Suns @ Lakers Tuesday game thread, 12-5-2023 - West Quarterfinal, In-Season Tournament

Suns_fan69

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Booker turnovers are bad, but KD turnovers are cringe-worthy. He does it a lot in the 4th quarter and it's like he gets scared and makes a horrendously bad pass straight to the other team which leads to an instant layup. Yuta does this as well. 4 point turnaround when we can least afford it. It's like our players are frozen and don't realize one of our players is in trouble, double-teamed and they refuse to run over into open space to receive a pass and make it easier for our double-teamed player. See it every game. We have no 4th quarter player motion.
Part of the issue with Point Book is that when he starts possessions with the ball, it's a lot easier for teams to focus the defensive intensity on him. I'd love to see Phoenix pull some of the offball sets for Devin last year where he'd get the ball coming off the screen and have the defense already bent out of shape chasing him.
 

95pro

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Part of the issue with Point Book is that when he starts possessions with the ball, it's a lot easier for teams to focus the defensive intensity on him. I'd love to see Phoenix pull some of the offball sets for Devin last year where he'd get the ball coming off the screen and have the defense already bent out of shape chasing him.

I said this during the game that it was nice to see someone else bring up the ball and initiate. We can’t just run the same thing over and over, must be Kevin Young’s design since it’s repeating like last year even though almost all new personnel.
 

1982baskets

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The main thing I see that is holding the Suns back from being a powerhouse is their defense - lack of length. Even on the last few baskets, you can tell that Allen just isn't long enough to make strong contests. We have length/size with Durant/Nurk inside. But we lack length on the perimeter. You need length on the perimeter to challenge shots. We have smalls - Gordon, Allen, Book all playing the 3/2/1.

This is a roster thing. Did not build a roster with a legit starting level 3. While Allen/Gordon are starting worthy, they are basically 2s. We need a starting level 3, who fits in with Beal/Book/Durant/Nurk. No one earth shattering, just a player that can give you those needed shot challenging on defense, and decent enough offense that he is playing around those 4.

I feel if James Jones makes just one move like that, we have Beal back too, then we're going to be there and be able to beat the top teams in the West. One of the biggest problems is that Vogel can't really put forth an effective consistent defense without that length. You can see it in our execution. We're missing that length on the perimeter.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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The main thing I see that is holding the Suns back from being a powerhouse is their defense - lack of length. Even on the last few baskets, you can tell that Allen just isn't long enough to make strong contests. We have length/size with Durant/Nurk inside. But we lack length on the perimeter. You need length on the perimeter to challenge shots. We have smalls - Gordon, Allen, Book all playing the 3/2/1.

This is a roster thing. Did not build a roster with a legit starting level 3. While Allen/Gordon are starting worthy, they are basically 2s. We need a starting level 3, who fits in with Beal/Book/Durant/Nurk. No one earth shattering, just a player that can give you those needed shot challenging on defense, and decent enough offense that he is playing around those 4.

I feel if James Jones makes just one move like that, we have Beal back too, then we're going to be there and be able to beat the top teams in the West. One of the biggest problems is that Vogel can't really put forth an effective consistent defense without that length. You can see it in our execution. We're missing that length on the perimeter.
That was supposed to be KBD or little. KBD just hasn’t played consistently enough and I’m unsure why we don’t elevate little into the role.
 

Suns_fan69

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That was supposed to be KBD or little. KBD just hasn’t played consistently enough and I’m unsure why we don’t elevate little into the role.
I'd lean more Little or Okogie. I don't think KBD has the footspeed to keep up with some of the faster wings out there. Obviously Okogie gives up a lot of offense, so Little is probably the more appropriate candidate.
 

95pro

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I'd lean more Little or Okogie. I don't think KBD has the footspeed to keep up with some of the faster wings out there. Obviously Okogie gives up a lot of offense, so Little is probably the more appropriate candidate.

KBD doesn’t fill up the stat sheet but he can recover and challenge shots. His standing reach is really surprising.
 

1982baskets

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Yeah I feel you guys on those players having potential to fill those roles, but that's all they are - potential guys. Argument can be made none of those players get minutes on a contender like Denver or Boston.

So with that in mind, I feel this is bad roster building by James. He needs to address the big hole at the perimeter. He created that whole with the Durant trade, then uses pieces to get Beal. Neither of them give you someone at the 3 who can give you length. To be fair it's much harder to get a Beal or a Durant than it is to get that 3/SF who has length, defensive awareness and 3 point shooting. However, we need to make this move if we're serious about a title. Grayson Allen is a good role player, but he's a top 8 rotational player on this team, not a starting 3. Same for Gordon. We need a starting level SF, even when Beal is put into the mix.
 

AzStevenCal

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Yeah I feel you guys on those players having potential to fill those roles, but that's all they are - potential guys. Argument can be made none of those players get minutes on a contender like Denver or Boston.

