Playoffs: Suns @ Nuggets Tuesday game thread 5-9-2023 - Game 5

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Most of us, probably all of us, that were against that trade, hold that opinion because we don't want to return to that lost decade and this move almost insures it will happen (in our opinion). That isn't the same thing as being content with just having an exciting regular season and not caring about anything else. So you're way off base and yes, it is insulting. Nobody that wants to say something pleasant or even neutral about another poster reduces someone's argument to simply being a 50 and fade fan.

I’m not off base. Over the years there have literally been multiple posters that explicitly stated that.

We will just agree to disagree.

If we hadn’t traded Durant what would’ve been your recommended path to returning to championship contender? No cap space. If make a trade you’re losing either all the draft picks or bridges or cam or both. And we are likely still good enough to be 3-6 seed, so draft picks in the 20s. No apparent star out there disgruntled. What was your path?

 

[AzStevenCal]

I’m not off base. Over the years there have literally been multiple posters that explicitly stated that.

We will just agree to disagree.

If we hadn’t traded Durant what would’ve been your recommended path to returning to championship contender? No cap space. If make a trade you’re losing either all the draft picks or bridges or cam or both. And we are likely still good enough to be 3-6 seed, so draft picks in the 20s. No apparent star out there disgruntled. What was your path?

But how are you tying any of that to the KD argument? The most ardent detractors of the trade have made it clear that it has to do with the value we gave up, not because we could care less about winning it all. And I haven't seen anyone suggest they are against the trade because they only care about being an exciting team.

As for what I would have done. I'd have not gone all in on a desperate move until CP3's contract ran out or was traded away. We took a risk trying to jumpstart our timeline, CP3 was the result. It looked good for awhile but it backfired so we needed to take our lumps. If Chris had still been a top 40 player or so, the trade for KD might have made some sense even if it cost us those picks. But we were too far away to expect an aging star to make up for not only what we lacked but what we were giving up too.

And now, I'd fire the decision makers and bring in someone like Kenny Atkinson. Trade KD, trade Chris, trade Booker and trade anyone else that can gain us something of value except DA. I'd pump him up and force feed him down low until his numbers attracted a foolish GM and then I'd trade him too. And I hate this idea. But we're screwed and I don't see another way out. Fortunately we have an owner willing to spend, hopefully he'll stay that way after we bottom out for a couple years.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

But how are you tying any of that to the KD argument? The most ardent detractors of the trade have made it clear that it has to do with the value we gave up, not because we could care less about winning it all. And I haven't seen anyone suggest they are against the trade because they only care about being an exciting team.

As for what I would have done. I'd have not gone all in on a desperate move until CP3's contract ran out or was traded away. We took a risk trying to jumpstart our timeline, CP3 was the result. It looked good for awhile but it backfired so we needed to take our lumps. If Chris had still been a top 40 player or so, the trade for KD might have made some sense even if it cost us those picks. But we were too far away to expect an aging star to make up for not only what we lacked but what we were giving up too.

And now, I'd fire the decision makers and bring in someone like Kenny Atkinson. Trade KD, trade Chris, trade Booker and trade anyone else that can gain us something of value except DA. I'd pump him up and force feed him down low until his numbers attracted a foolish GM and then I'd trade him too. And I hate this idea. But we're screwed and I don't see another way out. Fortunately we have an owner willing to spend, hopefully he'll stay that way after we bottom out for a couple years.

Wow. Well, that’s one way to go. Anyone else have “trade everyone” on their bingo cards?

Btw, telling me what you wouldn’t have done isn’t telling me what the realistic path to getting back to contender status was with the pre-trade roster would have been. And I’m not asking to egg you on. I am legitimately interested to hear how some of you thought the suns could get back to a championship status.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Wow. Well, that’s one way to go. Anyone else have “trade everyone” on their bingo cards?

Btw, telling me what you wouldn’t have done isn’t telling me what the realistic path to getting back to contender status was with the pre-trade roster would have been. And I’m not asking to egg you on. I am legitimately interested to hear how some of you thought the suns could get back to a championship status.

To a degree you're asking me to predict the future. I don't know who I'd go after but Durant wasn't going to be the last good player available for trade.

Had Durant been 30 and healthy we could have made that trade and had time to build a contender around him and Booker. But at his age, it puts us in a win immediately mode without having the assets to make that happen.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

To a degree you're asking me to predict the future. I don't know who I'd go after but Durant wasn't going to be the last good player available for trade.

Had Durant been 30 and healthy we could have made that trade and had time to build a contender around him and Booker. But at his age, it puts us in a win immediately mode without having the assets to make that happen.

I mean everyone in this board engages in conjecture all the time. I’m asking you what the realistic path upward could have been. Many of us played with the idea of trading for Durant last year because there were whispers he wanted to play with book. It was realistic to discuss that path. You obviously believed that the suns could get back to being contenders with the prior roster and I’m asking you why you believed that? What bits and pieces did you see as realistically being available for the suns as Paul deteriorated and Ayton showed his true colors and crowder wasn’t going to play or bring us back anything if value? To my knowledge there’s not currently a disgruntled star that’s looking longingly at the suns. So what trades or other avenues do you believe to be realistic to avoid 50s and fade seasons?

