Playoffs: Suns @ Nuggets Tuesday game thread 5-9-2023 - Game 5

Covert Rain

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Why would they need to do that? That's what I'm not getting. I'm not following your logic, at all. They're over it now and need to shed that money but you're saying if they didn't make that trade they'd have to shed that money too for some reason? They'd have less holes to fill though so why would they need to worry as much about hitting the apron. Now they're at the apron and need a 5th starter and an entire bench as well as a replacement for CP3. Before they'd need a replacement for CP3 and some depth, which could be done much easier with draft picks or minimum deals.
Because if you are not under the apron you have less flexibility. You lose access to your mid-level exception, you can't sign a player waived during the regular season if their pre-wave salary is larger than the mid level. Even if you make a a trade you can only take back 110 percent verses the old 125 percent. You also can't aggregate salaries (using multiple players) to trade for one high impact player. You can't include cash in trades either.

Those are all tools the Suns would have had to use in order to round out the roster to be legit contenders. Sure we could have just stayed put but there was no title coming with that roster. That doesn't even include rookie salaries added during each year we draft someone which then have to account for being over the apron.

That doesn't even include the fact that the luxury tax rate for teams that stay over the 2nd apron for consecutive seasons will have to pay additional financial penalties.
 
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Because if you are not under the apron you have less flexibility. You lose access to your mid-level exception, you can't sign a player waived during the regular season if their pre-wave salary is larger than the mid level. Even if you make a a trade you can only take back 110 percent verses the old 125 percent. You also can't aggregate salaries (using multiple players) to sign for one high impact player. You can't include cash in trades either.

Those are all tools the Suns would have had to use in order to round out the roster to be legit contenders. Sure we could have just stayed put but there was no title coming with that roster. That doesn't even include rookie salaries added during each year we draft someone which then have to account for being over the apron.

That doesn't even include the fact that the luxury tax rate for teams that stay over the 2nd apron for consecutive seasons will have to pay financial additional financial penalties.

And we're there now with more holes to fill. So I don't see why you're using where we might have been headed to prop up where we are now.

The team we had, swept the Nuggets and the team we have are down 3-2. So how are we better now?
 
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Mainstreet

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Because if you are not under the apron you have less flexibility. You lose access to your mid-level exception, you can't sign a player waived during the regular season if their pre-wave salary is larger than the mid level. Even if you make a a trade you can only take back 110 percent verses the old 125 percent. You also can't aggregate salaries (using multiple players) to sign for one high impact player. You can't include cash in trades either.

Those are all tools the Suns would have had to use in order to round out the roster to be legit contenders. Sure we could have just stayed put but there was no title coming with that roster. That doesn't even include rookie salaries added during each year we draft someone which then have to account for being over the apron.

That doesn't even include the fact that the luxury tax rate for teams that stay over the 2nd apron for consecutive seasons will have to pay financial penalties.

I think you are operating under the after the Durant criteria.
 

Covert Rain

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And we're there now with more holes to fill. So I don't see why you're using where we might have been headed to prop up where we are now.
I am simply saying that either way the Suns had holes to fill and really no mechanism to do it while being over the apron. On one had you have a roster that proved they couldn't get it done. On the other hand you had an opportunity to trade for someone who might be able to help you get it done with a thinner bench.

IMO, one gave you a chance and the other didn't. The window is closing on all teams over the apron.
 
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Mainstreet

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I am assuming the Suns would resign Cam J for 90 million which is the current rumored market for him.

The Suns were flexible going forward before the Durant trade. Now they are very limited in what they can do.

This is the difference.
 

Covert Rain

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The Suns were flexible going forward before the Durant trade. Now they are very limited in what they can do.

This is the difference.
Suns would be about 12 million under the first apron in that scenario. Not sure you could make significant changes with that but they could have an MLE as well. More flexibility is relative with the new rules and being over the cap.
 
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Mainstreet

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Suns would be about 12 million under the first apron. Not sure you could make significant changes with that but they could have an MLE.

By the way, Paul falls off (2025) which will shed about 28 million right? The Suns might have to shed Ayton's contract worth 33 million to really do anything at all once the apron hits. Ayton might be our only hope to change the roster.

There were so many options for Phoenix.

