Shaq Playing for the Suns?

Wally

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It brings a smile to my face thinking about the Suns having a big guy like Shaq playing for the Suns but what if the Suns had Shaq before he had the opportunity to show what he could do? Would he have gotten much PT?:D

The Suns have been fascinated with small-ball since day one and as much as I complain about it, I must enjoy it because I'm still a fan. I would be a lot happier fan if we had a real C that we actually played.
 

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As much as I hated watching Karl Malone eat up Bo Outlaw down the stretch the truth of the matter is that the Suns played as well or better with him in the game than when they played a true center. I'm sure the Phoenix Suns would love to have a good big man they can play at center for 30-40 minutes per game. The truth is a have a below average center rotation, they always have, and that's why they play a lot of small ball.

Joe Mama
 

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rasho needed a few years and now he is a serviceable center.
give jake a few more years and he will polish and accomplish his offensive game to da monster, there's currently now other c in the leage with jakes height and weight (exept shaq and ostertag (don't count))

though i wish jake could dominate a bit more
 
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Wally

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Originally posted by Joe Mama
As much as I hated watching Karl Malone eat up Bo Outlaw down the stretch the truth of the matter is that the Suns played as well or better with him in the game than when they played a true center. I'm sure the Phoenix Suns would love to have a good big man they can play at center for 30-40 minutes per game. The truth is a have a below average center rotation, they always have, and that's why they play a lot of small ball.

Joe Mama

Having a poor center rotation is a direct result from not having a rotation. I believe that players need to develop and need PT to do so. JAKE was responding last year and in my opinion, little jake has a lot of potential. Ford's not a center but he fit's the description of a big guy. Let's face it, the Suns love small-ball.
 

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Funny how you use the words "Below Average"

How many teams have "Average" center rotations? "Above Average"? Heck, would the Lakers then be considered as having an "Above Average" center rotation? Shaq is a monster, but face it, Alton Ford is better then what they got as his backup.
 

notakiddfan1

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Shaq is a monster, but face it, Alton Ford is better then what they got as his backup.

And you should face it that the Suns are the only team that would play Alton Ford, who is just maybe 6 feet, 8 inches tall, as a back-up or any other center.

I love, though, how everybody talks about players developing by getting minutes in NBA games. However, unfortunately this is not 3rd grade Bitty-league basketball, the is the National Basketball Association. In a schedule where every game counts, like that of the Phoenix Suns, you don't have time to put your scrub players in the game for long stretches of time if that player is going to act as a detriment to the talent of the unit on the floor. Jake Tsakalidis is a serviceable center, and his body is very big which helps in basketball, but you have to face reality and stop kidding yourself if you think the guy can have the stamina to not only play, but be effective (and that's the key) in 35+ minutes of work over an 82-game season (that's another key). Couple that with the fact that he brings down about 4 rebounds a game, with his 7'2 stature and all, and hasn't blocked a shot cleanly in who knows how long. As far as developing is concerned, however, improvements are made from June to October (or as it's looking more and more possible for the Suns, from April to October), not from October to June. If Jake Tsakalidis ever has a chance of becoming an above average center in the league, who is comparable to at least an Olowakandi or Yao Ming, he is going to have to put in work over the summer. Game play helps some, but Jake gets enough minutes now that he could very easily become accostomed to the NBA game, and as far as familiarity and understanding of the game is concerned, I'm sure he already has. Nevertheless, it is the dedicated players who develop and take their games to the next level out of desire to be better basketball players. Call me crazy, but I don't see Big Jake as much of a gym rat in his free time. If Jake wants to be more productive, or rather, if you guys want Jake to be more productive, he needs to become a better basketball during the offseason. Then, and only then, the minutes will obviously increase.

