Scoop Jackson on the Suns

[Nash]

I just read this article on Page 2 by Scoop Jackson. It has a lot of horsesh*t mixed in with some reasonable statements/stats. read it to feel it.

PS: there was this insider article on the league 'investigating' Bowen's dirty play. I thought Stu already looked looked at it and decided not take any action. That news is 2 or 3 days old. Was surprised to see this ESPN thing today.
anyone with insider care to fill us in? zanks!
here's the link

 

[Errntknght]

A very long winded way of saying he doesn't know whats wrong, but it does sound like he's watched them play some. I think the main problem is that the pundits picked the Suns to do well this year, and, as the team has done in the last several years, they are determined to show the writers they don't know what they're talking about. Now that everyone is saying the Suns were overrated they'll turn things around and prove them wrong yet again. I hope!

IMO, it started with D'Antoni and Amare getting into an adversarial relationship and it infected the whole team.

How did that work? It kept many of the key players from knowing what their role on the team was. Nash and Marion were somewhat the exception though Shawn couldn't be sure how much of a 'starring' role he'd have or be perceived as having by the media. Bell isn't much affected by Amare but he's having to look over his shoulder at Leandro - the coach's fair haired boy.

Mike has never been very good at handling the subs on the team (and a disaster with backup PGs). With the exception of Barbosa, every sub that's played for him has deteriorated - sooner or later. This year, every player except Nash and Marion is a sub or on the bubble - and they're playing like it.

 

[Nash]

IMO, it started with D'Antoni and Amare getting into an adversarial relationship and it infected the whole team.

adversarial relationship. I'm curious, is this from the lousy way in which coach has handled Amare's comeback (he'll start , he won't, i'll run him into the ground, i'll ease him back in) or is there more concrete evidence in this direction that I missed out.

Bell isn't much affected by Amare but he's having to look over his shoulder at Leandro - the coach's fair haired boy.

I hope this idiot coach doesn't do something like bringing Bell off the bench. Considering Antoni's addiction to pure offense, you never know. This team will get butchered if they continue to disrespect defense.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I hope this idiot coach doesn't do something like bringing Bell off the bench.

Surely, that statement is sarcasm---surely it is.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Surely, that statement is sarcasm---surely it is.

Why? Eventhough Barbosa is producing more, I also think it would be idiotic to start Barbosa over Bell. Bell will get on track, and Barbosa's spark off of the bench is exactly what the Suns need, especially when Nash is getting a rest.

Why does that have to be sarcastic?

 

[nowagimp]

Why? Eventhough Barbosa is producing more, I also think it would be idiotic to start Barbosa over Bell. Bell will get on track, and Barbosa's spark off of the bench is exactly what the Suns need, especially when Nash is getting a rest.

Why does that have to be sarcastic?

1) It might be that Raja, also returning from a major injury, doesnt have full strength back in his leg. His outside shooting has been inconsistent(nearly nonexistent) until the last two games and his defense has been, for Raja, a little off. He just isnt moving like a fully healthy Raja. He has some bursts, but his footwork on D doesnt have the same relentless quickness.

2) Maybe its because Leo has the biggest +/- of any suns player(7ppg) and D'Antoni is desperate for wins to avert a longer losing slump. Barbosa is quickly becoming a dominant force on offense, and is now even dishing it a bit.

3) Maybe its because Leo is one of the only suns rotation players besides Nash and KT who are really in shape. Remember Marion is also coming off a minor injury.

4) Maybe its because Bell has had more trouble getting used to the new ball. Other than Barbosa and Nash, other suns just cant seem to hit an open 3 consistently. This means that the spacing with Leo on the floor will be better than that with Raja. Leo seemed to get some great spacing off the dribble for dishes to Amare against the Grizzlies, and you can bet every opponent knows Leo is shooting 45% from 3 while jacking a bunch every game.

Maybe its a combination of all. Raja will be back, but I think he may need a little more time to strengthen his leg(and now heal his rib). An NBA basketball coach deals with many little(and not so little) problems that we fans dont even know about.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Why? Eventhough Barbosa is producing more, I also think it would be idiotic to start Barbosa over Bell. Bell will get on track, and Barbosa's spark off of the bench is exactly what the Suns need, especially when Nash is getting a rest.

Why does that have to be sarcastic?

Maybe its because this coach is one of the true innovators in the league.

Maybe its because this coach has a style that is being emulated by half the teams in the league.

Maybe its because this coach is one of the best in Suns history.

It is idiotic to call this coach idiotic.

