Mac on KDUS...

[TRW]

anyone ever see the movie about the sham of a miracle worker, think it's name was "Rainmaker" starring Burt Lancaster? Snake Oil Salesman is what Mac sounds like. Blah, blah, blah...

I realize that a certain amount of "spin" is necessary and has to be done but this is ridiculous. There is a proverb that says "the more the words, the less the meaning". I think that applies to Mac.

Talk is cheap...

 

[Capital Card]

Here is an outside thought that no one seems to be considering...

Perhaps the Cards are happy with their draft.

They have acknowledged that McDougle was their guy, and they even admitted they tried to trade back up to get him. Other than that, I think the rest of the picks seem to make a lot of sense based on what they said before the draft.

Again, a common theme with all the picks is, "high-motor" and "high-character". Not much different than the last few drafts.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Exactly Cap.

And in reading both Mac and Graves post draft comments, both seemed to be on the same page, and indeed, generally quite happy with it. Some say they are just putting a "spin" on things.
I say, those people are just saying that because what the Cards did is not what THEY thought the team should have...pure an simple.

They seemed, for the most part, (other than say McDougle) to have got pretty much what they intended.

Now whether any kibitzers outside of the organization agree with those choices...well, that's another matter. And time and history have shown that no matter what they do, some are going to disagree with it.

 

[conraddobler]

I would say they are happy and were just dissapointed that the Eagles came up and grabbed McDougal but hey it happens.

There was such a run on DL that it was almost amazing they got one at all.

I would grade it about a C+ draft but all in all it is no where near the F some were screaming about on the first day.

So far I like this team it has gotten rid all the negative attitude type players.

Players who just stand back and shake their heads and say well it's just the Cardinals this and that blah blah blah.

Bottom line just play some damn football and shut up it can only help the end result.

 

[AZCB34]

Sure they had some disappointments draft days but very few teams go through the draft without disappointments. Overall, I think they walk away feeling great about their draft, all things considered. I am not as high as they probably are but time to analyze and cool down from what appeared to me to be utter imcompetence has given me the ability to not be as harsh as I was early on. Emotion ruled for many of us when the picks were made.

All in all the Cards front office (Graves) walks away thrilled with their draft. Let's hope their picks do play to their draft position becaus eif they do, things will be good.

Pace, in particular, will be under the microscope since he is most widely viewed as a reach at #18. He will be this years lightning rod...one way or the other. I sincerely hope he plays well and proves that the Cards front office did their homework and knew what they were doing since that would ease the pressure on them as well.

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

Originally posted by Capital Card
Again, a common theme with all the picks is, "high-motor" and "high-character". Not much different than the last few drafts.

Ok, this may be off-topic but...

I'm tired of hearing "High-Motor" and "High-Character"!

How about hearing phrases like "Talent" or "Skill" or "Ability"!

This is not a personal attack on you Cap, I just needed your quote to set the tone.

I'll get off the soap-box now...

 

[Tangodnzr]

I think another point that should be mentioned here is that the high motor, high character, tags also generally mean you have players that not only give maximum effort on the field but are good team players, have a good work and preparation ethic, and are "coachable".

Once you have the overwhelming majority of those type players on a team, you can then even bring in a new player that may have a marginal work ethic, but will get motivated by the others around him. Very few will buck the system if all the other players are working their asses off and they are the only laggard.

As opposed to say, the days when King Simian, would strut around training camp, defy rules and work his own agenda ala Charles Barkley. That has a trickle down and contageous effect on some other players, if they are not all united hard workers, and team players.

 

[Tangodnzr]

PS....I still feel that some of Boston's attitude problems were an outgrowth of those days...and the trickle down effect I mentioned.

Swann --> Rice --> Wadsworth --> Boston/TJ

Remember early on, Wadsworth/Rice seemed to influence Boston a lot.

I'm so glad those days are ending, regardless of the individual "talent" involved.

 

[JeffGollin]

I'm tired of hearing "High-Motor" and "High-Character"! How about hearing phrases like "Talent" or "Skill" or "Ability"!
Funny. I was up half the night popping the Maalox and thinking about that.

Obviously, no one wants to go out of their way to stock their team with criminals, deadbeats and other high maintenance types.

