Shaq Playing for the Suns?

[PhiLLmattiC]

I like the front court they used against the Kings: Gugliotta, Amare, and Shawn Marion. I think that would be a very good line up to stick with. However, I don't think Fj used it the games after because Googs has back spasms.

 

[notakiddfan1]

It's easy to see that the Suns aren't very good right now

In a way, I do agree with this statement. If I just looked at the Suns as they've played basketball the past 2 months, how could I not agree? However, a question certainly comes to mind, and that is: Why were the Suns, with the same players, winning 65% of their games and holding the 3rd seed in the entire Western Conference before and during December, as they are now struggling to stay above .500 and to hold a playoff spot? That month of January gave us some definate problems, but we're not in January anymore, and we've certainly had some games that we could've, if not should've won. I cannot argue that the Suns don't seem like a great team as we head towards the playoffs, but at one point this season, this same exact Suns team was indeed a very good team.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's stupid to say that this team is bad or it's good. The Suns have not proven that they are consistently either this entire season. To say that the Suns definately deserve a playoff spot is not necesarily a well-founded statement, but it's not unfounded by any stretch of the imagination either. I guess it depends on whether you are an optimist or a pessimist in this situation, but even then that doesn't explain anything. If I was a pessimist, for instance, I might say that the Suns will lose too many games to make the playoffs, but could possibly say that, differently, the Suns will make the playoffs. If I were a pessimist saying this, it would be because the Suns have shown that they can be a great team, but for some reason, be it coaching, leadership, or a combination of the two, we have not been able to get to a point where we will be able to advance in the playoffs anyway. The point would be, then, that we have the talent to advance, as we've shown in the first 2 months of the season, but the lack of the winning element would not let us do so.

 

[schutd]

Originally posted by elindholm
But he was a 240 lb. body, elindholm! And although Kramer played his heart out, he was no match for Sikma at 6'7"- 215.

With several dozen more cheeseburgers and ice cream sundaes, I could probably get to 240. But I wouldn't be a match for Sikma, either.

Bad players are just bad, even if they are large.

ANd with several LESS cheeseburgers and Bourbon and cokes I could get to 240.

 

[elindholm]

The point I'm trying to make is that it's stupid to say that this team is bad or it's good. The Suns have not proven that they are consistently either this entire season.

Um, that means they aren't very good.

Every team in the league, when they play their best, looks pretty good. The Heat swept the season series from Phoenix. Cleveland keeps beating New Jersey. Memphis won six (or was it seven?) in a row. And so on.

All mediocre teams follow the same pattern: some days (or weeks) they look great, and some days they look lousy. It's not a mystery. Consistency is the hardest thing to develop.

If the Suns were really as good as their best days, their record would be better. If they were really as bad as their worst days, their record would be worse. But they are neither -- they are mediocre, and they've been proving that all season long. That's really all there is to it.

I'll admit that I "fell for it" when the Suns got off to their hot start. But that has proved to be a mirage. Their excellent record through the first two months was due to several factors: other teams not taking them seriously, more than a few miraculous finishes, and -- most important, I think -- the league not yet having figured out how to defend Stoudemire. But Stoudemire's limitations are getting exposed on a regular basis now (note that he was not even a factor in the first half of the Mavericks game), and that leaves the Suns one weapon short.

It's easy to see that the Suns aren't very good right now. Deal with it.

 

[BC867]

In Monday's Arizona Republic, Frank Johnson said that he is still learning how to motivate each player on the roster, after a full year of head coaching experience.

I appreciate his honesty. But it illustrates how one expression describes our last four coaches -- OJT!

That's probably the cause of our inconsistency.

Promoting from within is great . . . if you have a good candidate for the top spot. If not, the smart thing to do is bring in outside Head Coaching experience.
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It also sounds like we may not be keeping our Big Man assistant coach beyond one season. Mark Iavoronni is being courted by Cleveland.

 

[elindholm]

Sigh.

Again, I'd love to bring in an experienced coach, and I agree that on the job training is a serious problem. But it doesn't make any sense to blame the inconsistency on the coach. Most teams in the league are inconsistent, including those with very experienced coaches (Rockets/Tomjanovich, Raptors/Wilkins, and most notably Lakers/Jackson).

The problem is that the team isn't very good. Period.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm
Sigh.


The problem is that the team isn't very good. Period.

So what? Either you have hopes for the future, or you don't. If you don't, what's the point of posting on this message board? If you do (which I believe is the case here), then move on. Instead all we get is complaining and lecturing that the team isn't good.

So what? Whatever happened with just enjoying watching Amare develop?

The playoffs would be great, but I'm in no hurry to watch a first round and fold anyway.

