Signings, Trades, Rumors including Suns and NBA

[Chaplin]

I think this is one of those conversations where you can justify ringing in on either side.

Monty did tell him to focus on defensive responsibilities and not to worry as much about offense. So the narrative about him sacrificing part of his game has some merit.

But what that side is ignoring is why he was told to focus on defense, it was because of his problems catching the ball and finishing against other bigs. We were wasting a lot of possessions on him and instantly became a much better team the minute we convinced him that defense was going to get him paid the big bucks.

Of course, we are past that point in time where all we need from him is strong team defense. And he showed during the playoffs that when he concentrates he really can be elite on both sides of the ball. Now we just need to figure out how to keep him fully focused. He's getting the max regardless.

I disagree. Telling him not to worry as much about offense doesn't mean, "Don't do what you can do on offense." It means exactly what it means: Don't worry about offense. His offensive skills are a work in progress, but if he spends all his time worrying about whether he's in the right spot, or should he or shouldn't he take a specific shot, or can he back down smaller players, that "worrying" is a lot different than going out there and saying, "I'm not going to shoot this open shot because I'm sacrificing for my defense."

 

[AzStevenCal]

I disagree. Telling him not to worry as much about offense doesn't mean, "Don't do what you can do on offense." It means exactly what it means: Don't worry about offense. His offensive skills are a work in progress, but if he spends all his time worrying about whether he's in the right spot, or should he or shouldn't he take a specific shot, or can he back down smaller players, that "worrying" is a lot different than going out there and saying, "I'm not going to shoot this open shot because I'm sacrificing for my defense."

Take it up with Monty. He's said several times that he asked Ayton to "sacrifice" his offense and focus on his defense. He even said something about hoping his asking for that sacrifice didn't have anything to do with Ayton not getting his max offer.

Ayton has always been capable of being a high volume scorer but we would be nowhere near as good if we kept feeding him in an attempt to make that happen (because of wasted possessions) so in a way it really is a sacrifice. Him scoring 15 with high efficiency is better than him scoring 25 with less than ideal effeciency.

 

[Mainstreet]

Take it up with Monty. He's said several times that he asked Ayton to "sacrifice" his offense and focus on his defense. He even said something about hoping his asking for that sacrifice didn't have anything to do with Ayton not getting his max offer.

Ayton has always been capable of being a high volume scorer but we would be nowhere near as good if we allowed that to happen (because of wasted possessions) so in a way it really is a sacrifice.

If I had to choose, I will take less offense and better defense any day.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If I had to choose, I will take less offense and better defense any day.

Yup. Don't get me wrong, I want it all from DA but if I had to choose it would be his defense.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yup. Don't get me wrong, I want it all from DA but if I had to choose it would be his defense.

I was just thinking the transition fans have made in their thinking about defense (myself in particular) from the days of SSOL under Mike D'Antoni.

 

[Chaplin]

Take it up with Monty. He's said several times that he asked Ayton to "sacrifice" his offense and focus on his defense. He even said something about hoping his asking for that sacrifice didn't have anything to do with Ayton not getting his max offer.

Ayton has always been capable of being a high volume scorer but we would be nowhere near as good if we kept feeding him in an attempt to make that happen (because of wasted possessions) so in a way it really is a sacrifice. Him scoring 15 with high efficiency is better than him scoring 25 with less than ideal effeciency.

Even IF he was "sacrificing" (he isn't), he isn't sacrificing that much. Certainly not enough to affect whether he gets a supermax or not. The guy is a good player still with good potential. It's moronic to think he was sacrificing anything, especially last year when his contract was able to be extended AND this year considering he has the opportunity for still a large contract in the summer.

Why would Monty of all people ask DA to significantly sacrifice anything if he knew it would affect his next contract? That makes zero sense and supports that DA is exactly what he is -- a fantastic defensive anchor with a very inconsistent offensive game. He's not inconsistent because he's intentionally being so, he's inconsistent because he doesn't have the skills (yet) to NOT be inconsistent. If the team isn't teaching him to be consistent, that's on them, but it seems highly unlikely that is the case.