 

[Nash]

Maybe its because this coach is one of the true innovators in the league.
Maybe its because this coach has a style that is being emulated by half the teams in the league.
Maybe its because this coach is one of the best in Suns history.
It is idiotic to call this coach idiotic.

easy now..
Its great that the coach gives the team the latitude to freelance on the court but that can't be the sole MO if the team wants to win it all. He wouldn't be as dependant on outstanding PG play if he used more set plays. There are so many teams out there that are doing well, without a guy like Nash to break down the offense all the time.
He's a decent coach, but won't be great until he shows better personnel managment.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Maybe its because this coach is one of the true innovators in the league.

Maybe its because this coach has a style that is being emulated by half the teams in the league.

Maybe its because this coach is one of the best in Suns history.

It is idiotic to call this coach idiotic.

I said starting Barbosa was idiotic, not that Coach D' was idiotic. Surely you understand that.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I said starting Barbosa was idiotic, not that Coach D' was idiotic. Surely you understand that.

This is the quote I am referring to.

I hope this idiot coach doesn't do something like bringing Bell off the bench. Considering Antoni's addiction to pure offense, you never know. This team will get butchered if they continue to disrespect defense.

All I can respond to is what is written, if you meant something different than "idiot coach" I'll accept that is what you meant, and move on.

Maybe what was meant was, "I hope this coach doesn't do something idiotic, and bring Bell off the bench." ???????

 

[nowagimp]

easy now..
Its great that the coach gives the team the latitude to freelance on the court but that can't be the sole MO if the team wants to win it all. He wouldn't be as dependant on outstanding PG play if he used more set plays. There are so many teams out there that are doing well, without a guy like Nash to break down the offense all the time.
He's a decent coach, but won't be great until he shows better personnel managment.

One of the purposes of this board is to vent, so no problem with venting, Nash. However the plain truth is that D'Antoni has a difficult job and is one of the best coaches around. Posters may feel that D'Antoni has mismanaged personnel, but that doesnt make it the truth. Some posters want D'Antoni to copy the strategies of other coaches, even though the personnel is very different. Other posters want different personnel, like big slow guys, to run a different system. There is plenty of room for all opinions, but the reality is that D"Antoni has advanced his undermanned team to 2 WCF's, while posters can only boast of a fantasy league success.

 

[elindholm]

Posters may feel that D'Antoni has mismanaged personnel, but that doesnt make it the truth.

Does it make the opposite the truth?

the reality is that D"Antoni has advanced his undermanned team to 2 WCF's

And in doing so, won four playoff series:

2005 against the Grizzlies, who have never won a single playoff game.
2005 against the Mavericks, when Nash had one of the greatest runs in league history.
2006 against the Lakers, who barely made the playoffs and had the Suns on the ropes before imploding.
2006 against the Clippers, who would have advanced if not for Bell's miraculous buzzer-beating three-pointer.

Then they went on to get vaporized in both WCFs.

It's a nice playoff record, but I don't see how it certifies Antoni as a top coach. It's true that many other teams are trying to play run-and-gun, but none of the other contenders are, so maybe they know something that the rest of the league doesn't.

 

[nowagimp]

Posters may feel that D'Antoni has mismanaged personnel, but that doesnt make it the truth.

Does it make the opposite the truth?

the reality is that D"Antoni has advanced his undermanned team to 2 WCF's

And in doing so, won four playoff series:

2005 against the Grizzlies, who have never won a single playoff game.
2005 against the Mavericks, when Nash had one of the greatest runs in league history.
2006 against the Lakers, who barely made the playoffs and had the Suns on the ropes before imploding.
2006 against the Clippers, who would have advanced if not for Bell's miraculous buzzer-beating three-pointer.

Then they went on to get vaporized in both WCFs.

It's a nice playoff record, but I don't see how it certifies Antoni as a top coach. It's true that many other teams are trying to play run-and-gun, but none of the other contenders are, so maybe they know something that the rest of the league doesn't.

The suns were probably one injury to Raja from the finals last year. And that was after losing KT, and Amare. NO ONE expected them to be there, not fans, not experts, nobody. You can bet the Heat were glad to face the Mavs in the finals instead of the suns. Last years team had the best chemistry in the NBA, you think that was an accident? Does the coach get any credit for chemistry? From my playing days I'd say that the coach should get a whole lot of credit for a team playing like that. The suns aren't a bunch of one-on-one guys, its a team concept that must be coached. Comparing other run and gun teams to the suns is really not relevant since none of those teams have had much success yet, they are mostly a few years behind the suns and many have severe personnel deficiencies. Maybe the Bulls in a few years will mirror the suns pretty well.