 

[elindholm]

So what? Either you have hopes for the future, or you don't. If you don't, what's the point of posting on this message board?

Chaplin, excuse me, but please try to read what I said in the context of the thread. I think a lot of misunderstandings on this board begin when comments are taken out of context and misapplied.

BC867 said that the Suns' downfall is their failure to use their perfectly good starting center, likening Tsakalidis to Bayard Forrest, of all people. I said that I didn't think this was the problem.

BC867 persisted with his argument that, in order to be competitive at the highest level, a team needs a real center. I countered that, while I agreed with his general point, someone who happens to be 7' 2" does not automatically qualify as a real center. The current problems the Suns face run deeper than how many minutes Tsakalidis is given.

Notakiddfan1 then said that it was "stupid" for me to weigh in with an opinion of how good the team was, given their erratic results to this point. I responded by explaining that, by this point of the season, teams have given a pretty good indication of how good they are, specifically by whether they consistently demonstrate particularly good or bad play.

Nowhere did I say that the team was hopeless, that I didn't look forward to Stoudemire's continued development, or even that I don't think the Suns can make the playoffs. And I am getting a little tired of seeing so many posters here face McCarthyism-type charges just for acknowledging that this team isn't very good.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm


Nowhere did I say that the team was hopeless, that I didn't look forward to Stoudemire's continued development, or even that I don't think the Suns can make the playoffs. And I am getting a little tired of seeing so many posters here face McCarthyism-type charges just for acknowledging that this team isn't very good.

And? What is your position? Maybe that's where the confusion is. Yes, you say that the team isn't very good. Ok, and...?

What is it you, elindholm, are looking for from the Suns? Better Center play? Better coaching? It'd be interesting to know, Eric. What is Dr. Lindholm's solution to the Suns woes?

 

[elindholm]

And? What is your position? Maybe that's where the confusion is.

See, that's exactly my point. I was rebutting specific comments by BC867 and t.r.h. The discussion had a very narrow scope, and I was staying within that scope. "Dr. Lindholm's prescription," as you sarcastically put it, has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at had.

But since you asked, here are my top priorities:

Offense: More movement. When the team scores a lot, it's because people are moving without the ball. When they struggle, it's because everyone's standing around.

Defense: More individual responsibility. When a complicated system of "help" defense is in place, I think it can lead to some players not working all that hard to guard their own man, because they can just let him go and count on the "help." The Suns double-team and scramble defensively more than most teams in the league, and yet their defense is below average. Sure, some opponents demand a double, and defenders will occasionally get beat. But I'd be much happier if each individual Sun stood up and said, "My man is not going to score." Who gets the blame for Nash's third quarter, or Nowitzki's fourth? "The team"? That's crap. Someone needs to stand up and say, "That's my man."

As far as the team's talent level goes, they've been up a creek ever since Gugliotta got hurt. When his injury first happened, I said that the Suns would be doomed until they got out of his contract. There's just no way to compete when 1/4 (or so) of your team salary is tied up in a player who contributes zero -- especially when another large chunk is tied up in a player who, while important, does not perform anywhere near max level (that would be Hardaway).

There really is no quick fix. The Suns have made some free-agent signings that have backfired terribly, and now they just have to be patient and ride them out.

The Suns will be able to get better once they escape Gugliotta's contract situation, but not much better, since they have so much money tied up in Hardaway. Their players will continue to improve, but since most teams in the league have young players who are improving, this probably won't lead to a dramatic improvement in the standings. I see the Suns as a low playoff seed over the next two years, which are 03-04 and 04-05. If they haven't been able to go deep into the playoffs by 05-06, then they will be forced to think hard about whether to re-sign Marbury (or trade Marion).

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm
And? What is your position? Maybe that's where the confusion is.

See, that's exactly my point. I was rebutting specific comments by BC867 and t.r.h. The discussion had a very narrow scope, and I was staying within that scope. "Dr. Lindholm's prescription," as you sarcastically put it, has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at had.

Geez, dude, that wasn't supposed to be sarcastic. Sorry if you took it that way. I tried to make it sound not very serious, which is why I put the smiley there.

 

[zett]

Re: It's been awhile . . .

Originally posted by BC867

I'll repeat what I've said before. In the 35 year history of the Suns, there have been just two Assistant Coaches who played Power Forward, none who played Center -- Paul Silas and now Mark Iavarroni. Two in 35 years. That makes a statement about priorities.

Did Al Bianchi play guard? How about Kurt Rambis?He was a guard also wasn't he? your lame attept to get your totaly biased view across is getting old.
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Adams went down with an injury. Instead of putting our legitimate backup Center, Bayard Forrest -- 6'10" 240 -- against Seattle's Jack Sikma (6'11"), who took over? 6'7" Small Forward Joel Kramer. We lost and the Sonics went on to win the NBA Championship as predicted.

for the record bayard Forrest was a legit 7'0 footer but he was the slowest stiff to ever play in the NBA (nice guy but a stiff)

 

[Errntknght]

Okay, NotaKIddfan, I'll reply to some of your points...

