Last Stallion was only 86% fresh and wasn't as good of a movie.
Marvel's The Avengers
- Thread starter bankybruce
- Start date
Last Stallion was only 86% fresh and wasn't as good of a movie.
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2003
- Posts
- 88,655
- Reaction score
- 61,403
matter of opinion. People were talking about the TDK as a possible Best Picture nominee and that movie was THE reason the Academy broadened the Best Picture nominees from 5 to 10. i haven't seen ONE review that puts the Avengers in that class of film.
I guess I just don't see corny as part of popcorny. But i agree it's incredibly difficult to put together a fantastic 4 quadrant film... i just didn't find it fantastic. It was really good and the movie absolutely cooked for the last hour, but it was a tad slow in the beginning for my tastes.
then again, it INCREDIBLY difficult to have a film as dark as TDK was be the cultural phenomenam it was. That was a movie that took genuine risks that you just don't see in the genre. What blockbuster does the hero NOT save the girl... what movie does the hero sacrifice himself to basically become the villain at the end of the film? I can think of... none and it was pulled off amazingly well. That movie was not only an incredible action movie, but a thinker as well IMO. The Avengers was pure old fashioned leave your brain at the door and be entertained as hell. again, matter of opinion.
agree to disagree again, but i can definitely see how you can say that.
I am very excited to see the new Spiderman though. It appears to actually stick to the story.
The Dark Knight storyline is actually pretty close to the real Spiderman / Green Goblin storyline. Spiderman doesn't save the girl. He becomes hunted..ect. As someone who grew up reading comic books, the Dark Knight has been told over and over again.
Still, it was perfectly done. I remember just wanting to leave the theater so I could see light again. Where it falls apart for me is in rewatchability, because I can't be subsumed by the film and it's flaws stand out.
I feel like we are debating Jameson 12 year to Bookers. Both are fantastic but have different tastes.
The Dark Knight storyline is actually pretty close to the real Spiderman / Green Goblin storyline. Spiderman doesn't save the girl. He becomes hunted..ect. As someone who grew up reading comic books, the Dark Knight has been told over and over again.
Still, it was perfectly done. I remember just wanting to leave the theater so I could see light again. Where it falls apart for me is in rewatchability, because I can't be subsumed by the film and it's flaws stand out.
I feel like we are debating Jameson 12 year to Bookers. Both are fantastic but have different tastes.
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2003
- Posts
- 88,655
- Reaction score
- 61,403
fair enough.
I remember having the same feeling leaving TDK... but for me... it just held up upon second and third viewings and i didn't have that feeling going back to see the Avengers. I'd love to see anything Hulk related over and over again, but to me, that was kind of the only revelation of the film that just blew me away. everything else was really good, but not run back to the theater to see it again good. just personal opinion.
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2003
- Posts
- 88,655
- Reaction score
- 61,403
interesting... i have no desire to see it. Not a big Andrew Garfield fan and it just seems like they're trying to darken Spidey up, whereas i've always seen him in the Superman, all-American popcorn type of story.
Not at all. He is a lot closer to Batman than Superman.
Both became vigilantes based on family member deaths. Both use a healthy amount of pseudo science to enhance their abilities. Both are wanted men in their cities. Both are tortured by their inadequacies.
Chaplin
Better off silent
The Avengers vs. The Dark Knight is sort of a pointless arguement. The Dark Knight was about the evil that men do while the Avengers is more on the heroic side.
Surprisingly enough, I agree with cheese that The Avengers is more of a "popcorn" flick than TDK was. But that doesn't automatically mean "bad". Sure, some popcorn flicks are awful, like the Transformers series for example, but some are great. Hell, find me one person that doesn't think Raiders of the Lost Ark is a popcorn flick and that is considered one of the best action films of ALL TIME.
Unlike cheese, however, I absolutely think The Avengers is one of the best superhero movies ever. It certainly has entered my top 5 of all time:
(in no particular order)
The Dark Knight
The Avengers
X2
Spider-Man 2
Batman Returns
with Superman 2 a VERY close 6th.