 

[elindholm]

The suns were probably one injury to Raja from the finals last year.

I doubt it. Bell would have helped, but Dallas was the better team anyway.

NO ONE expected them to be there, not fans, not experts, nobody.

I remember several "experts" picking the Suns to beat the Lakers, and then picking the Suns to beat the Clippers. (For that matter, some picked Phoenix to beat Dallas.) Of course some picked the L.A. teams as well, but it isn't true that "no one" expected the Suns to win those series.

When chemistry brings the team to the Finals, I'll give it due credit. Right now it's just something that fans point to in order to feel better about a lifetime of falling short.

 

[nowagimp]

The suns were probably one injury to Raja from the finals last year.

I doubt it. Bell would have helped, but Dallas was the better team anyway.

NO ONE expected them to be there, not fans, not experts, nobody.

I remember several "experts" picking the Suns to beat the Lakers, and then picking the Suns to beat the Clippers. (For that matter, some picked Phoenix to beat Dallas.) Of course some picked the L.A. teams as well, but it isn't true that "no one" expected the Suns to win those series.

When chemistry brings the team to the Finals, I'll give it due credit. Right now it's just something that fans point to in order to feel better about a lifetime of falling short.

I'll reiterate, when Amare went down, no one expected the suns to go to the WCF. At least half the experts said no playoffs, even fewer said they would win the pacific division. The point is, looking at the roster, no one expected it. Once everyone saw the suns chemistry and the team play the other contenders, the prediction is not so difficult. What makes DAntoni a good coach is that he gets alot out of his talent. The job avery johnson did with a very talented mavericks team was not even close to what DAntoni did with the suns last year with 2/5 projected starters out with injury. As far as Raja being out, he was their best 3pt shooter and his injury killed the spacing, let alone the depth of the suns. In the end it was all about the lack of offensive spacing and defensive depth with suns frontcourt players letting Dirk shoot after being saddled with fouls. If one understands the importance of spacing in the DAntoni system, its not much of a reach to say that, with the loss of the suns most accurate 3pt shooter, everything changed on offense in the Mavs series and the stats bear that out.

 

[elindholm]

I'll reiterate, when Amare went down, no one expected the suns to go to the WCF. At least half the experts said no playoffs, even fewer said they would win the pacific division. The point is, looking at the roster, no one expected it.

You've changed the subject. We were previously talking about last year's run to the WCF without Kurt Thomas. By the time Thomas went down, the Suns were already in the playoffs (basically) and had a comfortable lead in their division.

If you want to say that fun-and-gun is good for "chemistry" and, if done well, can produce 50+ regular-season wins, I won't argue with you there. But the Suns have had a long line of coaches who have provided over smiling 50-and-fade squads, of whom Antoni is merely the most recent. He doesn't stand out among the crowd in that regard.

If one understands the importance of spacing in the DAntoni system, its not much of a reach to say that, with the loss of the suns most accurate 3pt shooter, everything changed on offense in the Mavs series and the stats bear that out.

There's no need to be patronizing. The Suns' offense stagnates in the half court, no matter how many three-point shooters are on the floor, and the problem gets worse after a good defensive team has figured out how to implement some additional specific schemes. I love what Bell brings to the team, but to assert that the Suns would have made the finals with him is pure fantasy. It might have happened, but it probably wouldn't have.

 

[Chaplin]

I'll reiterate, when Amare went down, no one expected the suns to go to the WCF. At least half the experts said no playoffs, even fewer said they would win the pacific division. The point is, looking at the roster, no one expected it.

You've changed the subject. We were previously talking about last year's run to the WCF without Kurt Thomas. By the time Thomas went down, the Suns were already in the playoffs (basically) and had a comfortable lead in their division.

If you want to say that fun-and-gun is good for "chemistry" and, if done well, can produce 50+ regular-season wins, I won't argue with you there. But the Suns have had a long line of coaches who have provided over smiling 50-and-fade squads, of whom Antoni is merely the most recent. He doesn't stand out among the crowd in that regard.

If one understands the importance of spacing in the DAntoni system, its not much of a reach to say that, with the loss of the suns most accurate 3pt shooter, everything changed on offense in the Mavs series and the stats bear that out.

