Reality Check - Roster Construction

ASUCHRIS

ONE HEART BEAT!!!
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Posts
15,497
Reaction score
12,331
Right, but he does have a point: the Cardinals don't actually have much space this year and you have to sign players to replace them....so it's actually kind of pointless which is why it's not gonna happen.
It's not pointless though!!! We've been told here ad nauseum that we're rebuilding and desperately need a reset. Again - the moves so far don't indicate any sort of plan at all.
One thing that some people are missing in this equation is that the Cardinals do have to field a team this year.
Even if they're not trying, they do! At this point, whether it's Ertz or Conner getting those reps or a rookie/FA, what's the difference?
Conner is a flawed contract, sure, but he's not a terrible player. Ertz still has some value as well. Just let it play out naturally and they will both be gone likely in 2024.
Again - if you do that, you're missing out on an opportunity to clear cap space now vs. later. If we're going to be terrible regardless, don't you take your medicine now as opposed to these half measures that won't help and will cause us to still be terrible?
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
37,379
Reaction score
27,534
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Right, but he does have a point: the Cardinals don't actually have much space this year and you have to sign players to replace them....so it's actually kind of pointless which is why it's not gonna happen.

One thing that some people are missing in this equation is that the Cardinals do have to field a team this year. Conner is a flawed contract, sure, but he's not a terrible player. Ertz still has some value as well. Just let it play out naturally and they will both be gone likely in 2024.
This is just nonsense. They had like the fifth-most space in the NFL coming into the season, and they've only chipped away at the barest minimum of the money they have. They're clearly not using any of that cap money to sign legitimate replacements for Murphy and/or Allen.

What Brit's right about and ASUCHRIS seems to be hardheaded over is that there's no functional difference between taking the cap hit on cutting them now or cutting them next year because whatever cap space they create could be rolled over into next season.

Conner's $7.75 million 2023 salary is guaranteed; it's not going to carry over. Ertz's $8.5 million salary is guaranteed. You're not going to get equivalent players at those positions for whatever limited amount of money you're going to save by getting rid of them.

I don't think they have any trade value, either. That's just wishcasting. I'm guessing both will be gone in 2024.
 

phillycard

ASFN Addict
Joined
Aug 22, 2003
Posts
7,004
Reaction score
3,580
Location
The 215
You don't get good by paying oft injured, slightly above average guys big money because we drafted them. I can see why some people would be pissed about it. It's a close call thing, but you must see the other side of the argument too right?

As I said elsewhere. Zach Allen is just Dawuane Smoot but at 3x the price Smoot got a year ago. I don't recall anyone here saying Smoot was a must get target.

This year is about building depth, trying to find gold in discarded scrap, hitting on draft picks and going into 2024 with a boat load of cap space and good draft capital to contend.
The problem is that TRYING and HITTING sound very much like Mega Millions and Power Ball terms to me. There has to come a point where players who have justified their drafting and played well are retained. If you keep dumping and chasing (to use a hockey analogy) you're only resetting, not building. I'm tired of that. The eagles because of Howie Roseman's roster building acumen perpetually seem to have to make decisions on players who can PLAY. Why? Because they draft well, and sign the type of free agents who can help them contend. Tell me you wouldn't have killed to have made the decision to keep or let loose Brandon Graham, Jason Kelce, Fletcher Cox, Miles Sanders, Darius Slay, James Bradbury, CGGJ, TJ Edwards, Javon Hargrave, Isaac Semuolo, Marcus Epps etc., etc, etc. When will we get good enough to have this problem is what I want to know! Not saying your approach is wrong. I want cap space and draft capital too, but there has to be some balance, you can't just keep looking to yonder for the next best thing when the blocks to build something solid are right in front of your face.
 
Last edited:

ASUCHRIS

ONE HEART BEAT!!!
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Posts
15,497
Reaction score
12,331
Hey Ronin... could you drop me a DM or something and explain why you feel that post requires MOD intervention. I would appreciate that because I do not understand
are you a wife?
you are wrong but I just dont want to take the time to prove it...
could swear I have heard that before!

He's asking you nicely not to be sexist. This ain't that hard.
 

oaken1

Stone Cold
Supporting Member
Banned from P+R
Joined
Mar 13, 2004
Posts
16,774
Reaction score
13,448
Location
Modesto, California
are you a wife?
you are wrong but I just dont want to take the time to prove it...
could swear I have heard that before!

He's asking you nicely not to be sexist. This ain't that hard.
yeah... I just looked it up. apparently it is mandatory to be a woman in order to be a wife. I was unsure. These days one tries not to make any assumptions related to gender titles... the weak minded tend to freak out when you do.
 

ASUCHRIS

ONE HEART BEAT!!!
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Posts
15,497
Reaction score
12,331
yeah... I just looked it up. apparently it is mandatory to be a woman in order to be a wife. I was unsure. These days one tries not to make any assumptions related to gender titles... the weak minded tend to freak out when you do.
Oaken - this ain't that hard. You were trying to say something negative about him by insinuating "wrong and don't want to take the time to prove it" is something a wife will do. That's gender assumption crap, and people don't tolerate that nonsense like they used to.

