Suns 2019 GM/Front Office Search

[Chaplin]

Here are the known facts:

Three teams involved with the deal. The deal was a debacle. The suns have been the worst managed of the three in their most recent history. The suns were the only club with an interim GM who two years ago was playing.

Each of us have to make up our minds based on these facts as to what we think went down. You seem to support the premise that surely the the guy with little front office experience and Sarver weren’t the issue. I support the opposite premise.

You can’t forget the fact that we arguably ended up the best in the deal.

1) We know we wanted to get rid of Ariza. Washington was interested in him.

2) Wash offered Rivers for him but it wasn’t enough for us.

3) speculation here, but I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility that we asked for Oubre too. Wash balls and asks for multiple picks.

4) Suns say know but still want a deal done because we want to get rid of Ariza and nobody else was showing interest.

5) Wash approaches Memphis and tells us the deal is good and we can get Dillon Brooks. Suns say ok.

6) Memphis says it’s Marshon, not Dillon and the Suns rightly say forget that nonsense.

7) the Suns almost certainly stayed engaged with Washington because we wanted to get rid of Ariza.

8) It’s anyone’s guess why Washington wanted to get rid of Oubre so bad. To me, that is the most confounding thing. But they did and of course the Suns said ok, especially after figuring out Rivers didn’t want to play for us.

The narrative that the Suns somehow were the idiot died in this saga has no real evidence.

Could we have just been lucky? Sure. But I don’t think jumping to your conclusion is the only option.

 

[Hoop Head]

8) It’s anyone’s guess why Washington wanted to get rid of Oubre so bad. To me, that is the most confounding thing. But they did and of course the Suns said ok, especially after figuring out Rivers didn’t want to play for us.

Washington is in cap hell with John Wall's deal and Beal due a big raise, they also had Otto Porter there when that went down. They couldn't afford to keep Oubre so they wanted to get something in return. They figured resigning Ariza would be more manageable since they had a history there and he'd be cheaper than Oubre, who was also a bit inconsistent and didn't have a defined role in Washington.

 

[Cheesebeef]

When did he "basically" say that? That's a pretty major accusation. I don't remember ever hearing that.

pretty major accusation? This was talked about earlier in the season... hell, it was probably even talked about in this thread. Here's the literal quote:

“There’s a perception of what a GM is and what a GM does, that you have to log the hours and open up the laptop. I’ve never purported to be that guy,” Jones told Arnovitz this year.

http://arizonasports.com/story/1909...t-now-gm-james-jones-continues-daunting-task/

 

[Cheesebeef]

Without looking it up, I think James Jones said something to the effect he did not feel it was necessary to be on the laptop all day to be a GM.

I think analytics only tells part of the story.

"or log long hours".

 

[Chaplin]

pretty major accusation? This was talked about earlier in the season... hell, it was probably even talked about in this thread. Here's the literal quote:

“There’s a perception of what a GM is and what a GM does, that you have to log the hours and open up the laptop. I’ve never purported to be that guy,” Jones told Arnovitz this year.

http://arizonasports.com/story/1909...t-now-gm-james-jones-continues-daunting-task/

That doesn’t exactly scream, “I’m not going to take this job seriously.”

 

[Cheesebeef]

That doesn’t exactly scream, “I’m not going to take this job seriously.”

Are you serious? Lol... you scold Ouchie "he's better than that" in your argument with him, then turnaround and literally make something up, putting words in my mouth shifting the goalpost of our argument. I NEVER said he said he won't take the job seriously. I'm afraid he won't take the job AS SERIOUSLY AS THE GREATS AND HE SAID THE SAME THING. Just to refresh your memory... from ONE page ago, here's exactly what I said:

"HE DOESN'T THINK HE NEEDS TO WORK AS HARD AS OTHER GMS"

And that's LITERALLY what he said. He doesn't need to be on the computer or log the long hours like other GMs. That that's not his thing.

Good god... when proven wrong after your ridiculous "pretty major accusation" garbage as if I just made that statement out of thin air, you can just say: "My bad."

I PROMISE you it won't kill you.

 

[Yuma]

"HE DOESN'T THINK HE NEEDS TO WORK AS HARD AS OTHER GMS"

Worked for Trump and now he's President! I mean this jokingly. Not a political statement. Trump has said he doesn't need to prep for meetings since he is the best negotiator ever.