 

[TJ]

What is he sacrificing? Please, let us know. What is he capable of that he isn't doing?

It doesn't matter what so and so says. In fact, it can make it WORSE if they have to handle Ayton's fragile ego by saying they think he's better than he's actually showing on the court. That's something armchair fans say.

DA SHOULD be better than he has shown. To imply that he's purposely not doing it is a joke.

It does matter because the three I referenced happen to be arguably the three most important people on this team. And no, it has nothing to do with anyone's ego. It's just the way it is. This team loves to praise each other for their contributions. it's one of the strengths of this team. When Biyombo plays well, he gets a lot of praise. When Mikal plays well, the team goes out of its way to make sure it;s acknowledged. It can seem disingenuine and exaggerated, but it also shows the chemistry of this team.

Two things can be right at the same time: DA should and could play better and the team doesnt utilize him to his fullest potential. I know he can handle the ball along the perimeter more than just handoffs and screens. I know he can take more outside jumpers. But when you're the best team in the NBA, you dont need that from your center, so I can understand why he's being used the way he's being used.

 

[Muggz]

I would be very surprised and kinda pissed off if the Suns were doing anything but laughing at ANY offers for DA.
Sabonis alongside DA could be magic. Sabonis instead of DA is a huge mistake.
I even want to keep Stix.

Dump Nader, Shamet and Elfrid for anyone that can contribute.
I'd feel bad if we dumped Saric or Frank but... they would still get a ring.

 

[TJ]

I would be very surprised and kinda pissed off if the Suns were doing anything but laughing at ANY offers for DA.
Sabonis alongside DA could be magic. Sabonis instead of DA is a huge mistake.
I even want to keep Stix.

Dump Nader, Shamet and Elfrid for anyone that can contribute.
I'd feel bad if we dumped Saric or Frank but... they would still get a ring.

I feel the same about Crowder that I'd feel bad, but if we could somehow flip him, picks and bench players for Sabonis, that would be excellent. Trading Ayton for the sake of trading him, or that you feel the need to hold onto his value, is suicide.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I would be very surprised and kinda pissed off if the Suns were doing anything but laughing at ANY offers for DA.
Sabonis alongside DA could be magic. Sabonis instead of DA is a huge mistake.
I even want to keep Stix.

Dump Nader, Shamet and Elfrid for anyone that can contribute.
I'd feel bad if we dumped Saric or Frank but... they would still get a ring.

Not going to get Sabonis without giving up one of DA, Mikal, or CamJ

 

[AzStevenCal]

Even IF he was "sacrificing" (he isn't), he isn't sacrificing that much. Certainly not enough to affect whether he gets a supermax or not. The guy is a good player still with good potential. It's moronic to think he was sacrificing anything, especially last year when his contract was able to be extended AND this year considering he has the opportunity for still a large contract in the summer.

Why would Monty of all people ask DA to significantly sacrifice anything if he knew it would affect his next contract? That makes zero sense and supports that DA is exactly what he is -- a fantastic defensive anchor with a very inconsistent offensive game. He's not inconsistent because he's intentionally being so, he's inconsistent because he doesn't have the skills (yet) to NOT be inconsistent. If the team isn't teaching him to be consistent, that's on them, but it seems highly unlikely that is the case.

You misunderstood. Somewhere on this site is a comment from Monty about the fact that he loved DA's willingness to sacrifice and hoped that it had no bearing on a max offer.

Players throughout the history of this league have been asked to sacrifice their individual stats for the benefit of the team. Ayton agreed to do it, Carmelo Anthony declined when George Karl asked.

 

[TJ]

You misunderstood. Somewhere on this site is a comment from Monty about the fact that he loved DA's willingness to sacrifice and hoped that it had no bearing on a max offer.