Now, as far as just playing small-ball is concerned, if you turned the game last night on in the middle of the fourth quarter and watched from there, I can definately see where you're coming from. Having Bo Outlaw at 6'8 as our center obviously would never really work, and the Utah Jazz getting layups every trip down the floor is only proof. However, if you had watched the game before that point in action, you would know that it wasn't the coaching staff's plan throw a front court of Amare Stoudemire and Bo Outlaw onto the floor when the Suns needed to get key stops. Two minutes from the opening tip-off, Jake Tsakalidis was already in foul trouble, and would be all game. No worries, though, because we have two other 7+ footers to man the paint in Jake's absence. Well, that doesn't work when 2 minutes later Scott Williams collected 2 fouls of his own and had to sit as well. That leaves Jake Vohskul, who, even if he could play 45 minutes a game, wasn't really doing anything to warrant that kind of playing time last night anyway. Even still, he got into relatively early foul trouble. From then on, whenever Jake Tsakalidis got into the game, he would just pick up quick fouls and have to sit again. Big Jake may not be much of a rythem guy, but if you were somebody who turned the game on in the middle of the fourth quarter, understand that bringing Big Jake into a game that he has not gotten much of a chance to get into would not only be unfair to Jake, but it'd be downright stupid. The guy is a stiff after 20 minutes of stretching and stationary bike-riding, I don't think he'd be able to contribute much against a tandem of the old-yet-mobile-and-crafty Karl Malone and a surprisingly effective Greg Ostertag. Scott Williams isn't much of a defensive presence anyway, but we wouldn't really want him out there jacking up 15-footers all fourth quarter in a game where we struggled to score as it was. Maybe we should've put in Casey Jacobson, who although certainly is not the sharp-shooter people describe him to be, might possibly be able to give us some scoring off the bench. Of course, he's 6'7, so that'd only be contributing to the small-ball problem we're all so adamant about abolishing in the first place.

Our problem isn't that we play small-ball, that's just another symptom of our real concerns. Our centers have trouble at times staying out of foul trouble, and when they aren't, they don't really contribute on a consistent enough basis to warrant them real minutes. Our 3 centers have all gotten many opportunities this year at showing what they can do on the floor, and many times they've done quite nicely. However, they have never shown that we can truly rely on them to help us night in and night out. Bo Outlaw, while he may not be extremely tall for the position he plays on this team, but he gives the team other things that are very valuable, or perhaps even invaluable at times. He does get out of position a lot of times when he hedges on screen-and-roles, but that is an entirely different issue that needs to be dealt with. The point is, the Phoenix Suns centers don't play a lot of minutes at times because they aren't great centers. It is not, as some may think, that the Suns centers aren't good because they don't play a lot of minutes. If they want to improve, they have to put in the hours, and hard work into those hours, over this summer to achieve such a goal. As far as fathering their development, this team just doesn't have time during the season.
 

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Originally posted by Chaplin
Funny how you use the words "Below Average"

How many teams have "Average" center rotations? "Above Average"? Heck, would the Lakers then be considered as having an "Above Average" center rotation? Shaq is a monster, but face it, Alton Ford is better then what they got as his backup.

It doesn't matter. If the Phoenix Suns center rotation altogether averaged Shaquille O'Neal's numbers they would probably be the best team in the NBA. Heck, I'd be happy if the centers and entire bench averaged his numbers.

I think we exhausted this "who has a better center rotation" argument a few days ago. Many of us believe the Suns do not have a very good center rotation. Some of us believe differently. I don't think we're going to change each other's minds.

Joe Mama
 

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I don't think we're going to change each other's minds.

That's what you think, bucko. :p
 

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Holy Freaking CRAP...

did it take you all day to type that notakiddfan?? :D
 

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Originally posted by Joe Mama


I think we exhausted this "who has a better center rotation" argument a few days ago. Many of us believe the Suns do not have a very good center rotation. Some of us believe differently. I don't think we're going to change each other's minds.

Joe Mama

I assume you're referring to me, and all I have to say is that I don't think we have a "very good" center rotation. At best, it's mediocre. But then again, what are we comparing it to? Other center rotations. Compared to other center rotations in the league, I don't think ours is as bad as you and others have said.