 

[Chaplin]

Are you serious? Lol... you scold Ouchie "he's better than that" in your argument with him, then turnaround and literally make something up, putting words in my mouth shifting the goalpost of our argument. I NEVER said he said he won't take the job seriously. I'm afraid he won't take the job AS SERIOUSLY AS THE GREATS AND HE SAID THE SAME THING. Just to refresh your memory... from ONE page ago, here's exactly what I said:

"HE DOESN'T THINK HE NEEDS TO WORK AS HARD AS OTHER GMS"

And that's LITERALLY what he said. He doesn't need to be on the computer or log the long hours like other GMs. That that's not his thing.

Good god... when proven wrong after your ridiculous "pretty major accusation" garbage as if I just made that statement out of thin air, you can just say: "My bad."

I PROMISE you it won't kill you.

Christ, when did you decide to turn this into some battle personal battle? I did NOTHING TO YOU, and here you go. I’m not sure why you have such bad days that you have to attack. You do it in almost every post. If you don’t like the semantics, then ****** off. Your brother doesn’t need you to swoop in and save him, especially since we weren’t even battling!

Just put me on ignore and get over it. You’re obsessed!

 

[1Sun]

Here are the known facts:

Three teams involved with the deal. The deal was a debacle. The suns have been the worst managed of the three in their most recent history. The suns were the only club with an interim GM who two years ago was playing.

Each of us have to make up our minds based on these facts as to what we think went down. You seem to support the premise that surely the the guy with little front office experience and Sarver weren’t the issue. I support the opposite premise.

Meanwhile, the other two GMs got fired, and Jones got promoted.

 

[BC867]

That doesn’t exactly scream, “I’m not going to take this job seriously.”

Please show where that quote came from. I doubt that Jones ever said that. Again, it's the all-or-nothing exaggeration.

From everything Jones said, he doesn't like the idea of working as hard as most of the GM's in the NBA.

Considering that you get out of it what you put into it, we will continue to bring up the rear.

Even if the defense is that he will delegate the hard work to his assistant, he will not be in a position to
go head-to-head with all of the NBA GM's who spend the time and do the preparation.

The reference to Trump's approach (very similar) is why I made the comparison earlier to Washington, D.C.

Jones has simply not paid his dues to be G.M. and, especially, as the #2 man to Robert Sarver.

The blind leading the blind. As they walk into another wall.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

No he wasn't.



Likely? How likely? McD was in charge before him and supposedly Sarver would direct a lot of moves.



Maybe. Maybe not. Hard to tell with a meddling owner around.



Agreed, but from all sources, Crawford has been huge for the young guys and he is a great role model. More plus than minus.


And it adds an expiring to trade this coming season....meaning the Suns have the option to move Johnson in a package for a star if one is available. Free agency is a pipedream for the Suns right now, so this move might be a huge one when trying to match salaries.


Who knows? Reportedly. Oubre worked out and Ariza sucked.

Luck? Dumping a useless OLD vet for a young player with upside who plays an all around game isn't luck, it's smart roster management.


That's a stretch. I disagree I don't think the Suns would've gotten **** for Chandler.



That's assuming there was a good trade. Without knowing what was available, you can't really judge this part. It's pure speculation.



I blame Sarver more for this than anything, if his meddling is true.



I think the context is that he didn't have to kill himself to get the job done.

Man you’re doing a lot of assumptive apologizing. He was a part of the front office and apparently gathering powering under McD. To argue against his role in the roster and hiring of Igor essentially says he had ZERO experience before McD’s firing which makes him an even worse candidate in my eyes. Also, HE WAS PART OF THE FRONT OFFICE AND ONE IF SARVER’S GUYS, and he didn’t have a hand in it? Cmon.

I said Crawford was a good, albeit limited, signing. In fact, contrary to your reply I didn’t say he was a “minus” at all. Zero. He was seemingly a good mentor from all accounts. But again, cmon how much credit do you get for signing a 39 year old that hadn’t landed on a team whose primary contribution was being a good influence?

A) we have yet to see Jones, or the current staff, make any big time deal; and B) I can’t recall the last time a large expiring contract was seen as much value - I think that’s a notion of the past.

I don’t understand how some of you have convinced yourself that luck didn’t play a role in landing oubre. That wasn’t the guy the suns were supposed to get. We thought we had agreed to take an injured Brooks from Memphis. Had things unfolded as James intended we don’t have oubre. Regardless of whose fault the debacle was, had we not lucked into it being an actual debacle we would have never had oubre, we would have had brooks. We rebounded well from the debacle, but that’s only because jones got lucky that his original deal became a debacle. That’s luck playing a huge role in landing oubre.