Players throughout the history of this league have been asked to sacrifice their individual stats for the benefit of the team. Ayton agreed to do it, Carmelo Anthony declined when George Karl asked.

Yep. Ayton isnt some outlier. Chris Bosh had to do the same for the Big 3 in Miami. Kevin Love did the same in Cleveland. Both bigs who had to sacrifice for perimeter players on championship-caliber teams.

Ayton would be a 21+ PPG scorer on Orlando and Detroit easily. Debatable whether or not that would lead to those teams becoming contenders, but highlights the Suns's needs for the many outweighing the needs of the few. There will be games where DA has to score 25 because Booker is off, but that isnt on a night-to-night basis. Just like Mikal can score 5 points in a game and be fine with it. What this team needs from DA is to defend the rim and the other team's big. My concern is whether DA wants to continue this sacrifice while he's in his early-to-mid 20s.

 

[Mainstreet]

Of course Ayton's defense is critical to the Suns success but there are nights where the Suns can't hit the broadside of a barn from 3-point range. This is when the Suns need to turn to him to score and he produce much like when the Suns turn to Chris Paul to score at the end of games.

If Ayton can get to the point of consistently producing points in clutch situations, he will become a superstar.

 

[Chaplin]

You misunderstood. Somewhere on this site is a comment from Monty about the fact that he loved DA's willingness to sacrifice and hoped that it had no bearing on a max offer.

Players throughout the history of this league have been asked to sacrifice their individual stats for the benefit of the team. Ayton agreed to do it, Carmelo Anthony declined when George Karl asked.

The point is, what is he sacrificing? Specifically?

 

[Muggz]

I'm convinced this is the right place for Ayton.
On most nights he's the 3rd or 4th option and that's a good spot for him.
He's not a franchise player that's able to run a team or take over in games on a consistent basis.
He's a well above average center that's still learning. And If not already in time could be the best Suns center ever.
I'd like to see him less injured and in more games for sure. He may be "soft" and isn't as aggressive at the rim as we'd like.
But his numbers don't lie and he's the best defensive center we've ever had.
Give dis man his mooney.

 

[Mainstreet]

Here is something to chew on while pondering trades. Heat and Suns have top 7 rated offense and defense.

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[Finito]

The point is, what is he sacrificing? Specifically?

Touches. How are you even still arguing this? You pretty heard Monty and Paul say the same thing. The national media also says this.

How many times have we seen Ayton just get off to a crazy start and never see the ball again?

As far as inconsistent goes he’s one of the most efficient players in the NBA.

 

[Finito]

Here is something to chew on while pondering trades. Heat and Suns have top 7 rated offense and defense.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

They were saying we fell from #2 to #13 while Ayton and Crowder were out

 

[Suns_fan69]

Even IF he was "sacrificing" (he isn't), he isn't sacrificing that much.

Hard to prove either way, but I disagree that he isn't sacrificing. With this team, he's sacrificing offensive touches for sure. DA mainly gets touches off pick and rolls, either as a pseudo initiator on dribble handoffs, as the roll man, or when it generates a surefire mismatch.

It's not often he gets an opportunity to just operate 1 on 1 in the same way Embiid or Jokic does, either at the post or high elbow. In year 1, DA got a lot more of those, and he ended up settling a lot for elbow jumpers. It wouldn't be hard to imagine him being on a team like Indiana where much more of the offense would start through him.

Note, in no way am I saying DA should be getting more of those looks, those other 2 are far more versatile in their offensive package from either location, but that's part of the issue. The thing DA has sacrificed most is the chance to expand his offensive skillset beyond what he's doing right now.

It's the same reason Jeremi Grant wanted to get out of Denver, because he foresaw that he would never get the opportunity to be the number 1 (or even #2) guy as long as Jokic and Murray were there. He could be the spot-up guy on offense and stalwart on defense for a much better team, but I'm guessing Grant and DA both know that ultimately stellar offensive numbers is what turns heads and gets the $$.