So with that in mind, I feel this is bad roster building by James. He needs to address the big hole at the perimeter. He created that whole with the Durant trade, then uses pieces to get Beal. Neither of them give you someone at the 3 who can give you length. To be fair it's much harder to get a Beal or a Durant than it is to get that 3/SF who has length, defensive awareness and 3 point shooting. However, we need to make this move if we're serious about a title. Grayson Allen is a good role player, but he's a top 8 rotational player on this team, not a starting 3. Same for Gordon. We need a starting level SF, even when Beal is put into the mix.
I just don't know how you build a better roster after the KD trade than what we have? Especially once it became clear how little trade value DA had. This isn't even close to a perfect team and chances are we exit quickly and we might even fall short of the playoffs. But if we get our big 3 fully healthy and keep the other guys upright also, we'd have an outside chance to win it all. I don't think we could have hoped for more than that having failed on so many draft picks.
 

Suns_fan69

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Argument can be made none of those players get minutes on a contender like Denver or Boston.
Here's the roster for those 2 teams, ordered by minutes played.

You don't think Okogie, Little or KBD would get minutes over say Peyton Watson? Strawther? Payton Pritchard?

With Beal out the majority of the season, and KD/Book also missing time, the rotation has been out of whack a bit and the aforementioned are probably getting a lot more time than they would normally, but I think these guys would absolutely get regular season minutes on contenders.

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Cheesebeef

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Reality is we needed ONE of the minimum salaried guys to become a dependable, game in, game out contributor and none of them stepped forward to be that guy.

Okogie is the true disappointment. He didn’t need to become a knock down three point shooter. Just an AVERAGE one to make teams pay on doubles, who wouldn’t kill an offensive set becoming afraid to even shoot the ball. But he couldn’t do that. Sucks.
 

Suns_fan69

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Reality is we needed ONE of the minimum salaried guys to become a dependable, game in, game out contributor and none of them stepped forward to be that guy.

Okogie is the true disappointment. He didn’t need to become a knock down three point shooter. Just an AVERAGE one to make teams pay on doubles, who wouldn’t kill an offensive set becoming afraid to even shoot the ball. But he couldn’t do that. Sucks.
I'd say Eric Gordon's been the closest to that, but his defensive effort has really been lacking.

Agree with everything you said about Okogie, too bad that early season streak was a mirage. Phoenix should really invest in a top notch shooting coach if they haven't already, we really need his defense and energy in that starting unit.
 

Cheesebeef

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I'd say Eric Gordon's been the closest to that, but his defensive effort has really been lacking.

Agree with everything you said about Okogie, too bad that early season streak was a mirage. Phoenix should really invest in a top notch shooting coach if they haven't already, we really need his defense and energy in that starting unit.
Oh, I meant the minimum guys outside of Gordon. He’s been what we hoped,.. a microwave Vinny Johnson type. Problem is he’s had to play more of a Joe Dumars role, with way too much playing time because of injuries.

But the Okogie, KBD, Yuta and Metu’s we signed in a bargain bin frenzy at the start of FA are sadly showing most of the time, you get what you pay for.
 

leclerc

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I said this during the game that it was nice to see someone else bring up the ball and initiate. We can’t just run the same thing over and over, must be Kevin Young’s design since it’s repeating like last year even though almost all new personnel.
He sure takes his sweet time to get into the offense. I always have to check the shot clock to see if he made it across half court in time. Is that his PG persona to walk it up or could he maybe try to jog a bit or look to push it if the defense is not 100 % set up?
 

SirStefan32

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I wonder if Book picked that up from CP3? He was really the only good PG that Booker played with, and he is notoriously slow-paced. I am curious as to whether or not Nash could be useful as Booker's point-guard coach.
 

Cheesebeef

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I wonder if Book picked that up from CP3? He was really the only good PG that Booker played with, and he is notoriously slow-paced. I am curious as to whether or not Nash could be useful as Booker's point-guard coach.
I’ve been wondering the same thing.
 

Yuma

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I noticed ALL our guards go to the right or left half court corner to start the offense. Instead of the old days of playing in the middle of the court so you can't get double teamed in the corner. It seems the coaches are telling the players to play this way because ALL of our guards are doing this.
 

Hoop Head

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I wonder if Book picked that up from CP3? He was really the only good PG that Booker played with, and he is notoriously slow-paced. I am curious as to whether or not Nash could be useful as Booker's point-guard coach.

He played with Rubio for a year also, who at the time was the best PG he played with. I can't recall how long he played with Bledsoe but Bledsoe was slow also. Not as slow as CP3 but frustratingly slow because he was actually really good when he pushed the pace but he rarely did.

Booker needs to pick up the pace. I was hoping he'd split PG duties with Beal but that won't happen for a few more weeks so Booker needs to make some adjustments.
 
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