You don’t think they get anything for chandler. Other teams saw some residual value in him, so I do. We will never know. But what we do know is jones seemed to cut him without any talk of exploring trade. For any of the guys he cut and whom immediately landed with other clubs. These weren’t undesirables. All three of them landed immediately with clubs. Even late second round picks have some value.

You’re right it’s speculation on the no PG and no PF trade comment. But that’s what a GM is supposed to do . . . find a way to acquire the missing pieces. If we walk away this offseason with no PG and no PF is your response going to be, “well, no one wanted to sign with us and no trade was available” . . . WTF?!? That’s his freaking job. Btw, it’s speculation both ways. You don’t know if a trade was out there for the making. Cripes almost anything that’s said about jones right now, for good or ill, is speculation because he has so little experience and we have so little to point to from him.

He’s the GM of this team. He didn’t have an offseason, but he had a full season. He has to take partial ownership of the second worst record. How you just give him a complete pass is beyond me.

And maaaaaan are you trying to read into his comments. He almost literally said I am not the guy to put in long hours and open the laptop. Reread his quote. Those are actual words he used.

Color me a little surprised that you’re apparently a big enough fan of jones to be doing all these gymnastics responding to a post that essentially stated I was neutral on jones.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

And with how Memphis has handled things this offseason I think they are on par with the Suns as far as being a horribly ran franchise. Any doubt of that was thrown out with how they fired Bickerstaff. Unlike James Jones and being a player 2 years ago their GM was writing for ESPN, John Hollinger, and I'd rather have a player than an ESPN analyst running my team if I was the one hiring someone.

The only reason we know that deal was a debacle is because Woj tried scooping everyone and reporting it before it could even happen. If Woj didn't do that then who knows what fans actually learn of how it played out. The bottom line is we ended up with the best player of the deal so I'll give Jones some credit for that. The other 2 GM's that worked on it are no longer in their positions with Hollinger being moved to an "advisor" position and Washington's GM being fired. So I don't think Jones looks the worst from that situation.

Yup and I gave jones credit for coming outta the debacle smelling the best and turning ariza into oubre. But to ignore the fact that he thought he had a closed a deal for the injured brooks instead of oubre and only after that fell through was he successful in netting oubre is just a tad disingenuous to the truth and facts.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't see how that helped Miami since they brought back Ryan Anderson. I know that Anderson could cost less than Johnson if they decide to waive him this offseason but I believe that's about a $4 million dollar difference. I would say Tyler Johnson is worth $4 million a year based on what we saw that season. Had we kept Anderson and waived him this summer, could we have added someone better than Johnson for $4 million? I don't think so but that's tough to say. As Krang pointed out he can be dealt in a larger deal for a star this summer as his cap number is much higher than $4 million and could help us make a deal with his $18-19 million dollar expiring contract. If we can't trade him at least he's worth keeping around which is more than can be said for Ryan Anderson, who couldn't outplay Dragan Bender at this point.

Lol, $4M alone might not sign someone, but the difference between $10M and $14M to sign someone is 100% material. Trust me, we did the heat a favor. No one else had a deal that the Heat liked so much.

 

[Hoop Head]

Lol, $4M alone might not sign someone, but the difference between $10M and $14M to sign someone is 100% material. Trust me, we did the heat a favor. No one else had a deal that the Heat liked so much.

The difference isn't $10 and $14 million though, it's $19 million and $15 million. The Heat are on the hook for Ryan Anderson's $15 million next year if they waive Anderson, which it's likely they do, if they don't then they're on the hook for $19 million. We're on the hook for Tyler Johnson's $19 million instead of waiving Ryan Anderson and only being on the hook for $15 million. The only favor we did was taking on Ellington in the deal whose contract is up now and doesn't factor into anything any longer. So we're paying $4 million more for Tyler Johnson than we'd be paying Ryan Anderson to go away. We can still stretch Tyler Johnson if we choose and that will create more cap space for us but we're not on the hook for $15 million in dead money like it appeared we would be. So we're paying Tyler Johnson $4 million more than we'd pay Anderson to go away. I don't see that as doing them a favor. We took on Ellington to get the Heat under the tax and they gave us a player who can play for one who has been finished for the last 2 years. I don't see that as doing them a favor and if you do that's your perception but I doubt it's common amongst Suns fans or NBA fans as a whole.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You can’t forget the fact that we arguably ended up the best in the deal.

1) We know we wanted to get rid of Ariza. Washington was interested in him.

2) Wash offered Rivers for him but it wasn’t enough for us.

3) speculation here, but I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility that we asked for Oubre too. Wash balls and asks for multiple picks.