 

[Mainstreet]

They were saying we fell from #2 to #13 while Ayton and Crowder were out

I'd believe it. Both play a huge role in Suns defense.

 

[Chaplin]

My goodness this board is like Jeckyll & Hyde when it comes to Deandre Ayton. Can't discuss anything about him because everyone's opinion changes on him from week to week.

Sacrificing touches. Yeah right. You think Deandre Ayton would - what - demand Chris Paul pass him the ball to get him more touches? Chris Paul will give him the ball if and when he demands it. And he doesn't do that enough. Ask yourselves WHY he doesn't get touches later in the game. Is that by design? Or is it because Ayton is just too damn soft and doesn't put himself in position to earn those touches? Why does he always look more aggressive in the beginning of the game and not later?

CP3 is a master at taking what the defense gives him. He has no problem at all throwing lobs to McGee in the 3rd quarter. Why doesn't he do it to Ayton? Because Monty tells him not to? Come on.

 

[Finito]

My goodness this board is like Jeckyll & Hyde when it comes to Deandre Ayton. Can't discuss anything about him because everyone's opinion changes on him from week to week.

Sacrificing touches. Yeah right. You think Deandre Ayton would - what - demand Chris Paul pass him the ball to get him more touches? Chris Paul will give him the ball if and when he demands it. And he doesn't do that enough. Ask yourselves WHY he doesn't get touches later in the game. Is that by design? Or is it because Ayton is just too damn soft and doesn't put himself in position to earn those touches? Why does he always look more aggressive in the beginning of the game and not later?

CP3 is a master at taking what the defense gives him. He has no problem at all throwing lobs to McGee in the 3rd quarter. Why doesn't he do it to Ayton? Because Monty tells him not to? Come on.

No your just stuck and can’t admit when your wrong.

You’ve pretty much had the entire Suns organization say they’ve asked him to sacrifice on offense and the national media tell you the same thing yet here you are. Nope there all wrong and I’m right. Monty? Wrong.

Look at his FGA there down 5 a game since Paul has been here. We play a TEAM game. Pass up a good shot to get a great shot.

 

[Proximo]

My goodness this board is like Jeckyll & Hyde when it comes to Deandre Ayton. Can't discuss anything about him because everyone's opinion changes on him from week to week.

Sacrificing touches. Yeah right. You think Deandre Ayton would - what - demand Chris Paul pass him the ball to get him more touches? Chris Paul will give him the ball if and when he demands it. And he doesn't do that enough. Ask yourselves WHY he doesn't get touches later in the game. Is that by design? Or is it because Ayton is just too damn soft and doesn't put himself in position to earn those touches? Why does he always look more aggressive in the beginning of the game and not later?

CP3 is a master at taking what the defense gives him. He has no problem at all throwing lobs to McGee in the 3rd quarter. Why doesn't he do it to Ayton? Because Monty tells him not to? Come on.

Mine doesn't, I feel like I have a good understanding of what he is.

His number one priority is to help the team, he has been a very immature guy, but has really shown progress since the birth of his son. Yes he wants to get paid, and has said that since the day we drafted him. While he is not the perfect player you want to max out, he is good enough that the market will max him out, so the Suns need to do it. And I think he will be earning all of it within a couple years.

He has constantly improved every year. It's slower than I would like, and he does have nights where he does not give full effort, but he showed in the playoffs he shows up in big games for the most part.

The reason Ayton does not get touches at the end of the game is simple - CP3 and Booker are the 2 best clutch players in the league, and both shot creators. Ayton can not create his own shot against a good defender - they can.

 

[Weenus O'Baggins]

Biyombo and McGee have no issues getting touches with CP3.

 

[TJ]

Biyombo and McGee have no issues getting touches with CP3.

Not during the 4th quarter when CP3 calls his own number and just starts putting up middies.