Playing time in games is an important part of developing players though the off season, training camp, everyday practices and conditioning/strengthening are also important. I'm not sure the off season as you describe is critical for all players... some people need time away from a demanding sport to recharge their batteries.

As far as our center rotation goes, FJ didn't help the situation at all. Voskuhl is obviously the only center with a future as our backup and the way Frank played him has been atrocious. No consistency at all - when Big Jake went down he should have started Voskuhl every game. Worst case you establish that he's not NBA material. As it is the situation is as muddled as ever - we may need to hustle us a backup center and we may not. Someone like Casey, it doesn't really matter that much but we need to sort out the center spot.

Incidentally, my theory on Casey is that FJ stuffed him the backroom of the dog house for missing that game winning or tying shot from the corner... the one JJ shovled over to him at the last possible second. Since then he hasn't been in the rotation at all. Zip! Bad coaching... LIke I said Casey is not crucial to the team but still that sort of childish crap has no place in the pro game.

I haven't changed my tune about what's the biggest thing wrong with the team - it's FJ, hands down. Makes me ill to watch Utah playing team ball and our guys looking like they're right off the playground. The telling thing is they have not gotten better as a team on offense - young guys and a new offene should show lots of improvement over a season. Instead, nada. Okay, things did improve when FJ let Marbs start to penetrate off the dribble but any idiot would have done that. A coach with a functioning brain would never have cut it out.

I've been reading most of the posts but didn't see much reason to keep re-iterating all Frank's shortcomings. I think it's becoming clearer and clearer that he is not an NBA head coach... even the C's will figure it out eventually. Probaly have to suffer through another year but the trend is so downward letely maybe there's hope for next year. The debate is not about whether we make the playoffs or the lottery - it's whether we get rid of FJ sooner instead of later. For that I wouldn't mind if the guys taked a bit...

On a historical note, I believe the guy that primarily filled in for AA in the Seattle series was the "Cookie Monster" Jeff Cook and not Joel Kramer. Cook did a pretty good job of denying Sikma the ball and position but Jack was hitting when he did get a shot off. On the offensive end was where we were really hurt as AA was a key playmaker. Cook was not huge but he was bigger and stronger than AA, slightly less atheltic and agile. About 6'10 - 6'11 and 240lbs.

 

[BC867]

Originally posted by Errntknght

On a historical note, I believe the guy that primarily filled in for AA in the Seattle series was the "Cookie Monster" Jeff Cook and not Joel Kramer. Cook did a pretty good job of denying Sikma the ball and position but Jack was hitting when he did get a shot off. On the offensive end was where we were really hurt as AA was a key playmaker. Cook was not huge but he was bigger and stronger than AA, slightly less atheltic and agile. About 6'10 - 6'11 and 240lbs.

Actually Errntknght, Jeff Cook didn't join the Suns until the following season -- '79-'80. And although he was 6'10", he was never any heavier than 230.

It was Joel Kramer who was moved to Center over backup Center Bayard Forrest. And we lost the 1979 Western Conference series in seven games to the Sonics . . . who went on to defeat the World Champion Bullets 4-games-to-1.

To this day I believe that if we didn't move our backup Small Forward to Center, we would have defeated the Sonics, then the Bullets for a World Championship.

That's one of the many reasons why this long time Suns fan does not enjoy the Suns legacy of Small Ball, even though some of our fellow posters resent that point of view.

We took Seattle to a tight seventh game without playing a Center. Imagine if we had fielded a complete team.

The 1978-79 season was our best chance ever at a Championship and Management let it slip away!

 

[BC867]

Re: Re: It's been awhile . . .

Originally posted by zett

Originally posted by BC867

I'll repeat what I've said before. In the 35 year history of the Suns, there have been just two Assistant Coaches who played Power Forward, none who played Center -- Paul Silas and now Mark Iavarroni. Two in 35 years. That makes a statement about priorities.
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Did Al Bianchi play guard? How about Kurt Rambis? He was a guard also wasn't he? Your lame attept to get your totaly biased view across is getting old.

Huh?!? I've stood next to Al Bianchi. He's nowhere near a Big Body.

And Kurt Rambis was a tweener -- a light 6'8" who didn't have the offensive skills to play Small Forward, but played alongside a bigger Small Forward (primarily James Worthy).

So even though you call it biased, we've still had only two Big Men on the bench as Assistant Coach in our 35 year history. It's an unbalanced way to run a team, dontcha think?