Rapoport: Cardinals trading out of #3 very very likely

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
37,421
Reaction score
27,617
Location
Gilbert, AZ
I'm not paying Allen for $3M per sack. I can find someone who can give me 5 sacks for a fraction of the cost.
Cool. Who?

Because Zach Allen's 5.5 sacks were the second-highest on the 2022 Arizona Cardinals.

TBH I'm less worried about the sacks than I am about the 660 snaps that Allen ate up in 2023. I'm sur Michael Dogbe will do just as much as Allen did tho.
 

Jetstream Green

Kool Aid with a touch of vodka
Joined
Feb 5, 2003
Posts
29,461
Reaction score
16,603
Location
San Antonio, Texas
Available CB's


30+ Bandaids:

Jones (but he may be done)
Peters (probably too expensive and will want multiple years)
Jackson
Roby
Hill
Fuller (from Baltimore, so he's at least had good coaching)
Callahan (probably selling brake pads now)
Antonio Hamilton (maybe just bring back who we know)
Ryan (getting long in the tooth, but can he give you another year at age 32?)
Verrett (played on a great defense)
Verrett gets my attention but his career has become an enigma
 

Krangodnzr

Captain of Team Murray
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
35,671
Reaction score
32,679
Location
Orange County, CA
Cool. Who?

Because Zach Allen's 5.5 sacks were the second-highest on the 2022 Arizona Cardinals.

TBH I'm less worried about the sacks than I am about the 660 snaps that Allen ate up in 2023. I'm sur Michael Dogbe will do just as much as Allen did tho.
It's not even about sacks, it's about pressures, which Zach produced quite a few of.
 

MadCardDisease

Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
20,058
Reaction score
12,548
Location
Chandler, Az
Cool. Who?

Because Zach Allen's 5.5 sacks were the second-highest on the 2022 Arizona Cardinals.

TBH I'm less worried about the sacks than I am about the 660 snaps that Allen ate up in 2023. I'm sur Michael Dogbe will do just as much as Allen did tho.

5.5 sacks puts him in like the top 70 of the league for sacks last year.

I'm not sure just playing 660 snaps warrants a $45M contract. Cam Thomas had 3 sacks on 230 snaps. Let Cam play some more and throw in a rotational rookie and you probably exceed Allen's numbers for a fraction of the price.
 

PJ1

ASFN Icon
Joined
Sep 21, 2002
Posts
11,970
Reaction score
4,862
Location
Nashville TN.
Zach Allen had a QB hit every 33 snaps last season.

Cam Thomas had a QB hit every 38 snaps as a rookie.

I'm going with Thomas at $1M per year vs Allen at $15M per year.
He also had 8 pass blocks. Tied for tops in league among DL. Credited with 11 stuffs. He was more than just 5.5 sacks which is why he got paid. Also why MB specifically said they were looking at signing him. A players value is not what the Arizona Cardinals are willing to pay him.
 

Stout

Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Joined
Dec 30, 2002
Posts
38,512
Reaction score
21,545
Location
Pittsburgh, PA--Enemy territory!
I get the agnst for letting Murphy go. He was a solid player and losing him leaves a huge hole in the roster.

However paying Allen $15M per year didn't seem like a great investment. I mean you literally have his twin on the roster already in Cam Thomas for a tenth of the price.
Yet they will use those moves, or sad lack of moves, as the reason they need to make a bad trade back, ignoring the talent glaring them in the face, because they have more holes to fill. Paying Allen 15 mill a year to avoid that would have been well worth it.
 

Stout

Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Joined
Dec 30, 2002
Posts
38,512
Reaction score
21,545
Location
Pittsburgh, PA--Enemy territory!
5.5 sacks puts him in like the top 70 of the league for sacks last year.

I'm not sure just playing 660 snaps warrants a $45M contract. Cam Thomas had 3 sacks on 230 snaps. Let Cam play some more and throw in a rotational rookie and you probably exceed Allen's numbers for a fraction of the price.
Bad logic and fantasy wishes. If you're counting on Cam to partially fill Zach's void, then you need someone to fill Cam's void, and we don't know if Cam is good enough to fill in for Zach. We also don't know if Cam will be good enough to do more than what he's done so far. I hope so, and hope we give him the chance to, but why should you/the team/anyone have more faith in Cam than in Zach? And throwing in a rotational rookie doesn't sound like good sense to plug a starting spot on the DL. Add a rotational rookie to Cam, and you STILL need to add a starter, and you're STILL not a heck of a lot better than before.

As has been said, Allen had much more than the sacks. He also got a ton of pressures. He also had a ton of tipped balls. He was an excellent playmaker on our defense. And he will arguably get better. Downplaying the loss isn't going to make the loss any harder to absorb.
 

Stout

Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Joined
Dec 30, 2002
Posts
38,512
Reaction score
21,545
Location
Pittsburgh, PA--Enemy territory!
Zach Allen had a QB hit every 33 snaps last season.

