Playoffs: Suns @ Nuggets Tuesday game thread 5-9-2023 - Game 5

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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You literally said something nobody said which is the definition of shifting the goal post but I digress. I said that we can get something for KD because there will be teams hungry for a title. Unlike you I am not pretending to know what we can get. So much plays into that. So, let me be clear so you don’t continue to make stuff up that is not being said. As long as his numbers don’t cave teams will be happy to take almost 30 PPG. For what? Not sure. Saying other wise is ludicrous. Naturally all bets are off if he is hurt or his game goes completely south. Nobody suggested we are getting the same haul we sent out. NOBODY.
Even if he drops to 25/game some contender is going to say “that could push us over the top” and trade a couple of assets. In my mind taking the swing on Durant and being able to maybe mitigate the trade after next season if it doesn’t work would be worth it.
 

AzStevenCal

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I’d like for you to find any post on ASFN predicting anything close to the new CBA.
Well I certainly had no clue it was coming and if I'd heard the details I would have wagered against the players ratifying it as it's eventually going to have to drive down the high end salaries. But do you really think it wasn't discussed amongst the owners before submitting it to the players association? And don't they, as a group, have to give final approval to it?
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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You said someone would pay "big" and I assigned half of what we traded for him as "big", which I believe is fair since that's still a relatively "big" haul. I also explained how teams are limited in what they could offer in a deal since tax paying teams can't combine smaller salaries to equal KD's in a trade so any sort of return we could get would be limited to bad contracts, basically. That doesn't sound like someone offering a big return, as you claimed. Now you want to quibble over what I believe big is, fine. No one has paid positive value for an aging superstar at the end of their career, which is part of why the Suns couldn't just move CP3 for value. He's the same age KD will be after 2 more seasons, give or take a few months, and has durability issues as well, like KD. Old stars aren't moved for big hauls, as you claim will be possible, especially given the new restrictions to the CBA. For it to happen in 2 years would be the first time it has happened, unless someone does it between now and then, so we're stuck in this spot hitching our wagon to an aging KD. Let's hope Booker is ok with spending the beginning of his prime years with 2 over the hill co-stars for help because there's no quick fix here unless we can dup some team into paying a kings ransom for Ayton.
Hmm Barkley was traded when he was 33, clearly wasn’t playing at durants level (wasn’t considered an MVP candidate at the time as Durant was pre-injury this season) and netted us four players, including two young up and comers in horry and cassell.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I know Barkley was just an example but to me his case points out one of the problems we're going to be facing. Durant, if he was playing at a superstar level, at almost 50 Million per would still be a negative value contract and so far, we've yet to see quite that level from him. But even assuming it's on the horizon he will be a tough sell for other teams looking to add their last piece given the cap and the new rules.

Barkley, back then was in decline, but he was only making about 18% of the Cap whereas KD will be making almost 36% of ours. Plus Barkley was 32 when he played his first game for Houston and KD will be 35 before he plays his next regular season game.
I believe Barkley was 33 and heading into his 34th years of age season. But Barkley’s game also depended a lot more on strength and athleticism being shorter for his position and he’s strength was already declining due to his back issues which are chronic.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Well I certainly had no clue it was coming and if I'd heard the details I would have wagered against the players ratifying it as it's eventually going to have to drive down the high end salaries. But do you really think it wasn't discussed amongst the owners before submitting it to the players association? And don't they, as a group, have to give final approval to it?
Sure, but our owner literally just became an owner. I’ll give him a pass for that one.
 

Chaplin

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I don't think you understand how the cap works in this situation.

We would have been over the threshold either way but STILL with less in salary than the Suns are currently projected to pay.

Your idea that we would have let him walk is complete nonsense.
Huh? Where did I say that? We wouldn't have let him walk, we likely would have traded him anyway. And guess what? That's what we did. If we really wanted him as you are implying, we would have signed him to an extension last summer.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Thought this was interesting . . . listening to NBA radio this morning the hosts were talking about winning and games played being meaningless for awards and all nba. In particular they picked out Dame. They said they bet Durant won games than Dame this season. In regular season games Durant actually played this year for the nets and suns he went 36-13. That’s a 60 game win pace. In other words, durants personal winning percentage this season is better than literally every other teams winning percentage this season.
 

AzStevenCal

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Hmm Barkley was traded when he was 33, clearly wasn’t playing at durants level (wasn’t considered an MVP candidate at the time as Durant was pre-injury this season) and netted us four players, including two young up and comers in horry and cassell.
You're right, I did the math wrong, he was 33. But as for being "young up and comers", Horry turned 26 less than 3 weeks into his first season with us and Cassell was 27 when the season started. Horry was a nightmare for the Houston coach, he had star potential but rarely played to that level. I thought Cassell was a solid asset but CB and a 2nd round pick should have been worth more than that IMO.

