wasn't about Williams, it was about the effect of team chemistry. Everyone knows that Barkley and Kevin Johnson failed to get along very well. I figured out that because they both got along well with Dan Majerle, Majerle was probably the bridge between them among teammates. Especially since JC had also traded away Kevin Johnson's buddy Mark West, the other possible bridge, in 1994. By now trading Majerle, Colangelo burned the last bridge; and the fragile chemistry between Barkley and Johnson imploded, so that they openly feuded in 1995-96. I remember seeing Barkley chuck bad shots and pick up lots of flagrant fouls; he was playing frustrated, and I wonder whether he was even pouting.
 
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Charles might have had questionable habits outside of the work place but when that game clock was running, he was the antithesis of lazy.
And what of when the game clock wasn't running? Did he use that time to condition himself as well as possible? That was what I had in mind. The work didn't stop with the game clock.
 

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Here is another what-if. What if Jerry Colangelo hadn't made the horrendous mistake of trading Dan Majerle for Hot Rod Williams in the 1995 offseason?

Here is why I believe that trade ruined the last Charles Barkley team. It wasn't about Williams, it was about the effect of team chemistry. Everyone knows that Barkley and Kevin Johnson failed to get along very well. I figured out that because they both got along well with Dan Majerle, Majerle was probably the bridge between them among teammates. Especially since JC had also traded away Kevin Johnson's buddy Mark West, the other possible bridge, in 1994. By now trading Majerle, Colangelo burned the last bridge; and the fragile chemistry between Barkley and Johnson imploded, so that they openly feuded in 1995-96. I remember seeing Barkley chuck bad shots and pick up lots of flagrant fouls; he was playing frustrated, and I wonder whether he was even pouting.
At that point, a trade needed to be made. The back to back blown series against Houston and Majerle becoming Blunder Dan in them begged for a change. But the change they made was a disaster.
 
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