Surprisingly enough, I agree with cheese that The Avengers is more of a "popcorn" flick than TDK was. But that doesn't automatically mean "bad". Sure, some popcorn flicks are awful, like the Transformers series for example, but some are great. Hell, find me one person that doesn't think Raiders of the Lost Ark is a popcorn flick and that is considered one of the best action films of ALL TIME.
Unlike cheese, however, I absolutely think The Avengers is one of the best superhero movies ever. It certainly has entered my top 5 of all time:
(in no particular order)
The Dark Knight
The Avengers
X2
Spider-Man 2
Batman Returns
with Superman 2 a VERY close 6th.
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2003
- Posts
- 88,655
- Reaction score
- 61,403
i'll admit... I have an irrational love for Superman 2. it's a little goofy, but Zod is one of the greatest bad-guys ever and i love Ursula and Nod... and it's a good arc for Superman... and i love watching him go back to that diner and kick that guy's ass at the end.
it's also got an incredible finale starting with one of the greatest super-hero set pieces in NY and ending at the Fortress of Solitude.
I think my biggest gripe with the Avengers besides the pacing was Loki... who was really good in the role... but he basically just had a faceless army and he himself isn't that imposing of a physical threat. He just wasn't a Zod, Joker, Doc Ock for me and thus, as awesome as the action was in the finale, it didn't have the same kind of emotional weight as the other movies had for me.
Stout
Hold onto the ball, Murray!
When I read popcorn flick, I read it as a crappy movie, and that is what the colloquial meaning of popcorn flick is. Here's urban dictionary for you:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=popcorn movie
Basically, you're using popcorn flick out of context to mean a pretty good movie to watch. I agree with your sentiment, but you're wording is wrong
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=popcorn movie
Basically, you're using popcorn flick out of context to mean a pretty good movie to watch. I agree with your sentiment, but you're wording is wrong
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2003
- Posts
- 88,655
- Reaction score
- 61,403
When I read popcorn flick, I read it as a crappy movie, and that is what the colloquial meaning of popcorn flick is. Here's urban dictionary for you:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=popcorn movie
Basically, you're using popcorn flick out of context to mean a pretty good movie to watch. I agree with your sentiment, but you're wording is wrong
lol... I don't know anyone who uses that term like that who works in the industry.
Definitely not a popcorn flick. Sorry, but most popcorn flicks are described as "fun" movies with little plot and not much story.
How someone could go and see this film and not see that the quality of writing was better than a popcorn flick like Transformers is beyond me. In many ways I see a film like this more complex to write than say the TDK. Many described Dark Knight as being good because it felt like a crime story that happened to be about a super hero.
However, this film required someone who could not only appease fan boys, get the comics to come off the page, give enough character screen time, intertwine action, comedy and keep the script coherent was a massive accomplishment IMO.
I know people who are not even comic book fans that loved this movie. None of that says popcorn to me. To even mention this film with the likes of Transformers and other cinema popcorn films is definitely not giving credit to how good this movie is.
How someone could go and see this film and not see that the quality of writing was better than a popcorn flick like Transformers is beyond me. In many ways I see a film like this more complex to write than say the TDK. Many described Dark Knight as being good because it felt like a crime story that happened to be about a super hero.
However, this film required someone who could not only appease fan boys, get the comics to come off the page, give enough character screen time, intertwine action, comedy and keep the script coherent was a massive accomplishment IMO.
I know people who are not even comic book fans that loved this movie. None of that says popcorn to me. To even mention this film with the likes of Transformers and other cinema popcorn films is definitely not giving credit to how good this movie is.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2003
- Posts
- 88,655
- Reaction score
- 61,403
most popcorn flicks made NOW are exactly what you describe, but the original popcorn flicks weren't. They were this. Great characters, solid story, an flat out entertainment. This was almost that IMO.
agreed... but considering NO ONE said that the quality of writing here was the same as a popcorn flick like Transformer, I don't know what the above has to do with anything.