As a general rule, don't put negative connotation on gender - it's simple!
 

oaken1

Stone Cold
Supporting Member
Banned from P+R
Joined
Mar 13, 2004
Posts
16,774
Reaction score
13,448
Location
Modesto, California
Oaken - this ain't that hard. You were trying to say something negative about him by insinuating "wrong and don't want to take the time to prove it" is something a wife will do. That's gender assumption crap, and people don't tolerate that nonsense like they used to.

As a general rule, don't put negative connotation on gender - it's simple!
this is incorrect.

I, in my infinite state of foot in mouth, was simply busting a joke...... as a guy who has had several wives
 

Krangodnzr

Captain of Team Murray
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
35,658
Reaction score
32,629
Location
Orange County, CA
This is just nonsense. They had like the fifth-most space in the NFL coming into the season, and they've only chipped away at the barest minimum of the money they have. They're clearly not using any of that cap money to sign legitimate replacements for Murphy and/or Allen.
Left I mean. Sure they could move money around, but what's the point?
What Brit's right about and ASUCHRIS seems to be hardheaded over is that there's no functional difference between taking the cap hit on cutting them now or cutting them next year because whatever cap space they create could be rolled over into next season.

Conner's $7.75 million 2023 salary is guaranteed; it's not going to carry over. Ertz's $8.5 million salary is guaranteed. You're not going to get equivalent players at those positions for whatever limited amount of money you're going to save by getting rid of them.

I don't think they have any trade value, either. That's just wishcasting. I'm guessing both will be gone in 2024.
Agreed.
 

Krangodnzr

Captain of Team Murray
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
35,658
Reaction score
32,629
Location
Orange County, CA
It's not pointless though!!! We've been told here ad nauseum that we're rebuilding and desperately need a reset. Again - the moves so far don't indicate any sort of plan at all.
I'm waiting for more moves to figure it out, but it looks like they want to wait to see what they get in the draft before they make moves.
Even if they're not trying, they do! At this point, whether it's Ertz or Conner getting those reps or a rookie/FA, what's the difference?
The difference is that you now have to pay people to fill those spots which mean LESS money, not more.
Again - if you do that, you're missing out on an opportunity to clear cap space now vs. later. If we're going to be terrible regardless, don't you take your medicine now as opposed to these half measures that won't help and will cause us to still be terrible?
It literally only costs more money this year to cut them. There is no benefit.
 

ASUCHRIS

ONE HEART BEAT!!!
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Posts
15,497
Reaction score
12,331
this is incorrect.

I, in my infinite state of foot in mouth, was simply busting a joke...... as a guy who has had several wives
I get it...unfortunately context is often lost on the internet. Not everyone knows you or your motivation or your humor. I totally get wanting to shoot the stuff with your buds, but audience matters.

Also, it's just not that hard to get that kind of talk out of your system. You can rib him without sexist remarks!
 

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
21,310
Reaction score
37,770
Location
UK
The problem is that TRYING and HITTING sound very much like Mega Millions and Power Ball terms to me. There has to come a point where players who have justified their drafting and played well are retained. If you keep dumping and chasing (to use a hockey analogy) you're only resetting, not building. I'm tired of that. The eagles because of Howie Roseman's roster building acumen perpetually seem to have to make decisions on players who can PLAY. Why? Because they draft well, and sign the type of free agents who can help them contend. Tell me you wouldn't have killed to have made the decision to keep or let loose Brandon Graham, Jason Kelce, Fletcher Cox, Miles Sanders, Darius Slay, James Bradbury, CGGJ, TJ Edwards, Javon Hargrave, Isaac Semuolo, Marcus Epps etc., etc, etc. When will we get good enough to have this problem is what I want to know! Not saying your approach is wrong. I want cap space and draft capital too, but there has to be some balance, you can't just keep looking to yonder for the next best thing when the blocks to build something solid are right in front of your face.

I've mentioned this before in regards to "Steve Keim can't draft" stuff.

For me the draft is more like buying a lump of clay and whether that clay turns into something of value or not is more about the moulding that clay is given. And that a lot of our failures in the draft have been down to coaching as much as the picking.

Both Zaven Collins and Isaiah Simmons have all the tools to be very good linebackers. Simmons never had the instincts for me, but in year 3 he should have had them by now, if they hadn't messed him around so much. Poor coaching is why they are not better than they have been.

I feel the new staff are much more focused on this than previous staff and that should lead to a higher percentage of draft hits. The scouting, decision making and coaching all have to be aligned to get the draft right and Keim never had that.

That's not to absolve Keim of blame. He had a lots of picks where the clay was crap. Isabella, Butler, Cole, Chad Williams, Dorian Johnson, Diche, Brandon Williams etc but there have also been guys that have been worse than they should be due to bad coaching or usage.