For whatever it's worth, Durant's PER in Brooklyn this season was 26.2 while Barkley's was 24.8. And Charles led in VORP 5.1 to 3.2. Maybe someone skilled with the more advanced stats can point out the weakness in my reasoning but it looks to me that there wasn't a demonstrable difference in court value between them.
 

AzStevenCal

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We have a lot of fans that are happy with 50 and fade. It’s tough for them to understand that NBA teams will willing push all their chips in at the chance at a title. The only teams that can do that and maintain long term success contemporaneously are those that drafted incredibly well. That is not us. If Ayton had been a legit #1 with his play it would’ve been us. Heck, we would have beaten the bucks for the championship.
If this was leveled at you simply because you strongly disagreed with a move the team made, wouldn't you find it more than a little insulting? I know I do, and have, each time the pro-KDtrade posters have described us that way.

I don't have time for a rebuild. I want to see the team win a championship and for me, that needs to happen in the next few years. I think we did probably the worst thing we could have possibly done to bring that to fruition. It's one thing to tell me I'm wrong, it's another to dismiss my opinion with such nonsense. And if it wasn't aimed at me (or others plus me), show me who here really would prefer a 50 and fade team to a team that has a real chance at winning it all.
 

Chaplin

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If this was leveled at you simply because you strongly disagreed with a move the team made, wouldn't you find it more than a little insulting? I know I do, and have, each time the pro-KDtrade posters have described us that way.

I don't have time for a rebuild. I want to see the team win a championship and for me, that needs to happen in the next few years. I think we did probably the worst thing we could have possibly done to bring that to fruition. It's one thing to tell me I'm wrong, it's another to dismiss my opinion with such nonsense. And if it wasn't aimed at me (or others plus me), show me who here really would prefer a 50 and fade team to a team that has a real chance at winning it all.
You’re wrong and it’s because your opinion is nonsense. ;)
 

Covert Rain

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If this was leveled at you simply because you strongly disagreed with a move the team made, wouldn't you find it more than a little insulting? I know I do, and have, each time the pro-KDtrade posters have described us that way.

I don't have time for a rebuild. I want to see the team win a championship and for me, that needs to happen in the next few years. I think we did probably the worst thing we could have possibly done to bring that to fruition. It's one thing to tell me I'm wrong, it's another to dismiss my opinion with such nonsense. And if it wasn't aimed at me (or others plus me), show me who here really would prefer a 50 and fade team to a team that has a real chance at winning it all.
I think he was being slightly facetious with the 50 and fade thing. This is not directed specifically at you Steve but I am with @Ouchie-Z-Clown with the sentiment that has been around for years. I have seen people post repeatedly things like "at least we will be competitive" or "fun to watch" again. People on board with the status quo of slow builds that end up not working over and over again. It's been 55 years of trying to build through the draft, fielding fun teams, tweaking rosters and nothing has worked. Ayton who should be a cornerstone feels anything but. Again..more of the same. We missed AGAIN. To add insult to injury he was the only #1 overall pick we are likely to see for a very long time.

55 years of futility in any sports requires two things. Taking more risk then most people are comfortable with and changing how things are done. It's no coincidence that in modern times the two times we have gotten the closest is after trading for Barkley and then CP3. That's what it is going to take because the Suns can't ride a legacy on their name alone in a big market like the Lakers who seemingly reload every few years.

If you truly need something to happen in the next few years? With this team in this market? It's going to require moves like the KD one to have a shot. 55 years of our history here proves that accurate. I get the appetite for how much risk a team should take is likely a personal preference. So, everyone is clear....I don't begrudge any of you having a different appetite for risk. It's fair if we all don't agree. We gave up a ton. NO QUESTION.

If this KD thing flops? At least we took a shot. At least this feels different then what we have been doing for decades. That's why success or not I won't regret it. It might be painful after this window is over but I won't regret taking a shot.
 

AzStevenCal

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Nah, when it includes the "and fade" it's insulting no matter how you break it down. Are some fans content with a team that only wins 50 games? Probably. But are there posters that want 50 wins and could care less if we ever have a chance to win it all? I highly doubt it.

Using it in any situation is dubious, using it as a counter to the fans that despised the trade can only be viewed as an insult. It means we can't reason, we're just dumb sheep, pacified by our 50 win team. Don't get me wrong, as insults go it's fairly mild and it won't cost me or anyone any sleep, but it's unnecessary and unfair.
 