4) Suns say know but still want a deal done because we want to get rid of Ariza and nobody else was showing interest.

5) Wash approaches Memphis and tells us the deal is good and we can get Dillon Brooks. Suns say ok.

6) Memphis says it’s Marshon, not Dillon and the Suns rightly say forget that nonsense.

7) the Suns almost certainly stayed engaged with Washington because we wanted to get rid of Ariza.

8) It’s anyone’s guess why Washington wanted to get rid of Oubre so bad. To me, that is the most confounding thing. But they did and of course the Suns said ok, especially after figuring out Rivers didn’t want to play for us.

The narrative that the Suns somehow were the idiot died in this saga has no real evidence.

Could we have just been lucky? Sure. But I don’t think jumping to your conclusion is the only option.

I’ll state it again, I clearly said we got the best player. It’s like you guys can only read the negative facts I wrote. Good lord. The truth is, we have no evidence who the fool was. What we do know is that three teams were involved with the debacle and one of them was the suns. So it’s 100% accurate to state they were a pet if the egg in the face debacle. Nowhere did I say they were the cause of it or the reason. Man, guys I expect a little better reading comprehension. And btw, what do you think my “conclusion” was? That luck played a major role in oubre’s acquisition? It did! All three teams thought they had consummated a trade. They might not have been in agreement, but they thought they were. And part of that agreement was jones landing an injured brooks, not oubre. It was only because of the wrong brooks component of the trade that we ended up with oubre. If Memphis and the suns had agreed on the brooks we would either have Dillon or MarShon, but we wouldn’t have oubre. That’s a fact, not a conclusion.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That doesn’t exactly scream, “I’m not going to take this job seriously.”

Maybe not to you, but when a guy with little-to-no experience says he’s not going to do what the best in the business do, it sure as hell does to me. A candidate says that to me I show him the door.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Christ, when did you decide to turn this into some battle personal battle? I did NOTHING TO YOU, and here you go. I’m not sure why you have such bad days that you have to attack. You do it in almost every post. If you don’t like the semantics, then ****** off. Your brother doesn’t need you to swoop in and save him, especially since we weren’t even battling!

Just put me on ignore and get over it. You’re obsessed!

You’re right, I don’t need him to do so.

So when you say I made a “major accusation” and then multiple other posters slap the direct quote from jones up here, maybe a little humility on your part is called for. Just saying. I admit when I’m wrong on here all the time. Hasn’t hurt me yet.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The difference isn't $10 and $14 million though, it's $19 million and $15 million. The Heat are on the hook for Ryan Anderson's $15 million next year if they waive Anderson, which it's likely they do, if they don't then they're on the hook for $19 million. We're on the hook for Tyler Johnson's $19 million instead of waiving Ryan Anderson and only being on the hook for $15 million. The only favor we did was taking on Ellington in the deal whose contract is up now and doesn't factor into anything any longer. So we're paying $4 million more for Tyler Johnson than we'd be paying Ryan Anderson to go away. We can still stretch Tyler Johnson if we choose and that will create more cap space for us but we're not on the hook for $15 million in dead money like it appeared we would be. So we're paying Tyler Johnson $4 million more than we'd pay Anderson to go away. I don't see that as doing them a favor. We took on Ellington to get the Heat under the tax and they gave us a player who can play for one who has been finished for the last 2 years. I don't see that as doing them a favor and if you do that's your perception but I doubt it's common amongst Suns fans or NBA fans as a whole.

You misunderstood the point of my comment. It wasn’t that we didn’t get anything outta the deal. I think it was a good deal for us in getting a usable player for a useless player. And agin, I gave jones credit for that (again y’all are ignoring any positive I said and only focusing on the negative). What I meant was, it wasn’t like it was some great deal where we made out like bandits. The heat benefitted from the deal. There wasn’t a reason for them not to make the deal. So in other words while jones got a positive out of it (AS I STATED), it wasn’t like he was a GM wizard in making this deal. He gets credit for making a good deal but let’s nit go crazy and pretend it’s more than it is, a good but limited deal.

 

[Mainstreet]

In the proposed Suns-Memphis-Washington trade or the the Suns-Wizards trade, the Suns were going to come out with either Dillon Brooks or Kelly Oubre. Both solid options.

I thought Oubre was the best player in either proposed trade.

In the hypothetical trade involving Dillon Brooks the Suns might have been thinking Dillon Brooks was under contract (team option) for 2019-20 for the modest amount of $1,618,520.

The Grizzlies were likely thinking the same thing when they backed out of the trade.

