Suns Off-season Thread

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm just curious why you think only losing McGee but, as Mainstreet said, and getting Dario (as well as the rest) back makes us all that much more worse?

I just admitted I hadn’t factored saric in. And I don’t think we are “much more worse,” just worse. We win 64 games. I could see the team winning 58 in mcgees absence. That’s worse but it’s not like I’m predicting a disaster.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don’t know how you can say we didn’t get worse when we replaced mcgee with jock landale. On a per minute basis mcgee had an outstanding season. Like you think everyone here is unduly impacted by the suns late season failures I think you minimize mcgees impact for the same reason.

Javale was great for us until he wasn't. But it didn't just happen in the postseason. Losing him still hurts but I think Biyombo and Dario can make up for most of what we lose with him gone. And if I said or implied that "you guys" are unduly impacted by the way we finished, I apologize. I truly believe all of us were and probably still are unduly impacted by it.

I was devastated by our performance and our behavior. A part of me just felt like walking away from sports completely. And I'm not blinded either, I know this team has flaws and without some improvement will likely face a similarly early exit this next postseason. I just don't see any likely changes that will improve our future as much as continuity and player development might.

I have no confidence that either approach (running it back vs significantly reworking the roster) will put us where we want to be. But I think running it back has as good of a chance of making us a true contender as a rebuild on the fly would and it has far less risk. I don't want to return to the McD roster churning days where every year set us back further.

I know this isn't the popular view here but I believe JJ had two viable options once it became clear that trading for Durant wasn't feasible. He could either start the rebuild our postseason suggested we need or he could try and make minor upgrades to the team that won 64 games. If our exit was a fluke, he'll look like a genius and if it wasn't a fluke he'll look like a fool.

 

[Hoop Head]

I don’t know how you can say we didn’t get worse when we replaced mcgee with jock landale. On a per minute basis mcgee had an outstanding season. Like you think everyone here is unduly impacted by the suns late season failures I think you minimize mcgees impact for the same reason.

I keep seeing this mentioned but no one is saying that when discussing how to cover for McGee. Bismack will play a bigger role, he'll see more minutes and produce more than he did last year as a 3rd stringer. I trust he can be a solid backup to Ayton. Jock needs to fill in the role Bismack had last year, being available in case of an injury or serious foul trouble. He won't see much time.

Plus Dario will see minutes at Center as well. McGee won't be a huge loss.

 

[overseascardfan]

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Wouldn't mind having a core of Ayton, Bridges, Johnson and Booker post Paul era. Draft picks and scouting are going to be vital for PHX going forward as they are going to be above cap for next few years so finding a PF, PG and bench depth on cheap rookie level contracts is the way to make sure you always have a competitive team. It's GS plan for post Curry era with Wiseman, Poole, Kuminga and Moody plus the kid they drafted this year, Baldwin who if he can stay healthy and develop could be a steal where they got him.

 

[Mainstreet]

Wouldn't mind having a core of Ayton, Bridges, Johnson and Booker post Paul era. Draft picks and scouting are going to be vital for PHX going forward as they are going to be above cap for next few years so finding a PF, PG and bench depth on cheap rookie level contracts is the way to make sure you always have a competitive team. It's GS plan for post Curry era with Wiseman, Poole, Kuminga and Moody plus the kid they drafted this year, Baldwin who if he can stay healthy and develop could be a steal where they got him.

I wouldn't count on the Suns building through the draft. They don't seem focused or patient on developing young talent that way.

As I recall, James Jones referred to them as "skeletons."

 

[overseascardfan]

I wouldn't count on the Suns building through the draft. They don't seem focused or patient on developing young talent that way.

As I recall, James Jones referred to them as "skeletons."

They may not have a choice, either scrape vet minimum market and hope they pan out or scout and develop young, cheap talent from draft for long term success. They did that already with Ayton, Bridges & Johnson so they know that route works.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And a lousy playoffs. It's very possible that Landale will be more effective for us in the playoffs when it really matters.

Again, almost everyone had a lousy playoffs. I mean, does that mean we think Lee could very possibly be better than Cam Johnson? That’s in essence what your comp is with Jock Londale very possibly being more effective when it matters.

I mean, Jock Londale… come on. He’s never produced for anyone, while McGee has been a consistent a solid off the bench producer for multiple title winners and for us for the majority of a 64 win season. Thinking that some do nothing, career journeyman who signed for peanuts is very possibly going to do anything for this team is a stretch in of itself. Thinking he very possibly could help us more than McGee is straight up preposterous.