Hoop Head

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Man you like the cherry pick to make bad arguments sometime. No one his age that was averaging his numbers had ever been traded period.

You like to focus on how someone is discussing something rather than what is being discussed. It's a slick move often used to distract from a point you can't easily refute.
 

Hoop Head

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I’d like for you to find any post on ASFN predicting anything close to the new CBA.

What does that have to do with the GM and owner forseeing changes to the CBA? Nothing. Not sure why someone here predicting the new CBA matters.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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You're right, I did the math wrong, he was 33. But as for being "young up and comers", Horry turned 26 less than 3 weeks into his first season with us and Cassell was 27 when the season started. Horry was a nightmare for the Houston coach, he had star potential but rarely played to that level. I thought Cassell was a solid asset but CB and a 2nd round pick should have been worth more than that IMO.

For whatever it's worth, Durant's PER in Brooklyn this season was 26.2 while Barkley's was 24.8. And Charles led in VORP 5.1 to 3.2. Maybe someone skilled with the more advanced stats can point out the weakness in my reasoning but it looks to me that there wasn't a demonstrable difference in court value between them.
People are complaining we got rid of two ascending players in bridges and cam who are the same ages and likely had similar value. If kd is close in his numbers next offseason he can net us one of those types of players and a late first from a contender. No doubt in my mind.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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If this was leveled at you simply because you strongly disagreed with a move the team made, wouldn't you find it more than a little insulting? I know I do, and have, each time the pro-KDtrade posters have described us that way.

I don't have time for a rebuild. I want to see the team win a championship and for me, that needs to happen in the next few years. I think we did probably the worst thing we could have possibly done to bring that to fruition. It's one thing to tell me I'm wrong, it's another to dismiss my opinion with such nonsense. And if it wasn't aimed at me (or others plus me), show me who here really would prefer a 50 and fade team to a team that has a real chance at winning it all.
If you’re one of posters that doesn’t believe in swinging for the fences for a championship when it’s close then yes you fall into that category. And there have been a LOT of posters that have said they’d be happy to just have an entertaining competitive team rather than shoot for the stats with the potential to fall back into being bad again.

Keeping what we had and hoping some unicorn trade was going to somehow add to the nucleas, or that we were likely to hit on another star with late draft picks (you know, the Ty Jerome’s) is pretty much banking on 50 and fades. Particularly with Paul’s demise and Ayton’s true colors showing. You’re welcome to disagree.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I think he was being slightly facetious with the 50 and fade thing. This is not directed specifically at you Steve but I am with @Ouchie-Z-Clown with the sentiment that has been around for years. I have seen people post repeatedly things like "at least we will be competitive" or "fun to watch" again. People on board with the status quo of slow builds that end up not working over and over again. It's been 55 years of trying to build through the draft, fielding fun teams, tweaking rosters and nothing has worked. Ayton who should be a cornerstone feels anything but. Again..more of the same. We missed AGAIN. To add insult to injury he was the only #1 overall pick we are likely to see for a very long time.

55 years of futility in any sports requires two things. Taking more risk then most people are comfortable with and changing how things are done. It's no coincidence that in modern times the two times we have gotten the closest is after trading for Barkley and then CP3. That's what it is going to take because the Suns can't ride a legacy on their name alone in a big market like the Lakers who seemingly reload every few years.

If you truly need something to happen in the next few years? With this team in this market? It's going to require moves like the KD one to have a shot. 55 years of our history here proves that accurate. I get the appetite for how much risk a team should take is likely a personal preference. So, everyone is clear....I don't begrudge any of you having a different appetite for risk. It's fair if we all don't agree. We gave up a ton. NO QUESTION.

If this KD thing flops? At least we took a shot. At least this feels different then what we have been doing for decades. That's why success or not I won't regret it. It might be painful after this window is over but I won't regret taking a shot.
Well said. This is where I reside. Imo this team is all book and kd. Literally everyone else is replaceable and I hope our front office believes that. Whether it’s possible or not, who knows? But we have the most important ingredients . . . two stars. Those are the most difficult pieces of the puzzle.
 

Phrazbit

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If you’re one of posters that doesn’t believe in swinging for the fences for a championship when it’s close then yes you fall into that category. And there have been a LOT of posters that have said they’d be happy to just have an entertaining competitive team rather than shoot for the stats with the potential to fall back into being bad again.

Keeping what we had and hoping some unicorn trade was going to somehow add to the nucleas, or that we were likely to hit on another star with late draft picks (you know, the Ty Jerome’s) is pretty much banking on 50 and fades. Particularly with Paul’s demise and Ayton’s true colors showing. You’re welcome to disagree.