But, at the same time, I don't think it's that good either.
 

notakiddfan1

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Holy Freaking CRAP... did that take you all day notakiddfan1

Well, it was damn close to that! So i'd like it if somebody made some comments about what i said just to make it feel almost worth it.
 
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Wally

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Originally posted by notakiddfan1
Well, it was damn close to that! So i'd like it if somebody made some comments about what i said just to make it feel almost worth it.

:D Ok, but you'll never get that many words out of me.:D :D

I think the only chance we have to get a big guy to play C is for Marbury to grow 12 inches and pretend he's still a 6'2" guard. AND I'm talking HEIGHT here.
 

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Originally posted by notakiddfan1
Well, it was damn close to that! So i'd like it if somebody made some comments about what i said just to make it feel almost worth it.

If something is longer than 2 paragraphs, I don't read it. Sorry.
 

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If something is longer than 2 paragraphs, I don't read it. Sorry.

That counts as a comment, doesn't it? I'm sure t.r.h. feels much better now.
 

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Originally posted by elindholm
If something is longer than 2 paragraphs, I don't read it. Sorry.

That counts as a comment, doesn't it? I'm sure t.r.h. feels much better now.

.... :D
 

elindholm

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Actually, here's the single-paragraph version for SirStefan, so he can read it. Wouldn't want to tax that attention span.

----

And you should face it that the Suns are the only team that would play Alton Ford, who is just maybe 6 feet, 8 inches tall, as a back-up or any other center. I love, though, how everybody talks about players developing by getting minutes in NBA games. However, unfortunately this is not 3rd grade Bitty-league basketball, the is the National Basketball Association. In a schedule where every game counts, like that of the Phoenix Suns, you don't have time to put your scrub players in the game for long stretches of time if that player is going to act as a detriment to the talent of the unit on the floor. Jake Tsakalidis is a serviceable center, and his body is very big which helps in basketball, but you have to face reality and stop kidding yourself if you think the guy can have the stamina to not only play, but be effective (and that's the key) in 35+ minutes of work over an 82-game season (that's another key). Couple that with the fact that he brings down about 4 rebounds a game, with his 7'2 stature and all, and hasn't blocked a shot cleanly in who knows how long. As far as developing is concerned, however, improvements are made from June to October (or as it's looking more and more possible for the Suns, from April to October), not from October to June. If Jake Tsakalidis ever has a chance of becoming an above average center in the league, who is comparable to at least an Olowakandi or Yao Ming, he is going to have to put in work over the summer. Game play helps some, but Jake gets enough minutes now that he could very easily become accostomed to the NBA game, and as far as familiarity and understanding of the game is concerned, I'm sure he already has. Nevertheless, it is the dedicated players who develop and take their games to the next level out of desire to be better basketball players. Call me crazy, but I don't see Big Jake as much of a gym rat in his free time. If Jake wants to be more productive, or rather, if you guys want Jake to be more productive, he needs to become a better basketball during the offseason. Then, and only then, the minutes will obviously increase. Now, as far as just playing small-ball is concerned, if you turned the game last night on in the middle of the fourth quarter and watched from there, I can definately see where you're coming from. Having Bo Outlaw at 6'8 as our center obviously would never really work, and the Utah Jazz getting layups every trip down the floor is only proof. However, if you had watched the game before that point in action, you would know that it wasn't the coaching staff's plan throw a front court of Amare Stoudemire and Bo Outlaw onto the floor when the Suns needed to get key stops. Two minutes from the opening tip-off, Jake Tsakalidis was already in foul trouble, and would be all game. No worries, though, because we have two other 7+ footers to man the paint in Jake's absence. Well, that doesn't work when 2 minutes later Scott Williams collected 2 fouls of his own and had to sit as well. That leaves Jake Vohskul, who, even if he could play 45 minutes a game, wasn't really doing anything to warrant that kind of playing time last night anyway. Even still, he got into relatively early foul trouble. From then on, whenever Jake Tsakalidis got into the game, he would just pick up quick fouls and have to sit again. Big Jake may not be much of a rythem guy, but if you were somebody who turned the game on in the middle of the fourth quarter, understand that bringing Big Jake into a game that he has not gotten much of a chance to get into would not only be unfair to Jake, but it'd be downright stupid. The guy is a stiff after 20 minutes of stretching and stationary bike-riding, I don't think he'd be able to contribute much against a tandem of the old-yet-mobile-and-crafty Karl Malone and a surprisingly effective Greg Ostertag. Scott Williams isn't much of a defensive presence anyway, but we wouldn't really want him out there jacking up 15-footers all fourth quarter in a game where we struggled to score as it was. Maybe we should've put in Casey Jacobson, who although certainly is not the sharp-shooter people describe him to be, might possibly be able to give us some scoring off the bench. Of course, he's 6'7, so that'd only be contributing to the small-ball problem we're all so adamant about abolishing in the first place. Our problem isn't that we play small-ball, that's just another symptom of our real concerns. Our centers have trouble at times staying out of foul trouble, and when they aren't, they don't really contribute on a consistent enough basis to warrant them real minutes. Our 3 centers have all gotten many opportunities this year at showing what they can do on the floor, and many times they've done quite nicely. However, they have never shown that we can truly rely on them to help us night in and night out. Bo Outlaw, while he may not be extremely tall for the position he plays on this team, but he gives the team other things that are very valuable, or perhaps even invaluable at times. He does get out of position a lot of times when he hedges on screen-and-roles, but that is an entirely different issue that needs to be dealt with. The point is, the Phoenix Suns centers don't play a lot of minutes at times because they aren't great centers. It is not, as some may think, that the Suns centers aren't good because they don't play a lot of minutes. If they want to improve, they have to put in the hours, and hard work into those hours, over this summer to achieve such a goal. As far as fathering their development, this team just doesn't have time during the season.
 