The Suns could have shed Chris Paul for about half of the price of his $28 million contract this summer. Some teams might have jumped on that.

Also, the Suns could have easily traded Shamet's $10 million contract as an expiring contract, perhaps with an asset attached.

The Suns could have kept Saric and let his contract $9+ million contract expire.

I'm not sure if there is a lot of demand for Ayton at his salary or if some team wants to give up quality assets for him.
 

Covert Rain

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There were so many options for Phoenix.

The Suns could have shed Chris Paul for about half of the price of his $28 million contract this summer. Some teams might have jumped on that.

Also, the Suns could have easily traded Shamet's $10 million contract as an expiring contract, perhaps with an asset attached.

The Suns could have kept Saric and let his contract $9+ million contract expire.
Maybe. Chris Paul could be really hard to move until he is in the last year of his contract which (2024-2025) season. It becomes more likely the closer he gets to the end of his contract. Shamet is more far fetched. It's not expiring until 2025/2026. Not impossible but unlikely. Both would have taken assets to move especially Shamet.

In terms of Saric he wasn't contributing but the Suns took a gamble hoping Bazley could contribute.
 
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Chris Paul could be really hard to move until he is in the last year of his contract which (2024-2025) season. It becomes more likely the closer he gets to the end of his contract. Shamet is more far fetched. It's not expiring until 2025/2026. Not impossible but unlikely. Both would have taken assets to move especially Shamet.

In terms of Saric he wasn't contributing. The Suns took a gamble moving him for sure.

This is the last season Chris Paul has guaranteed money on his salary so a team could view him as an expiring, same as Shamet. So when their actual contract expires is irrelevant since a team a team could waive them before them and not be on the hook for their whole salary, only the guaranteed portion.
 
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Mainstreet

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Chris Paul could be really hard to move until he is in the last year of his contract which (2024-2025) season. It becomes more likely the closer he gets to the end of his contract. Shamet is more far fetched. It's not expiring until 2025/2026. Not impossible but unlikely. Both would have taken assets to move especially Shamet.

In terms of Saric he wasn't contributing. The Suns took a gamble moving him for sure.

Chris Paul is only guaranteed $15,800,000 next season and Shamets contract is not guaranteed beyond that.

Dario Saric's salarly would be off the books next season.

The point is the Suns would have had assets (picks) if they wanted to move Shamet or Paul without the Durant trade.
 

Covert Rain

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This is the last season Chris Paul has guaranteed money on his salary so a team could view him as an expiring, same as Shamet. So when their actual contract expires is irrelevant since a team a team could waive them before them and not be on the hook for their whole salary, only the guaranteed portion.
Chris Paul is partially guaranteed in the 2023-2024 (15.8 M). He is non-guaranteed in the 2024-2025 season. It Looks like Shamet is fully guaranteed next season but non-guaranteed for the 2024-205 season as well. It's tad more palatable but becomes more likely after next season unless it happens to align with some team shedding salary two years down the road. Not impossible.

I don't believe the Suns stick with Durant beyond next season if he doesn't get it done. So, potentially you could shed Paul, Shamet and Durant salaries in the same year. I honestly think the Suns would be moving Ayton regardless of the Durant trade now that the new CBA is looming. That's 33 million dollars were of cap space to make changes.
 
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TJ

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There were so many options for Phoenix.

The Suns could have shed Chris Paul for about half of the price of his $28 million contract this summer. Some teams might have jumped on that.

Also, the Suns could have easily traded Shamet's $10 million contract as an expiring contract, perhaps with an asset attached.

The Suns could have kept Saric and let his contract $9+ million contract expire.

I'm not sure if there is a lot of demand for Ayton at his salary or if some team wants to give up quality assets for him.
I imagine that James Jones is going to let Ayton and Bill Duffy find a trade partner. Duffy is well respected in the league and a great salesman. He’ll find some value for Ayton in the trade market
 
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Mainstreet

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I imagine that James Jones is going to let Ayton and Bill Duffy find a trade partner. Duffy is well respected in the league and a great salesman. He’ll find some value for Ayton in the trade market

Well, this is where the Suns are. I don't see many other options.
 