 

[Mainstreet]

They may not have a choice, either scrape vet minimum market and hope they pan out or scout and develop young, cheap talent from draft for long term success. They did that already with Ayton, Bridges & Johnson so they know that route works.

It's a lot easier to build when a team has early draft picks to use or trade.

Of course, the Suns stubbed their toe in the 2020 draft with the 10th pick.

They traded their 2021 first round pick for Landry Shamet.

 

[Ronin]

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[overseascardfan]

It's a lot easier to build when a team has early draft picks to use or trade.

Of course, the Suns stubbed their toe in the 2020 draft with the 10th pick.

They traded their 2021 first round pick for Landry Shamet.

Thanks for providing examples for my point. Smith showed signs of what he can become before Jones shipped him off for a second go round with Craig that didn't pan out. Jones may never admit moving Smith was a bad call but I guarantee he would love to have Smith at $5M a year for next 3 years.

Late / second round picks are where PHX should be for next couple of years at least but take 2021 draft as example. Guys like Bones Hyland (26), Cam Thomas (#27), Herbert Jones (#35), Ayo Dosunmu (#38), Luka Garza (#52) & Charles Bassey (#53) are kids who can develop into rotation guys, hell Herbert Jones will probably start for NO next year after an impressive rookie year.

 

[Mainstreet]

Thanks for providing examples for my point. Smith showed signs of what he can become before Jones shipped him off for a second go round with Craig that didn't pan out. Jones may never admit moving Smith was a bad call but I guarantee he would love to have Smith at $5M a year for next 3 years.

Late / second round picks are where PHX should be for next couple of years at least but take 2021 draft as example. Guys like Bones Hyland (26), Cam Thomas (#27), Herbert Jones (#35), Ayo Dosunmu (#38), Luka Garza (#52) & Charles Bassey (#53) are kids who can develop into rotation guys, hell Herbert Jones will probably start for NO next year after an impressive rookie year.

I enjoy the draft and think it's a great source of talent but management has to be committed to finding and developing it. The Miami Heat have proven there are even a lot of undrafted free agents out there who can play. Phoenix missed out on Luguentz Dort who was going to school right down the road.

The Suns should have kept Jalen Smith. It frustrates me they didn't pick up his option and later traded him for Torrey Craig. He should develop into a nice player. They made an even bigger mistake mistake in the 2020 draft by not drafting a potential PGOTF.

Now the Suns have another opportunity to develop a young an undrafted point guard in Duane Washington Jr. who is on a two-way contract. I hope they give him every opportunity.

 

[Ronin]

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[Fumats20]

Thanks for providing examples for my point. Smith showed signs of what he can become before Jones shipped him off for a second go round with Craig that didn't pan out. Jones may never admit moving Smith was a bad call but I guarantee he would love to have Smith at $5M a year for next 3 years.

Late / second round picks are where PHX should be for next couple of years at least but take 2021 draft as example. Guys like Bones Hyland (26), Cam Thomas (#27), Herbert Jones (#35), Ayo Dosunmu (#38), Luka Garza (#52) & Charles Bassey (#53) are kids who can develop into rotation guys, hell Herbert Jones will probably start for NO next year after an impressive rookie year.

It probably shocked the Suns that had they played Smith just 15-20 minutes & paid him just his rookie salary he would have come back. That's basically what Indiana did. They played him enough to show him he would get time yet hid him in plain sight by limiting his minutes and playing 28 different lineups so 2 ways & repeat 10 days could get run while they watched what they had to see who they keep and what they needed when draft time came.

What is even crazy is Indiana was trying to trade Smith to Denver too then got stuck with him and from what they saw (including in practice) they said publicly he is their starting power forward, a more traditional power forward they havent had in a while. That's why when Jones said after KD fell thru that he was looking for a post up forward, I laughed because Jones knows too because he said the same thing when he drafted Smith. And I knew he was trolling Monty because Monty's power forwards are small forwards & wings...and Smith was ranked nationally in the top 5 in both the Center (#4) & Poward (#3) postions. Everybody talks about who the Suns should have picked but what if they did. That means Smith would have gone to the teams that actual knew who he was. So I always thought Jones knew but Monty didn't and winning said there was no need when Jones gave Monty all the vets he needed.

It probably made Jones smile that Smith circle per Carlise said they didn't want Smith skipping steps & claiming something he hadn't earned yet...showing they understood the processs...leading to Smith always talking highly of his experience & continuesous support he receives with the Suns.

The fans & the media & draft Twitter stay mad and will be still be mad for eternity about the pick but Smith found a home to show why he was a top draft prospect in college and the Suns watching from afar still still watching his develop as he gets old like they like. It's the craziest dynamics I've seen.