 

[AzStevenCal]

I mean everyone in this board engages in conjecture all the time. I’m asking you what the realistic path upward could have been. Many of us played with the idea of trading for Durant last year because there were whispers he wanted to play with book. It was realistic to discuss that path. You obviously believed that the suns could get back to being contenders with the prior roster and I’m asking you why you believed that? What bits and pieces did you see as realistically being available for the suns as Paul deteriorated and Ayton showed his true colors and crowder wasn’t going to play or bring us back anything if value? To my knowledge there’s not currently a disgruntled star that’s looking longingly at the suns. So what trades or other avenues do you believe to be realistic to avoid 50s and fade seasons?

I thought the old roster could be improved to a championship contender but it wouldn't happen right away. CP3's decline plus Ayton's undependability meant we would have had to solve the PG and Center positions while still needing to improve our depth. I think our best bet was to draft a point guard this season and/or sign someone like Tre Jones. And with DA moving on, try to trade for someone like Hartenstein or even a place holder such as Mason Plumlee or Kelly Olynyk. Those moves wouldn't make us a real contender until the PG grew up but like I said, we were too far away for an instant fix.

 

[Phrazbit]

I mean everyone in this board engages in conjecture all the time. I’m asking you what the realistic path upward could have been. Many of us played with the idea of trading for Durant last year because there were whispers he wanted to play with book. It was realistic to discuss that path. You obviously believed that the suns could get back to being contenders with the prior roster and I’m asking you why you believed that? What bits and pieces did you see as realistically being available for the suns as Paul deteriorated and Ayton showed his true colors and crowder wasn’t going to play or bring us back anything if value? To my knowledge there’s not currently a disgruntled star that’s looking longingly at the suns. So what trades or other avenues do you believe to be realistic to avoid 50s and fade seasons?

Multiple star players get moved every single year. I guarantee there will be multiple superstars, swapping teams, this summer.

We, in a panic, settled on an aging star, with a ton of red flags and a really brief window to contend... instead of waiting for a someone that not only would improve us, but extend our window. I know you want a specific, but I guarantee you there will be guys in the next few months that we would all agree that "that guy, that guy or that guy" would be better options... and we will have probably given up more in trade value than whatever these next stars get moved for.

The opportunity cost was monumental. Among the teams vying for a title, we were one of the richest in trade assets... we surrendered it all and seemingly will get nothing out of it, even in the short term.

I hate that I feel this low on the situation but it is what it is. The KD I saw in these playoffs doesn't merely have a "brief window" to contend... he doesn't have one at all. We need him to miraculously get more durable and to stop sucking in games that matter.

I think Ishbia has potential to be a great owner, but I think he came out the gate with what will likely go down as the worst move in franchise history.

I need to start eating more avocados, riding the bike some more... do some little things to make sure I am around when we benefit from the learning curve.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I thought the old roster could be improved to a championship contender but it wouldn't happen right away. CP3's decline plus Ayton's undependability meant we would have had to solve the PG and Center positions while still needing to improve our depth. I think our best bet was to draft a point guard this season and/or sign someone like Tre Jones. And with DA moving on, try to trade for someone like Hartenstein or even a place holder such as Mason Plumlee or Kelly Olynyk. Those moves wouldn't make us a real contender until the PG grew up but like I said, we were too far away for an instant fix.

This is helpful.

I’m curious where the cap space comes from to sign a tre jones when we have to sign cam Johnson. And the draft pick we are looking at is like 21 in a draft that is somewhat devoid of pgs. The closest one I’m seeing in mocks is a kid from Indians who gets picked 15th, so likely not to reach us. Looking at past drafts that’s like a tyty Washington or upside is tre Mann. The likelihood of those guys elevating in the next three years isn’t very high. We aren’t talking about lotto picks or even picks right outside the lottery.

And despite what phrazebit claims there aren’t multiple stars that change teams every season unless you want to call the bridges of the world “stars.” And there’s little guarantee that the suns are their particular destination. And we have no idea what would have to be sacrificed to get them, but we know it would be someone.

So I guess where I sit is a) by your own admission we weren’t a contender with the old roster any longer; b) you would be relying the acquisition of big players like olyneks and tre joneses or late first round choices and the hope that some star might want to come to Phoenix and hopefully for low compensation. I see that as a likely long, and probably fruitless attempt at a championship caliber team. I think that team makes the playoffs a bunch but never gets to the WCFs again. That’s why I call it a 50s and fade route. You may not want the fade, but you do want the route that I believe leads to the fade. That was my point.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

. I know you want a specific, but I guarantee you there will be guys in the next few months that we would all agree that "that guy, that guy or that guy" would be better options... and we will have probably given up more in trade value than whatever these next stars get moved for.

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this will indeed be interesting to monitor.

 

[Yuma]

I am looking more glass half full on Durant. I have watched him for his whole career, and this is literally the WORST stretch I have seen him play. Even playing that bad, he's better than 90 percent of the league. He was in the top ten players during this playoffs, and as I said, this is literally the worst I have seen him play. I think he's still recovering from his injury, just guessing.

So we have two top guys to rebuild the roster around.

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There's literally 10 guys we can jettison if we want. This team will be entirely different net year.

 

[elindholm]

"Championship," you mean.

This is aging well.