Transformers 2 and 3 were complete and utter FAILURES as popcorn flicks. This was a really good Popcorn flick, something that IS very hard to write. But again, no one compared the actual writing within these films. Just that they fall into the same genre... where the goal is to entertain above all else. The Avengers did a really good job of that. The Transformer movies **** the bed.
I don't. And that's not to say that I think writing drama is inherently harder than writing pure entertainment/comedy, because both are INCREDIBLY difficult to do.
I think transcending a genre and making a comic book movie feel MORE than a comic book is a testament to another level of writing and making a crime film which rakes in 500 million dollars is an incredible feat when you consider that the only type of movies that make that kind of scratch are movies that are much lighter in tone and easier for the general public to swallow.
seriously... go look at the next highest grossing crime film and tell me TDK didn't do something RIDICULOUSLY special compared to the rest of the genre.
Transformers is only brought up because of the GENRE. Not because of it's quality. How you guys don't get this is beyond me.
Tranformers is a popcorn flick, but it's an UTTER FAILURE. This was close to being a triumph. The way popcorn films used to be. Movies like Indiana Jones, Star Wars, Goonies Pure, unadulterated entertainment.
I mean... jesus guys... it's a COMIC BOOK MOVIE. It's the VERY DEFINITION of a popcorn flick.
We have to agree to disagree. I think in modern times everybody almost universally thinks of Popcorn films as mindless fun with little substance.
Some definitions I found:
Popcorn Flick - A movie is guaranteed to be, "eh". One that is sure not to win any awards. One only goes to see it as a excuse to eat popcorn and other junk food with friends. Sometimes with the intention of insulting it afterword.
Popcorn Flick - A movie that is mindless fun and has one thing (special effects, action, etc) and nothing else.
That does not describe the Avengers in the slightest.
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2003
- Posts
- 88,655
- Reaction score
- 61,403
are you just willfully ignoring that I'm repeatedly saying it's a throwback to what Popcorn movies were and should be?
just because Popcorn movies have for the most part become brain-dead, doesn't mean that when one actually gets the formula right, it doesn't fit the genre.
Last edited:
Not at all but that is like saying man...the game just isn't what is used to be for modern day sports. It doesn't change the fact that popcorn flicks has a new modern day connotation to it.
No but I think TDK was part of a perfect storm that had much to do with HL death. If that same movie came out today, HL doesn't win the oscar IMO nor does that genre of movie get the respect it deserves. Not that I think HL or the movie is any less deserving in my eyes.
I think at the very least the Directing is worthy of an Oscar nod and if I really thought the academy had turned the corner the screen play should be nominated as well. The problem is nobody every compares a dramatic screen play to a film like this. IMO because nobody knows how to compare the two because it's like comparing apples to oranges and they are good for so many different reasons.
The movie probably has zero chance but not because of merit. It has zero chance because the Academy is never going to recognize films like this unless another perfect storm happens.
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2003
- Posts
- 88,655
- Reaction score
- 61,403
agree to disagree. just don't go posting ******** about people saying the writing was at the same level as Transformers because that's just stupid and no one's even coming close to saying it.
I think you're out of your mind here. His performance was legendary, death or no death and people were talking about how incredible it was going to be BEFORE he died. It was just the rare moment of something living up to the hype. Other people have died before and it hasn't done jack squat for the movie. His joker is looked upon as one of the greatest villains of all time... a role that goes to Oscar winners... A LOT (Anton Chigur/Hannibal Lecter). His performance topped both of those in mine and a lot of other people's opinions. It's not like anyone was raving about his work in "The Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus"... which was actually his last movie. That movie bombed and he sucked in it... thus no one cared.