After being historically embarrassed you would think Smith be like "F" the Suns and the Suns be like what a waste of time....but NOPE.

 

[Phrazbit]

How many agree with me that it's probably just money that leads the FO to continually refuse (apparently) to sign the two good garbage-pile point-guard prospects available, Dennis Schroder and Kemba Walker? I don't know the particulars of the status Walker's knee (or what the injury was in the first place); but if it can be rehabbed and kept healthy, the famous Suns medical staff would do it. He probably just won't take the sort of money that Damion Lee, Josh Okogie, etc. accepted.

Schroder...he's no Chris Paul but he's obviously better than Payne. But didn't Schroder have to take a huge pay cut to have an NBA job at all, last season? I'm supposing that he did so only reluctantly and resentfully. He probably drew a line and refused to accept another minimum.

And the Suns' financial status...that's even more significant. They were already paying luxury tax, and then the Pacers' offer forced them to give Ayton a huge contract that they can only hope he'll earn. I bet they aren't willing to offer anyone at all more than minimum salary right now. If even that. After the last wave of minimum contracts, perhaps Robert Sarver said "Enough. I don't care who's available, I'm not paying another cent. We're going with who we've got." Even if Walker, Schroder or other prospects actually would take minimum deals.

No.

Walker can't stay on the court and Cam Payne is, by almost any measure, a better player than Schroder. Schroder sucks and is toxic.

There are 29 other teams and none of them have signed those two guys either.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Javale was great for us until he wasn't. But it didn't just happen in the postseason. Losing him still hurts but I think Biyombo and Dario can make up for most of what we lose with him gone. And if I said or implied that "you guys" are unduly impacted by the way we finished, I apologize. I truly believe all of us were and probably still are unduly impacted by it.

I was devastated by our performance and our behavior. A part of me just felt like walking away from sports completely. And I'm not blinded either, I know this team has flaws and without some improvement will likely face a similarly early exit this next postseason. I just don't see any likely changes that will improve our future as much as continuity and player development might.

I have no confidence that either approach (running it back vs significantly reworking the roster) will put us where we want to be. But I think running it back has as good of a chance of making us a true contender as a rebuild on the fly would and it has far less risk. I don't want to return to the McD roster churning days where every year set us back further.

I know this isn't the popular view here but I believe JJ had two viable options once it became clear that trading for Durant wasn't feasible. He could either start the rebuild our postseason suggested we need or he could try and make minor upgrades to the team that won 64 games. If our exit was a fluke, he'll look like a genius and if it wasn't a fluke he'll look like a fool.

Other than a swing at Durant I don’t think it had to be stand pat or rebuild. There’s a world between that could have been explored but hasn’t been.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Other than a swing at Durant I don’t think it had to be stand pat or rebuild. There’s a world between that could have been explored but hasn’t been.

Yeah. I thought what was presented was a false choice as far as JJ’s options this off-season.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Other than a swing at Durant I don’t think it had to be stand pat or rebuild. There’s a world between that could have been explored but hasn’t been.

True but my point was that if our ending was a fluke, all we really needed was minor improvements this season but if it wasn't a fluke then minor improvements weren't going to make a diffence.

Sure, it would be great to acquire another star or a true power forward but short of sending out significant roster value, those changes weren't likely to happen. I think we can still upgrade the backup PG spot without disrupting the team but adding players like Bojan at the expense of Jae don't move the needle for me.

 

[Cheesebeef]

True but my point was that if our ending was a fluke, all we really needed was minor improvements this season but if it wasn't a fluke then minor improvements weren't going to make a diffence.

Sure, it would be great to acquire another star or a true power forward but short of sending out significant roster value, those changes weren't likely to happen. I think we can still upgrade the backup PG spot without disrupting the team but adding players like Bojan at the expense of Jae don't move the needle for me.

Sure… but we didn’t make even minor improvements and we lost a good big man and depth off the bench… no matter how many people want to take a dump on McGee now.

I also think people are pumping up Biz as well. He came off the street and balled great for two weeks… then was pretty bad and totally fell out of the rotation for the rest of the season, save the spot duty here and there. Then he played well when initially given the chance in the playoffs, but ended up sucking air like the rest of the team during the collapse.

Bottom line is there is a reason Biz is gonna make league min again this season while McGee makes 7 million.

Biz is a downgrade from McGee and Londale is a downgrade from Biz. Hopefully Dario adds something but it’s not gonna be as far as beef up front is concerned.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Sure… but we didn’t make even minor improvements and we lost a good big man and depth off the bench… no matter how many people want to take a dump on McGee now.