But have the Cards raised the bar too high? And after the dust has settled, don't we have our share of problem-children (i.e. Boston, Pittman etc.) anyway?

My fear is that the Cards may be sending out a signal to other players throughout the league that unless a player conforms to a "Cardinal personality" (i.e. church goer, family man, goody 2 shoes) he won't be welcomed here.

Not that I have a problem with churchgoing straight-arrow family men; but I'd hope that the team accepts and welcomes diversity - so that there's more than one musical sound coming out of the boomboxes and there are a few funsters and hell-raisers mixed in with the straight arrows.

I'm just guessing here. (It's a concern/not necessarily a fact) but, anyway, that's what I was thinking about last night.

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
I'm tired of hearing "High-Motor" and "High-Character"! How about hearing phrases like "Talent" or "Skill" or "Ability"!
Funny. I was up half the night popping the Maalox and thinking about that.

Obviously, no one wants to go out of their way to stock their team with criminals, deadbeats and other high maintenance types.

But have the Cards raised the bar too high? And after the dust has settled, don't we have our share of problem-children (i.e. Boston, Pittman etc.) anyway?

My fear is that the Cards may be sending out a signal to other players throughout the league that unless a player conforms to a "Cardinal personality" (i.e. church goer, family man, goody 2 shoes) he won't be welcomed here.

Not that I have a problem with churchgoing straight-arrow family men; but I'd hope that the team accepts and welcomes diversity - so that there's more than one musical sound coming out of the boomboxes and there are a few funsters and hell-raisers mixed in with the straight arrows.

I'm just guessing here. (It's a concern/not necessarily a fact) but, anyway, that's what I was thinking about last night.

I believe that a player (and a person in general) can be nasty at what they do, and still comform to the "Cardinal Personality" that you mention. Look at Kyle Turley. Off the field, his a devoted family man, father, and member of his church (LDS no less). But put him on the field, and he'll chop block you, and tear you're helmet off with you're head in it! And he plays at an elite level as well!

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
PS....I still feel that some of Boston's attitude problems were an outgrowth of those days...and the trickle down effect I mentioned.

Swann --> Rice --> Wadsworth --> Boston/TJ

Remember early on, Wadsworth/Rice seemed to influence Boston a lot.

I'm so glad those days are ending, regardless of the individual "talent" involved.

Swann influenced Rice? Swann and RIce didn't even like each other. Remember when Swan went public complaining that Rice kept missing camp when Swann was there after god knows how many knee injuries sweating it out? Swann accused Rice more than once of not being able to play in pain.

A lot of the "Erica" folks used that against Swann later on when he was being accused of not being able to play in pain himself.

I don't put a whole lot of stock in chemistry I think it's something that in most cases is determined after the fact when things don't work out. I just can't remember a team ever going into the season saying they weren't sure they had enough team chemistry.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Thanks Russ, I had forgotten about Swann's comments.

What I was referring more to was, as in the case of Barkley. He was allowed to get away with **** and show up when and where he wanted, just because he was Sir Charles. Some on the team didn't like it. (can you say KJ, especially?), but it also sends a message to the rest of the players.
Hey, you can cop any kind of attitude you want here, and get away with it.

It's a fact of life. I've run across it many times in the business world. Hell, I even usually openly acknowledged it to many former employees and staff: Yes if you produce, you may get some breaks, and the rules may be bent for you a little. ....
But that's a fine line.

Simian demonstrated that, at that point, Cards mgmt DID let him get away with most of his BS. And just like KJ with Barkley, it ultimately can cause pronounced dissension and problems.

It's like a child that see's another misbehave and allowed to get away with it....So what do they often ultimately do...try the same thing........

Why was Jamir so pissed when he left?
....because he thought Jake was getting unwarranted special treatment.

So you don't have to "like" someone to learn from them.

And that's Why being a good managers/leader is a separate skill/ talent.....not every one is able to walk that managerial fine line successfully.

People will accept seeing some special treatment of others, if in their own mind they can see its justified, and that they could receive the same if they do the same.

But just allowing Ego maniacs and Aholes to "rule the roost" doesn't work either.

That's why I so many times laugh at what I call some of the immature posts I see. People ragging on Cards management when they really have no clue them selves as to what it really takes to successfully manage ANYONE, let alone multimillion dollar earning ego maniacs.