There's no need to be patronizing. The Suns' offense stagnates in the half court, no matter how many three-point shooters are on the floor, and the problem gets worse after a good defensive team has figured out how to implement some additional specific schemes. I love what Bell brings to the team, but to assert that the Suns would have made the finals with him is pure fantasy. It might have happened, but it probably wouldn't have.

I can't believe you've let yourself become enamored with the whole immature "Antoni" thing. It's funny the first time you hear it, and maybe even the second time, but it's hard to take someone seriously when they use it all the time.

 

[Nash]

I can't believe you've let yourself become enamored with the whole immature "Antoni" thing. It's funny the first time you hear it, and maybe even the second time, but it's hard to take someone seriously when they use it all the time.

juding by your general demeanor here's a movie you will find extremely obnoxious and boring: Borat.
(its chockful of stereotypes and old jokes)

geez, why do you take yourself so seriously!

 

[nowagimp]

I'll reiterate, when Amare went down, no one expected the suns to go to the WCF. At least half the experts said no playoffs, even fewer said they would win the pacific division. The point is, looking at the roster, no one expected it.

You've changed the subject. We were previously talking about last year's run to the WCF without Kurt Thomas.

Thats funny, I thought we were talking about DAntonis coaching, so I guess that since he led the team to the pacific div title and then through to the WCF doesnt apply here. When Amare went down the echoes aross the league, and onthis board were more like happy/lucky to make the playoffs. Of all those other 50 win suns coaches I doubt any have done that with 2 of 5 projected starter(yes at the beginning of the season) go down with injury. I also doubt any of those other coaches had a team with the highest scoring and best shooting percentage in the NBA. Sorry, but I dont think your critical view of DAntoni's coaching skills holds much weight, given the successes.

The view of a coaches successes through the narrow window of the WCF final run with an undermanned team is probably not the best sample of his skill set. But again its all in what you want to believe, I guess.

 

[F-Dog]

The Suns' offense stagnates in the half court, no matter how many three-point shooters are on the floor, and the problem gets worse after a good defensive team has figured out how to implement some additional specific schemes.

I would have said exactly the opposite. IMO in the playoffs, the Suns generally figure out the other team's schemes after a game or two, and after that they generally get the shots they want.



In the Dallas series, I do think the loss of Raja was a major factor, and the fact that Boris and Barbosa went back into their respective shells was another major factor.

Coaching was far down the list, if it was a negative factor at all. Just watching "Antoni", I would take him over any Suns coach in my memory, and considering the Suns are 2-2 the last two years in playoff series against the teams that were better than they were...I guess you can spin things however you want, though.

 

[elindholm]

Okay, I'll be honest: I had to re-read the thread just to remember exactly what we're arguing about.

I think D'Antoni is a fine coach. However, the bottom line is that he has not been any more successful than any other coach when it comes to what matters most, and that is deep playoff success.

To me, a great coach is one who could thrive under a variety of circumstances, with a variety of teams. D'Antoni hasn't shown that he is in that category. He played fun-and-gun in Europe and now is playing fun-and-gun in Phoenix. We've all seen how much the Suns struggle when Nash in off the floor.

Is D'Antoni good for chemistry? Sure. The players like him, he gets them to work hard and believe in themselves, and he encourages a style that rewards energy and effort. But a topless cheerleading squad would be good for chemistry too. Until that talent translates into finals appearances, I'm not going to put a lot of stock in it.

And I don't care how long we argue it: A lineup with Nash, Barbosa, and Banks all on the floor at the same time is flat-out ********.

 

[F-Dog]

And I don't care how long we argue it: A lineup with Nash, Barbosa, and Banks all on the floor at the same time is flat-out ********.

Worse than a lineup with Jake Voskuhl?


Seriously, though, Nash/Banks/Barbosa makes sense against San Antonio.

 

[Nash]

But a topless cheerleading squad would be good for chemistry too.

I'm not sure about that. Our team has had enough problems coping with the new ball. dealing with 30 more of those may not be the best idea.

 

[nowagimp]

Worse than a lineup with Jake Voskuhl?


Seriously, though, Nash/Banks/Barbosa makes sense against San Antonio.

Good to see someone understand the advantages of matchups with that speed lineup. That same lineup might also work against the Mavs at times, depending on who the mavs 1-3 players are at the time.

 

[nowagimp]

Okay, I'll be honest: I had to re-read the thread just to remember exactly what we're arguing about.

He played fun-and-gun in Europe and now is playing fun-and-gun in Phoenix.

Sounds alot like Greg Anthony, run and gun cant win(see showtime lakers, 3 championships).