Last season traumatized the whole fan base and they won 64 games. This "people want 50 and fade" stuff is absolute rubbish.

There is difference between being aggressive and going for a title and making panic moves that are far more likely to amount to cutting off your nose to spite your face.
 

AzStevenCal

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People are complaining we got rid of two ascending players in bridges and cam who are the same ages and likely had similar value. If kd is close in his numbers next offseason he can net us one of those types of players and a late first from a contender. No doubt in my mind.
Yeah, I saw your post about it earlier, that's why I pointed it out. Personally, I think some 26 and 27 year olds are just approaching their peak and others have already reached it. I think CamJ is pretty close to his peak. Bridges still has room to grow IMO although I believe the great numbers he put up in Brooklyn are more of a mirage than indicative of his future. He's a great team player but if he's your big star I think your team success is pretty limited.

Prior to the cap, I would have thought we could net something like what you've described too. But now, trading him for positive value in the future is going to be very difficult until he's in his last year. We could maybe get a bad contract or two plus a pick or a Bazely type prospect.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Nah, when it includes the "and fade" it's insulting no matter how you break it down. Are some fans content with a team that only wins 50 games? Probably. But are there posters that want 50 wins and could care less if we ever have a chance to win it all? I highly doubt it.

Using it in any situation is dubious, using it as a counter to the fans that despised the trade can only be viewed as an insult. It means we can't reason, we're just dumb sheep, pacified by our 50 win team. Don't get me wrong, as insults go it's fairly mild and it won't cost me or anyone any sleep, but it's unnecessary and unfair.
It’s not meant to be insulting and there 100% fans that are happy just making the playoffs and never really challenging for a title if it means never going back to the lost decade. That’s the very definition of being okay with 50 and fade.

And it’s my opinion that your desired course of action would result in same. You’re welcome to disagree with me, but I have yet to see any convincing argument that it wouldn’t have been 50 and fade repeatedly.
 

AzStevenCal

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If you’re one of posters that doesn’t believe in swinging for the fences for a championship when it’s close then yes you fall into that category. And there have been a LOT of posters that have said they’d be happy to just have an entertaining competitive team rather than shoot for the stats with the potential to fall back into being bad again.

Keeping what we had and hoping some unicorn trade was going to somehow add to the nucleas, or that we were likely to hit on another star with late draft picks (you know, the Ty Jerome’s) is pretty much banking on 50 and fades. Particularly with Paul’s demise and Ayton’s true colors showing. You’re welcome to disagree.
Who? And who among the ones arguing against this trade from the onset fall in that group? I don't know any despite the fact I've now seen us labeled like you did probably a half dozen times. It's insulting and has no basis in reality. We want to win it all, we just believe that this specific move greatly reduced our chances of that happening in the next decade. Maybe we're wrong but we're no more delusional than you guys are (delusional is in response to your unicorn comment).

CP3 was in decline prior to the trade, that much was obvious. DA wasn't that third guy we needed, that much was clear. So some of us did not believe that we could just replace a couple guys from our core with KD and all of a sudden become a true contender. If it was KD of old, it probably would have gotten us marginally closer to a title in the very short run but we'd still be a longshot. And we didn't get the KD of old.
 

AzStevenCal

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It’s not meant to be insulting and there 100% fans that are happy just making the playoffs and never really challenging for a title if it means never going back to the lost decade. That’s the very definition of being okay with 50 and fade.

And it’s my opinion that your desired course of action would result in same. You’re welcome to disagree with me, but I have yet to see any convincing argument that it wouldn’t have been 50 and fade repeatedly.
Most of us, probably all of us, that were against that trade, hold that opinion because we don't want to return to that lost decade and this move almost insures it will happen (in our opinion). That isn't the same thing as being content with just having an exciting regular season and not caring about anything else. So you're way off base and yes, it is insulting. Nobody that wants to say something pleasant or even neutral about another poster reduces someone's argument to simply being a 50 and fade fan.
 

AzStevenCal

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Both of you, Ouchie and Steve present great arguments without attacking the poster. Refreshing.
I thought about calling him a name but he's an attorney and has probably heard them all and I didn't want to look like an amateur. So I'm saving up my Gummi Bears in case I see him on the tough streets of Moreno Valley.
 

AZ Native

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I thought about calling him a name but he's an attorney and has probably heard them all and I didn't want to look like an amateur. So I'm saving up my Gummi Bears in case I see him on the tough streets of Moreno Valley.
:D
 
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