 

[Russ Smith]

Got it Tango, I see your point.

Careful the jake crowd will get mad at you for suggesting his contract caused any problems on the team.

It was just coincidence that immediately after signing Jake we lost Miller, Lomas and Centers over money and had a protracted holdout from Shelton(signing bonus) and had to give Boston 4 years instead of 5 which bit us in the butt this offseason. None of that had anything to do with Jake's bonus (-:

 

[AZ1766]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
Thanks Russ, I had forgotten about Swann's comments.

What I was referring more to was, as in the case of Barkley. He was allowed to get away with **** and show up when and where he wanted, just because he was Sir Charles. Some on the team didn't like it. (can you say KJ, especially?), but it also sends a message to the rest of the players.
Hey, you can cop any kind of attitude you want here, and get away with it.

It's a fact of life. I've run across it many times in the business world. Hell, I even usually openly acknowledged it to many former employees and staff: Yes if you produce, you may get some breaks, and the rules may be bent for you a little. ....
But that's a fine line.

Simian demonstrated that, at that point, Cards mgmt DID let him get away with most of his BS. And just like KJ with Barkley, it ultimately can cause pronounced dissension and problems.

It's like a child that see's another misbehave and allowed to get away with it....So what do they often ultimately do...try the same thing........

Why was Jamir so pissed when he left?
....because he thought Jake was getting unwarranted special treatment.

So you don't have to "like" someone to learn from them.

And that's Why being a good managers/leader is a separate skill/ talent.....not every one is able to walk that managerial fine line successfully.

People will accept seeing some special treatment of others, if in their own mind they can see its justified, and that they could receive the same if they do the same.

But just allowing Ego maniacs and Aholes to "rule the roost" doesn't work either.

That's why I so many times laugh at what I call some of the immature posts I see. People ragging on Cards management when they really have no clue them selves as to what it really takes to successfully manage ANYONE, let alone multimillion dollar earning ego maniacs.

jees.... you should try managing soldiers sometime!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kerouac9]

I don't know anything about Johnson, except that I don't expect him to really help the team at all this season.

I do know that my Draft Guide says that Pace has "motivation issues", "isn't effective on the field for more than five or six plays at a time", and "has a lot to learn about his position." I know that the final statement applies to most Cards players, I'm a little concerned about those first two, though.

How come no one's said anything about this? It was in the Sporting News draft guide.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by kerouac9
I don't know anything about Johnson, except that I don't expect him to really help the team at all this season.

They say it's physically impossible for something to suck and blow at the same time. Now I'm not so sure. I think this sentence does both quite well.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by kerouac9
I don't know anything about Johnson, except that I don't expect him to really help the team at all this season.

I do know that my Draft Guide says that Pace has "motivation issues", "isn't effective on the field for more than five or six plays at a time", and "has a lot to learn about his position." I know that the final statement applies to most Cards players, I'm a little concerned about those first two, though.

How come no one's said anything about this? It was in the Sporting News draft guide.

I read the stamina question on Pace too, but let's stop and look at that what's an average NFL drive anyways? I would guess that he's not the only DE in the NFL coming out after 5-6 plays to stay effective, remember he was on a weak team he probably got doubled a lot.

Maybe we rotate Pace and DJ as RDE and improve the team that way?

I agree the pick puzzled me but I've never seen Pace play and in all likelihood a lot of the folks who rated him so low(TSN, PFW) haven't seen him that much either.

 

[hef]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
Thanks Russ, I had forgotten about Swann's comments.

What I was referring more to was, as in the case of Barkley. He was allowed to get away with **** and show up when and where he wanted, just because he was Sir Charles. Some on the team didn't like it. (can you say KJ, especially?), but it also sends a message to the rest of the players.
Hey, you can cop any kind of attitude you want here, and get away with it.

It's a fact of life. I've run across it many times in the business world. Hell, I even usually openly acknowledged it to many former employees and staff: Yes if you produce, you may get some breaks, and the rules may be bent for you a little. ....
But that's a fine line.

Simian demonstrated that, at that point, Cards mgmt DID let him get away with most of his BS. And just like KJ with Barkley, it ultimately can cause pronounced dissension and problems.