 

[Hoop Head]

You misunderstood the point of my comment. It wasn’t that we didn’t get anything outta the deal. I think it was a good deal for us in getting a usable player for a useless player. And agin, I gave jones credit for that (again y’all are ignoring any positive I said and only focusing on the negative). What I meant was, it wasn’t like it was some great deal where we made out like bandits. The heat benefitted from the deal. There wasn’t a reason for them not to make the deal. So in other words while jones got a positive out of it (AS I STATED), it wasn’t like he was a GM wizard in making this deal. He gets credit for making a good deal but let’s nit go crazy and pretend it’s more than it is, a good but limited deal.

I'll agree with that, 100%. What I took exception to was you saying that he did the Heat a favor. Perhaps it did do them a favor but it also did us a favor in using that money in a better way. So it was a good deal for both sides, in a way, because it got the Heat under the tax threshold and it gave us a rotation player for the turd that was Ryan Anderson. I don't believe I'm alone in thinking that contract was stuck with us until we waived him so I do give Jones credit for doing something better with it than just waiving him this offseason. If you think it was a fine trade then I'd agree with that, it's definitely not something that should make or break him but the way you initially worded it is what I took exception to. I should have taken who you are into account more because you aren't one of the people that needlessly bash Jones and claim he's a puppet for Pat Riley and Lebron, like some others do, and reading how you described it initially made it sound like it was coming from one of those posters/people.

 

[Chaplin]

You’re right, I don’t need him to do so.

So when you say I made a “major accusation” and then multiple other posters slap the direct quote from jones up here, maybe a little humility on your part is called for. Just saying. I admit when I’m wrong on here all the time. Hasn’t hurt me yet.

It’s semantics. Forget about it, shouldn’t have even engaged you in the first place, knowing that your attack dog brother would come after me like I killed his dog.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'll agree with that, 100%. What I took exception to was you saying that he did the Heat a favor. Perhaps it did do them a favor but it also did us a favor in using that money in a better way. So it was a good deal for both sides, in a way, because it got the Heat under the tax threshold and it gave us a rotation player for the turd that was Ryan Anderson. I don't believe I'm alone in thinking that contract was stuck with us until we waived him so I do give Jones credit for doing something better with it than just waiving him this offseason. If you think it was a fine trade then I'd agree with that, it's definitely not something that should make or break him but the way you initially worded it is what I took exception to. I should have taken who you are into account more because you aren't one of the people that needlessly bash Jones and claim he's a puppet for Pat Riley and Lebron, like some others do, and reading how you described it initially made it sound like it was coming from one of those posters/people.

Huh, I started that comment with “good low level acquisition of Johnson.” That’s literally a positive comment. It’s like anything positive I included in a stated neutral position was typed in invisible ink.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It’s semantics. Forget about it, shouldn’t have even engaged you in the first place, knowing that your attack dog brother would come after me like I killed his dog.

Semantics? I pretty much stated that jones said he wasn’t ready to put in the time that other GMs do. And he did say that. And you said I made a “major accusation.” Where’s the semantics?!? Ironically you made a major accusation and were proven wrong and still haven’t owned up to it. Sheesh.

 

[Chaplin]

Semantics? I pretty much stated that jones said he wasn’t ready to put in the time that other GMs do. And he did say that. And you said I made a “major accusation.” Where’s the semantics?!? Ironically you made a major accusation and were proven wrong and still haven’t owned up to it. Sheesh.

This is a NARRATIVE THAT HAS BEEN DISCUSSED AD NAUSEUM FOR MONTHS. You know it and I know it. It was a generalization that you took personally, but that’s on you not me. The day of the trade this board was rife with how idiotic this front office was in that trade, making sure to follow up, “It was a good trade,” with, “We lucked into it because we were too idiotic to realize the Grizz were offering Marshon, not Dillon, in the deal.”

I simply said that was speculation after you (and others) have continued this narrative. Again, I shouldn’t have engaged you, my mistake.

 

[1Sun]

This is a NARRATIVE THAT HAS BEEN DISCUSSED AD NAUSEUM FOR MONTHS. You know it and I know it. It was a generalization that you took personally, but that’s on you not me. The day of the trade this board was rife with how idiotic this front office was in that trade, making sure to follow up, “It was a good trade,” with, “We lucked into it because we were too idiotic to realize the Grizz were offering Marshon, not Dillon, in the deal.”

I simply said that was speculation after you (and others) have continued this narrative. Again, I shouldn’t have engaged you, my mistake.

It's a narrative you cannot possibly try to refute unless you just happen to have your memory wiped of what transpired that Friday evening.