Cam Thomas had a QB hit every 38 snaps as a rookie.

I'm going with Thomas at $1M per year vs Allen at $15M per year.
Right, because you can totally project a rookies numbers over roughly 2/3 more playing time :eyeroll: I cannot disagree more with these arguments. You can be good with it all you like, but it won't mean our DL isn't in much worse shape and we now have another big hole to fill there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PJ1

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
37,421
Reaction score
27,617
Location
Gilbert, AZ
5.5 sacks puts him in like the top 70 of the league for sacks last year.

I'm not sure just playing 660 snaps warrants a $45M contract. Cam Thomas had 3 sacks on 230 snaps. Let Cam play some more and throw in a rotational rookie and you probably exceed Allen's numbers for a fraction of the price.
Cool. Who replaces JJ Watts’s sacks?
 

WiscoBird

Veteran
Joined
Mar 15, 2022
Posts
287
Reaction score
550
Location
Wisconsin
People put way too much emphasis on stats and not enough on how someone plays in a system. You really think the people on this board and the Denver Broncos only wanted him because of his 5 sacks? What good does it do you to replace his 5 sacks with 7 if the replacement player does everything else wrong?

I could maybe buy the new administration doesn't see him as a fit, but this argument that he is easily replaceable is misguided. Jordan Phillips had 10 sacks in a season and he was trash. There is more to football than stats.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
61,211
Reaction score
53,622
Location
SoCal
At this point, I will be pretty surprised if we draft Will Anderson. I believe Monti/Gannon are planning on filling a lot of roster holes in this draft and next years. I think that is a pretty arrogant approach, but that is me. Doesn't seem likely they will pass up the offers that will be coming their way, and I don't believe they value any one player either.
Agree. I think it’s foolish. And I think it’s likely the reflect of a pair of decisionMakers both in their first go ‘round in their respective role. Neither has the lead role experience to check the other. So the arrogance of that plan snowballs. And yes, I think it’s arrogant to believe that a person who has no experience as the lead decisionmaker is going to perform as would a top 5% decisionmaker. Because that’s what you’re counting on if you believe you’re going to be successful building solely through two drafts - and from where things stand today, that certainly feels like the plan.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
61,211
Reaction score
53,622
Location
SoCal
I get the agnst for letting Murphy go. He was a solid player and losing him leaves a huge hole in the roster.

However paying Allen $15M per year didn't seem like a great investment. I mean you literally have his twin on the roster already in Cam Thomas for a tenth of the price.
Having two of those guys as a starting point on the line would have been a luxury . . .
 

Goldfield

Formally known as BEERZ
Joined
Sep 13, 2002
Posts
10,412
Reaction score
2,076
Location
ASFN
Zach Allen had a QB hit every 33 snaps last season.

Cam Thomas had a QB hit every 38 snaps as a rookie.

I'm going with Thomas at $1M per year vs Allen at $15M per year.
The problem for me is it shouldn’t be a Cam vs Zach, It should be a Cam plus Zach. addition not subtraction.
 

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
21,331
Reaction score
37,828
Location
UK
I'm not paying Allen for $3M per sack. I can find someone who can give me 5 sacks for a fraction of the cost.

Allen is so massively overblown by some in the fan base.

11 career sacks. Never more than 5.5 in a season. Below average vs the run. Just above average pass rusher.

But you know, he's young and "ascending" so give him all the money. Anyone can ascending from the literal nothing he had through his first 2 years.

He's worth $11-12m. $15.25m is a massive gamble.
 

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
21,331
Reaction score
37,828
Location
UK
The problem for me is it shouldn’t be a Cam vs Zach, It should be a Cam plus Zach. addition not subtraction.

It should, but not for $15.25m.

That's just not fair value for Allen. Especially not for a team with so many other holes.

If Denver think they can get value out of that on an already stacked defense then good for them. That money for his production is not good value for us.

Someone really needs to explain the difference to me between Zach Allen and Dawuane Smoot.

Both 3rd round picks, Allen #65 and Smoot #68. Both college Edges converted to DT's. Both zero sacks through first 2 years playing in a rotation. Both 11 sacks total in years 3 and 4 (Smoot on far less snaps than Allen). Both 26 when signing extensions.

Allen got $15.25m a year. Smoot got $5m a year just a year ago. I don't recall anyone last offseason saying Smoot should be a priority target and was an "ascending player".
 
Last edited:

Big_Red_One

Rookie
Joined
Mar 4, 2003
Posts
68
Reaction score
93
Location
Idaho?
Cool. Who replaces JJ Watts’s sacks?
Best guess, is Will Anderson at pick #4 and then a DT in rounds 3-4.

At this point, no one on the team can replace Watt's, Dhop, or Allen's production. Allen did seem like the type of team player Monti/JG would want to keep; it is frustrating to see decent young players walk.

This rebuild is going to be painful in 2023.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
540,760
Posts
5,295,361
Members
6,288
Latest member
Crazy_Player
Top