It's like a child that see's another misbehave and allowed to get away with it....So what do they often ultimately do...try the same thing........

Why was Jamir so pissed when he left?
....because he thought Jake was getting unwarranted special treatment.

So you don't have to "like" someone to learn from them.

And that's Why being a good managers/leader is a separate skill/ talent.....not every one is able to walk that managerial fine line successfully.

People will accept seeing some special treatment of others, if in their own mind they can see its justified, and that they could receive the same if they do the same.

But just allowing Ego maniacs and Aholes to "rule the roost" doesn't work either.

That's why I so many times laugh at what I call some of the immature posts I see. People ragging on Cards management when they really have no clue them selves as to what it really takes to successfully manage ANYONE, let alone multimillion dollar earning ego maniacs.

like jimmy johnson said about his championship teams is that he always had two sets of rules,one set of rules for the guys that produced and then one set for the rest of the team and this usualy works pretty well if aproached properly, ie i work in sales and the people who produce get cut alot of slack untill they bite the hand that feeds them ie boston/tj.at that point it's time to make an example out of someone to show the team that if you produce and carry yourself as a proffesional you will be rewarded but if you act like an idiot you will be treated like one.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Exactly hef, Exactly.

As to the issue of Pace:

Here's part of Marmie's comments about him, after the draft:

Defensive Coordinator Larry Marmie on Draft after Round 7

“Some players lose a little bit of the sense of the contact part of the game. Everybody says on air, off the edge and all that stuff, but a lot of times what people are saying about those guys is that they don’t like to get down there where all the stuff is going on. Pace lined up about 75-80% of this past year, and I think his junior year as well, on the offensive tackle where he had to strike somebody. When you get out air sometimes, you don’t have to take those guys on everybody. I am not sure that it is going to make him a better player the fact that he has had to be down there where a lot of the physical work is going on. A guy that was on my staff on Arizona State, Mel Folkes, was coaching as Wake Forest when they were recruiting Calvin and he coached with him for two years. Mel felt like this was a guy that had a lot of upside athletically and he was very high on what he thought he could do. We liked him on tape. We liked him as a pass rusher. He was a quarterback in high school. We are going to plug him in and try to get after the quarterback.”


That doesn't sound too much like a guy with a motivation problem to me. Evidently the Cards did spend some time scouting him out. I would trust Marmie's comments over any writer/sportscaster's, etc.

 

[conraddobler]

Pace I believe played in the 3-4 which means he had to literally bust a@@ every play....

It's not an issue it's apples and oranges and whoever wrote that writeup was being naive to say the least.

You have to be almost a complete animal to survive as a rusher in the 3-4 everytime you don't bring extra rushers it's a huge undertaking to even pressure the QB and make the defense work you are almost always doubled.

I think they had at least one other DT taken from that defense partly because it is acknowledged that stats wise you will never produce at the same level as guys in a 4-3 cause you are giving yourself up for the most part for the team. LB's tend to get more sacks than in a 4-3 and make more takles also.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

okay, back from coachella, great time. ridiculous even.

now for the draft . . .

VOMIT on the draft. i like johnson and boldin, but johnson was not a "value" pick. Pace was a complete brain fart.

VOMIT on Rod Graves. IMO he's sucked the entire time he's been "in charge" (can I get an amen from the great howdy doody?).

VOMIT on the entire Cardinals organization for allowing this sham of an offseason to occur and for their continued attempts to spin everything into "wait-and-see-ville."

VOMITVOMITVOMITVOMITPUKE.

 

[RedStorm]

Originally posted by PHXSPORTS4LIFE
okay, back from coachella, great time. ridiculous even.

now for the draft . . .

VOMIT on the draft. i like johnson and boldin, but johnson was not a "value" pick. Pace was a complete brain fart.

VOMIT on Rod Graves. IMO he's sucked the entire time he's been "in charge" (can I get an amen from the great howdy doody?).

VOMIT on the entire Cardinals organization for allowing this sham of an offseason to occur and for their continued attempts to spin everything into "wait-and-see-ville."

VOMITVOMITVOMITVOMITPUKE.

Wow!!! That's quite a mess...

 

[Tangodnzr]

Yes...a really intelligent post.

Anymore, garbage like this is all I normally expect to see from this spoiled boy.