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Well, I think you guys. At first, looking back that post didn't quite seem worth it. I mean, I'm 35 now, I was 17 years of age when I started the reply. However, everybody's comments on the "small-ball" situation with the Suns organization, especially as a reply to my post, made that half of my life worth it. And I think you guys, from the bottom of my heart, I do.
 

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It's been awhile . . .

It's been awhile since I've vented about this, but you guys are hitting a nerve!

Whether it was Alvan Adams playing Center at 212 lbs. or Bo Outlaw at 210, it is what it is! Suns Centers and fans know that a legitimate Center on our team will get some playing time early but, with the game on the line, won't be on the court.

So their development hits a ceiling. The minute there is an excuse for small ball, they are gone!

I'll repeat what I've said before. In the 35 year history of the Suns, there have been just two Assistant Coaches who played Power Forward, none who played Center -- Paul Silas and now Mark Iavarroni. Two in 35 years. That makes a statement about priorities.
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In the late '70's, it was generally acknowledged that whichever team won the West -- the Sonics or the Suns -- would be favored over the Eastern (and reigning World) Champion Bullets.

Adams went down with an injury. Instead of putting our legitimate backup Center, Bayard Forrest -- 6'10" 240 -- against Seattle's Jack Sikma (6'11"), who took over? 6'7" Small Forward Joel Kramer. We lost and the Sonics went on to win the NBA Championship as predicted.

A few years later, prototype Power Forward Mo Lucas was injured for the Suns and was replaced by . . . Point Guard Dennis Johnson. We not only lost the matchup at Power Forward, but sacrificed the best defensive Guard in the League.

It is what it is, guys! And now Amare's first year development has been hurt by his having to play against, and be guarded by, true Centers, because he's our biggest guy on the court.

How about the time that Lakers Point Guard Magic Johnson guarded our Center throughout the Playoff Series and each of the rest of our players was guarded -- make that muscled -- by a bigger guy . . . at each one of the other positions.
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And each of our last four Head Coaches has been a former Guard, with no NBA Head Coaching experience.

As long as Jerry Colangelo calls the shots, it will be as it has been for the last 35 years. We desperately need a Head Coach who values the Power positions, will bring in fresh ideas, and will be allowed to institute them.