I think what the Eagles (and Chiefs) have is a much better aligned system from start to finish so they hit on more draft picks. Some teams have it in certain areas and not others. I feel like the Pats for example are very good at finding DB's that fit what they want to do and that align with the coaching / scheme but garbage with WR's. I feel like we can have that too with this new staff. Although it may take longer than 1 year.
 

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
21,310
Reaction score
37,770
Location
UK
I don't think they have any trade value, either. That's just wishcasting. I'm guessing both will be gone in 2024.

I don't think Conner has any trade value due to his salary.

I think Ertz's does though. He's still a very reliable pass catching TE who can also block well enough. He's capable of 800 yards. That has value in the right scheme.

I think the trading team would be taking on about $8.5m per year which is like Logan Thomas money.

I think someone like the Cowboys would be very interested in Ertz as they lost Schultz in FA and seem to be all in this year.

Granted, you ain't going to get much. A 5th if they are desperate. Probably more likely a 6th. Cards might just take a pick swap to get the money off the books.
 

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
21,310
Reaction score
37,770
Location
UK
So they CAN move Ertz and Conner and save money next year by putting it on the cap this year. Thanks for clearing that up!

No. That's literally the opposite of what I wrote.

If you just save the cap space this year and roll that over you are better off next year than you would be by cutting them this year. And you keep 2 experienced players for a year.
 

Chopper0080

2021 - Prove It
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
26,966
Reaction score
35,846
Location
Colorado
I've mentioned this before in regards to "Steve Keim can't draft" stuff.

For me the draft is more like buying a lump of clay and whether that clay turns into something of value or not is more about the moulding that clay is given. And that a lot of our failures in the draft have been down to coaching as much as the picking.

Both Zaven Collins and Isaiah Simmons have all the tools to be very good linebackers. Simmons never had the instincts for me, but in year 3 he should have had them by now, if they hadn't messed him around so much. Poor coaching is why they are not better than they have been.

I feel the new staff are much more focused on this than previous staff and that should lead to a higher percentage of draft hits. The scouting, decision making and coaching all have to be aligned to get the draft right and Keim never had that.

That's not to absolve Keim of blame. He had a lots of picks where the clay was crap. Isabella, Butler, Cole, Chad Williams, Dorian Johnson, Diche, Brandon Williams etc but there have also been guys that have been worse than they should be due to bad coaching or usage.

I think what the Eagles (and Chiefs) have is a much better aligned system from start to finish so they hit on more draft picks. Some teams have it in certain areas and not others. I feel like the Pats for example are very good at finding DB's that fit what they want to do and that align with the coaching / scheme but garbage with WR's. I feel like we can have that too with this new staff. Although it may take longer than 1 year.
I don't agree with all of this, but I feel it is a reasoned take.
 

jf-08

Guy Smiley
Administrator
Super Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
26,107
Reaction score
20,348
Location
Eye in the Sky
***** Please stick to the topic and stop making things personal with other posters *****
 

phillycard

ASFN Addict
Joined
Aug 22, 2003
Posts
7,004
Reaction score
3,580
Location
The 215
I've mentioned this before in regards to "Steve Keim can't draft" stuff.

For me the draft is more like buying a lump of clay and whether that clay turns into something of value or not is more about the moulding that clay is given. And that a lot of our failures in the draft have been down to coaching as much as the picking.

Both Zaven Collins and Isaiah Simmons have all the tools to be very good linebackers. Simmons never had the instincts for me, but in year 3 he should have had them by now, if they hadn't messed him around so much. Poor coaching is why they are not better than they have been.

I feel the new staff are much more focused on this than previous staff and that should lead to a higher percentage of draft hits. The scouting, decision making and coaching all have to be aligned to get the draft right and Keim never had that.

That's not to absolve Keim of blame. He had a lots of picks where the clay was crap. Isabella, Butler, Cole, Chad Williams, Dorian Johnson, Diche, Brandon Williams etc but there have also been guys that have been worse than they should be due to bad coaching or usage.

I think what the Eagles (and Chiefs) have is a much better aligned system from start to finish so they hit on more draft picks. Some teams have it in certain areas and not others. I feel like the Pats for example are very good at finding DB's that fit what they want to do and that align with the coaching / scheme but garbage with WR's. I feel like we can have that too with this new staff. Although it may take longer than 1 year.
That's fair BC. I guess it will have to remain to be seen. Like you said, we can look no further than Haason Reddick as someone who wasn't maximized until too late in his time with us. I KNOW Simmons can play. Whether that be for us or someone else..... Well.....
 
Last edited:

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
61,171
Reaction score
53,549
Location
SoCal
This is PEAK ASFN garbage.

"You're not right, but I can't be bothered to show how or why that's the case. I can however be bother to write 20 posts arguing that you are not right when it would take me a 10th of the time to actually do some research. But that might show that you are right, so I'd rather just argue".

I'm right. I know I'm right. Until someone can be bothered to show otherwise why don't y'all be quiet?
Jesus you’re a freaking douchebag.
 
Top