I just don't see how it's worthy of a directing nod... and it's not HUGE action movies have never gotten them before in that category. Cameron, Spielberg, Peter Jackson all got 'em for their various films, but those guys made game-changing movies. Epics unlike anything the world has ever seen before with Avatar, Jaws/Raiders/LOTR... this was just a really good comic book movie, but I just didn't see this as a game-changer, elevating the genre so much higher than we've ever seen before. I'll be surprised if Whedon's name is even mentioned as a possible best director nominee and I'll be flat out shocked if he's nominated.
Doesn't mean he didn't do a great job, but it just wasn't at that super upper level for me that the above were.
It's posting ******** or a reach if your definition of Popcorn flick is "no substance" which is directly related to writing? What are you talking about? If that is how someone views it, that is hardly a reach. Chris took it to mean "corny" which again would speak to the quality of writing. Stout took it as "crappy".
There is just a simple difference of opinion on the definition which is OK. You see it a certain way and now have clearly defined what it means to you. That is fair enough but it appears that most people relate Popcorn to sub par writing which I thought was universal and what I was responding to in general from that point of view.
Notice how I didn't respond to you directly and just remember reading in some post above Transformers and this movie in the same breath while calling it a popcorn flick. It was not clear that you didn't relate writing to your definition of Popcorn flick till you responded to my posts.
From the generally accepted modern day definition of popcorn flick.....calling it a popcorn flick is ********....but whatever. Your definition is different.....fair enough.
I don't disagree with any of that but historically genre films, sci-fi and hero films get no respect with the academy. Like I said, I am not saying it wasn't deserved. I was all over this forum saying HL deserved it before he was even nominated. I bet it will be another 20 or 30 years before another perfect storm of events leads to respect in the categories I mentioned above. I guess we will never know but IMO the Academy would have unjustly overlooked HL because of the type of film it was. The Academy has a reputation for being conservative for a reason and there has always been rumors that HL's death and the Academy's desperation to appeal to a younger crowd played a factor in not only his nomination but his win. Regardless his performance was epic and he deserved it IMO.
Again...fair enough. IMO nobody has succeeded with a comic book movie of this magnitude before this film. In fact, many people said it couldn't be done and were expecting another loud movie with little substance. He has set the bar high for an ensemble hero film. The fact that every ensemble hero film from here on out will be compared to this film is game changing IMO. Just like every "dark" hero movie from here on out will be compared to TDK....and deservedly so.
Last edited:
To me, a "popcorn flick" is just a movie--just entertainment; whereas a more "serious" film is designed to put forth more of a substantive piece of art. A popcorn flick won't make you think much, but that doesn't mean it isn't good or well-done.
I tend to side with Cheese on this one.
I also think people are overrating this movie, and with time those attitudes will be tempered. Don't get me wrong--I loved it. But I don't think it's the game-changer that people are claiming. The only game it changes is the Hulk's--if they bombed that character he could have been done until another generation of filmmakers came along.
I tend to side with Cheese on this one.
I also think people are overrating this movie, and with time those attitudes will be tempered. Don't get me wrong--I loved it. But I don't think it's the game-changer that people are claiming. The only game it changes is the Hulk's--if they bombed that character he could have been done until another generation of filmmakers came along.
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2003
- Posts
- 88,655
- Reaction score
- 61,403
totally agree with this.
Cardinals.Ken
That's Mr. Riff-Raff to you!
This thread has become a popcorn-movie...
Pretty good list Chap!
PortlandCardFan
Registered User
you mean popcorn-flick. A movie has more substance but a flick is something you see for entertainment...This thread has become a popcorn-movie...
I like that list a lot as well.
Mine is probably this:
Avengers
Dark Knight
The Crow
300
X Men First Class
V for Vendetta
Stout
Hold onto the ball, Murray!
It is absolutely a game changer. What other super hero ensemble movie have we seen like this, of this quality? I can't think of any. I don't mean something like Batman with the villain, Batman, and another entrant like Robin or Batgirl. I mean a true ensemble with more than a few major characters. The Avengers just blew the genre wide open.
X2 and first class. Avengers is the best of them, but it's not that much better than the rest IMO.