Bo Outlaw hustles and has muscles on his muscles . . . but he is still a 6'7" -210 pounder at the Center position. It is what it is!
 

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Instead of putting our legitimate backup Center, Bayard Forrest

Bayard Forrest was terrible.
 

BC867

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Originally posted by elindholm
Instead of putting our legitimate backup Center, Bayard Forrest

Bayard Forrest was terrible.
But he was a 240 lb. body, elindholm! And although Kramer played his heart out, he was no match for Sikma at 6'7"- 215.

It's an interesting debate. Is a mediocre big man a better choice at the Power positions than a 210-215 pound little guy with more skills?

Early in the season, it might be a toss-up (I don't really believe that), but as the NBA season winds down -- and certainly into the Post Season -- 'not a chance!
 

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"I first ran into him in pickup games last August," ASU forward Tommy Smith said. "There are no charging fouls in those games, so Ike was just running over people and doing some Shaquille O'Neal stuff. That's when I knew he was going to be large, very large."

I thought that was a funny quote from Tommy Smith. I guess charging and running people over is referred to during pickup games as "doing some Shaquille O'Neal stuff".

Joe Mama
 

elindholm

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But he was a 240 lb. body, elindholm! And although Kramer played his heart out, he was no match for Sikma at 6'7"- 215.

With several dozen more cheeseburgers and ice cream sundaes, I could probably get to 240. But I wouldn't be a match for Sikma, either.

Bad players are just bad, even if they are large.
 

BC867

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Originally posted by elindholm
But he was a 240 lb. body, elindholm! And although Kramer played his heart out, he was no match for Sikma at 6'7"- 215.

With several dozen more cheeseburgers and ice cream sundaes, I could probably get to 240. But I wouldn't be a match for Sikma, either.

Bad players are just bad, even if they are large.
I have to ask . . . would the cheeseburgers and ice cream sundaes stretch you to 6'10"?

We have seen that Big Jake's presence in the middle does take some pressure off the rest of the team on defense. Bo at 6'7" - 210 is just not the same.

It's ironic that in today's Republic, Jake complained that he can't get back into game shape playing ZERO minutes, as in our last game!

Inconsistent lineups work for the D'backs in baseball. That's an individual sport within a team concept.

I don't believe they do in the NBA, where chemistry on the court -- both offense and defense -- is so important.

We blew a game we should have won with our lead Center a non-entity. :-(
 

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We have seen that Big Jake's presence in the middle does take some pressure off the rest of the team on defense. Bo at 6'7" - 210 is just not the same.

I agree that the Suns need a center, but this is really oversimplifying. Tsakalidis takes some pressure off the rest of the team in certain aspects of what they need to do defensively. Specifically, he can hang around the rim and try to bother shots. He can also provide some low-post defense against large, not especially mobile centers who can't shoot more than 10 feet away, like O'Neal.

But he can't pressure the ball on the perimeter, he can't effectively double team anyone, he's extremely poor at dealing with high screens when his man takes him away from the basket, and he's an absolute liability in transition. Overall, I'm not sure whether he is any better defensively than Outlaw. Since the Mavericks were operating mainly from the perimeter last night (not exclusively, but mainly), Outlaw was probably a better choice.

We blew a game we should have won with our lead Center a non-entity.

What makes it "a game we should have won"? The fact that the Suns led at halftime? Big deal. The Mavericks are much, much better than the Suns are, and two of their starters caught fire in the second half. That makes them very tough to beat, regardless of what their halftime deficit might have been.

I'm all for developing centers, and I think we'd agree that the team won't go anywhere with Bo Outlaw in the pivot. But you can't just plug an unskilled behemoth in, on the excuse that he's "big," and expect things to get any better.

I'll say it again: bad players are just bad, even if they are large.

Inconsistent lineups work for the D'backs in baseball.

Notice that you never said this until it did work. Hindsight, as they say, is 20-20.

It's easy to see that the Suns aren't very good right now, and that part of their problem is that they don't have a competent center. It's less easy to see what the solution is.
 
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