I wasn't bowled over by the 4 guys we added but I wasn't pissed at the signings either. I'll take a wait and see attitude on all of them. I wish we could have kept Javale, he certainly won some games for his last season but he turns 35 in January and I don't see it as a huge loss.

On the plus side, it seems like most of the world had DA all the way out the door and yet we have him signed to a much more reasonable deal than expected prior to last season. Also, re-signing Biyombo for just under 3 million was a solid offseason.

 

[Covert Rain]

Sure… but we didn’t make even minor improvements and we lost a good big man and depth off the bench… no matter how many people want to take a dump on McGee now.

I also think people are pumping up Biz as well. He came off the street and balled great for two weeks… then was pretty bad and totally fell out of the rotation for the rest of the season, save the spot duty here and there. Then he played well when initially given the chance in the playoffs, but ended up sucking air like the rest of the team during the collapse.

Bottom line is there is a reason Biz is gonna make league min again this season while McGee makes 7 million.

Biz is a downgrade from McGee and Londale is a downgrade from Biz. Hopefully Dario adds something but it’s not gonna be as far as beef up front is concerned.

This. It's fans trying to talk themselves into the Suns current situation. We are still contenders but have not done much to improve our prospects.

 

[AzStevenCal]

This. It's fans trying to talk themselves into the Suns current situation. We are still contenders but have not done much to improve our prospects.

We'll see. I have no idea if we're still contenders. I think it's almost as likely that we start moving key players after this next season. I hate to beat a dead horse but IMO, either our ending was injury/covid related or this roster is too flawed to be fixed by anything short of a major overhaul.

 

[Chaplin]

Sure… but we didn’t make even minor improvements and we lost a good big man and depth off the bench… no matter how many people want to take a dump on McGee now.

I also think people are pumping up Biz as well. He came off the street and balled great for two weeks… then was pretty bad and totally fell out of the rotation for the rest of the season, save the spot duty here and there. Then he played well when initially given the chance in the playoffs, but ended up sucking air like the rest of the team during the collapse.

Bottom line is there is a reason Biz is gonna make league min again this season while McGee makes 7 million.

Biz is a downgrade from McGee and Londale is a downgrade from Biz. Hopefully Dario adds something but it’s not gonna be as far as beef up front is concerned.

Biz isn't that much of a downgrade, but yes, he is a downgrade. We'll never know how much a downgrade for the playoffs though, considering McGee was a net negative every time he touched the floor.

Even with Dario, rim protection will be our biggest issue, but can you remember just one game where McGee's presence actually won us the game? I'm sure there were one or two, but I definitely don't remember them.

Dallas has given McGee the chance of a starting role. There was no way we were going to be able to offer that, and we wouldn't have paid him 7m per either. The Suns knew of that potentiality and still didn't do anything to try to retain him. AND that is with us not being serious in Durant talks. Sure, the word at the time was that McGee didn't want to wait for the Suns to figure the Durant thing out, but the Suns were OBVIOUSLY going to match Ayton and it looks like there was never anything serious about Durant, so it's not as simple as the Suns lost him because we were too busy waiting on KD.

And at the time, we had NO centers other than Dario on the roster. If we thought he was that big of a difference maker, we would have come up with a way to keep him.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Biz isn't that much of a downgrade, but yes, he is a downgrade. We'll never know how much a downgrade for the playoffs though, considering McGee was a net negative every time he touched the floor.

Even with Dario, rim protection will be our biggest issue, but can you remember just one game where McGee's presence actually won us the game? I'm sure there were one or two, but I definitely don't remember them.

Dallas has given McGee the chance of a starting role. There was no way we were going to be able to offer that, and we wouldn't have paid him 7m per either. The Suns knew of that potentiality and still didn't do anything to try to retain him. AND that is with us not being serious in Durant talks. Sure, the word at the time was that McGee didn't want to wait for the Suns to figure the Durant thing out, but the Suns were OBVIOUSLY going to match Ayton and it looks like there was never anything serious about Durant, so it's not as simple as the Suns lost him because we were too busy waiting on KD.

And at the time, we had NO centers other than Dario on the roster. If we thought he was that big of a difference maker, we would have come up with a way to keep him.

There were probably a dozen games where his presence saved the day for us prior to acquiring Biyombo in early January. Keep in mind, Ayton missed 24 games last season and until we signed BB we had no real backup other than McGee. I know he was huge for us in wins against Houston, New Orleans (twice I believe), Memphis and Indiana but I'm sure there were several more.

 

[Ronin]

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[Ronin]

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