Covert Rain

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I imagine that James Jones is going to let Ayton and Bill Duffy find a trade partner. Duffy is well respected in the league and a great salesman. He’ll find some value for Ayton in the trade market
You can't have a guy that performs like Ayton eating up 33 Million in cap space KD trade or not. Poor ROI.
 

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I imagine that James Jones is going to let Ayton and Bill Duffy find a trade partner. Duffy is well respected in the league and a great salesman. He’ll find some value for Ayton in the trade market

Such a good salesman he found Ayton a home last off-season. Sorry but I'm not buying it. I think Ayton is a goner but letting him find his next home would be a huge mistake. We need to get maximum value for him, I don't care if that sends him to the Chinese league. He has no say in where he ends up.
 

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Also the Suns don't have dead money and they didn't before the trade unless you want to say Crowder was. He was an easily movable expiring contract that James Jones held onto for far too long and whiffed entirely on getting a return for him.
Definitely agree with this... and it burns me up. Who knows, if they had moved Crowder for a decent usable player in the preseason, maybe the team gets off to a better start, or at least has a more consistent first half of the season... and isn't so desperate by mid-season to have to make the Durant trade at any and all cost.

Instead, Jones opts to sit on Crowder most of the season out of (I firmly believe) nothing more than spite to show him up. In fact, I have to wonder if Jones wouldn't have left Crowder sit at home the whole season and just walk if the new ownership hadn't come along. I could certainly see Sarver being okay with that. The way it looked to me was that the whole thing was a big pissing match because the GM (and coach, too, no doubt) didn't like being "shown up" by one of the relatively minor players on the team.
 

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Definitely agree with this... and it burns me up. Who knows, if they had moved Crowder for a decent usable player in the preseason, maybe the team gets off to a better start, or at least has a more consistent first half of the season... and isn't so desperate by mid-season to have to make the Durant trade at any and all cost.

Instead, Jones opts to sit on Crowder most of the season out of (I firmly believe) nothing more than spite to show him up. In fact, I have to wonder if Jones wouldn't have left Crowder sit at home the whole season and just walk if the new ownership hadn't come along. I could certainly see Sarver being okay with that. The way it looked to me was that the whole thing was a big pissing match because the GM (and coach, too, no doubt) didn't like being "shown up" by one of the relatively minor players on the team.

Agree 100% which is a big reason I believe James Jones needs to be the first to go if there's any moves made this off-season. JJ has 1 real W one his resume and that was the Paul trade. I credit Monty with Cam Payne more than JJ, which would probably be the #2 move and that being the #2 says a lot about JJ's time here as GM. I know Sarver can be blamed for a lot but JJ has sat idly by while too many assets became liabilities to give him a pass. He's got to go.
 

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There were so many options for Phoenix.

The Suns could have shed Chris Paul for about half of the price of his $28 million contract this summer. Some teams might have jumped on that.

Also, the Suns could have easily traded Shamet's $10 million contract as an expiring contract, perhaps with an asset attached.

The Suns could have kept Saric and let his contract $9+ million contract expire.

I'm not sure if there is a lot of demand for Ayton at his salary or if some team wants to give up quality assets for him.
MS 4 GM
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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And we're there now with more holes to fill. So I don't see why you're using where we might have been headed to prop up where we are now.

The team we had, swept the Nuggets and the team we have are down 3-2. So how are we better now?
I’ve just been watching until now. But this is a purposefully misleading and pointless argument. You know it too. Argue better.
 

AzStevenCal

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I’ve just been watching until now. But this is a purposefully misleading and pointless argument. You know it too. Argue better.
It is, but it's no more misleading and pointless than saying we couldn't possibly win a championship with the old roster because they'd already lost twice.
 

Hoop Head

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I’ve just been watching until now. But this is a purposefully misleading and pointless argument. You know it too. Argue better.

That's the best reply you got, "argue better"? lol why not just accept this team now isn't as unbeatable as you envisioned or the window hasn't opened as you claim.
 
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Mainstreet

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And we're there now with more holes to fill. So I don't see why you're using where we might have been headed to prop up where we are now.

The team we had, swept the Nuggets and the team we have are down 3-2. So how are we better now?

The Nuggets kept their core and built on it after being swept 4-0 by the Suns.

The Suns could have done the same with all their draft picks but decided to throw a Hail Mary pass.
 
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