Lincoln

Stout

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There's been so many Gee... It's an interesting discussion for sure. However, the fate and direction of the country we know and love today truly was hanging in the balance during Lincoln's term.

James Madison--War of 1812. We may look back at it as a fait accompli victory that secured our sovereignty indefinitely, but we were huge underdogs in that war. Hell, they burned the White House. GW doesn't count, because he was just a general during the Revolution.
 

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Was there any other Presidential term that had so much hanging in the balance? Lincoln's term in office is generally considered to be the single most trying, most consequential and most demanding in the history of our country. I'm not sure anyone can create any sort of depiction of his time in office in an "over the top" manner...

Rule of thumb: If you don't show me the humanity of the hero, I really won't care about the hero. If it's not difficult for the hero, if he has no moral crisis, no internal struggle, it's hardly a sacrifice for him to be heroic.

Am I going to see an elementary school play with better actors and sets, or am I can going to see the story of a great American president who fumbled with some horrible ideas before settling into the man we remember? This is a president who occasionally pissed on the Constitution (Maryland?) and early on pushed for freed slaves to be relocated to Central America before figuring out they could carry a gun and die for the cause of the Union.
 

Stout

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It was very good. It's slow-paced (of necessity), and isn't a movie I would want to watch over and over, but man, was it solid! DD Lewis probably just wrapped up best actor. It really touched home for me, as a social worker, too. Fantastic movie, and not at all what I expected.
 

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Rule of thumb: If you don't show me the humanity of the hero, I really won't care about the hero. If it's not difficult for the hero, if he has no moral crisis, no internal struggle, it's hardly a sacrifice for him to be heroic.

Am I going to see an elementary school play with better actors and sets, or am I can going to see the story of a great American president who fumbled with some horrible ideas before settling into the man we remember? This is a president who occasionally pissed on the Constitution (Maryland?) and early on pushed for freed slaves to be relocated to Central America before figuring out they could carry a gun and die for the cause of the Union.


Sounds like Miller believes Spielberg didn't even come close to going over the top on Linclon as a person. Sounds like the movie is more about the 13th Amendment than it is about Lincoln himself:

4 Lessons From Lincoln – What We Can Learn From America’s Greatest President


There was no renewed interest in Abraham Lincoln at the release of Steven Speilberg’s new film because an interest in Abraham Lincoln has never waned. Lincoln is considered by many to be America’s greatest leader. Daniel Day Lewis plays the President so wonderfully in the new film that he certainly deserves an Oscar, as does the movie itself.

Missing from the film, however, is Lincoln’s darker side, the sad Lincoln, the tortured Lincoln his own letters reveal. But this wasn’t so much the focus of Spielberg’s film.
The director wanted to tell the story of the passing of the thirteenth amendment, and he does so quite well. In fact, I would argue this is less a film about Lincoln and more a film about the passing of that specific document and idea. While Lincoln hardly leaves the screen, he’s painted thinly in contrast to the debate surrounding slavery.

http://storylineblog.com/2012/11/20/4-lessons-from-lincoln/
 

Gaddabout

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The movie was based on this book:

http://books.google.com/books/about/Team_of_Rivals.html?id=ONhhui9SRsMC

It's generally accepted as a great read, but an accurate-but-incomplete picture of the day. I'm probably going to wait until it comes out on DVD.

This movie is a lot like any Civil War discussion: What you focus on likely reveals your political bent. The Civil War itself was more about the Union vs. states rights. With 20th Century hindsight, we can see it needed to be about ending slavery in our country, but it really wasn't. We just usually choose to view it through a lens that better suits our patriotic or exceptionalistic paradigm of U.S. history, so Lincoln gets turned into a demi-god. Great, great man and leader, but he was far from perfect. He was just so much better than the men around him at the time he was called into leadership.

Sounds like Miller believes Spielberg didn't even come close to going over the top on Linclon as a person. Sounds like the movie is more about the 13th Amendment than it is about Lincoln himself:

4 Lessons From Lincoln – What We Can Learn From America’s Greatest President


There was no renewed interest in Abraham Lincoln at the release of Steven Speilberg’s new film because an interest in Abraham Lincoln has never waned. Lincoln is considered by many to be America’s greatest leader. Daniel Day Lewis plays the President so wonderfully in the new film that he certainly deserves an Oscar, as does the movie itself.

Missing from the film, however, is Lincoln’s darker side, the sad Lincoln, the tortured Lincoln his own letters reveal. But this wasn’t so much the focus of Spielberg’s film.
The director wanted to tell the story of the passing of the thirteenth amendment, and he does so quite well. In fact, I would argue this is less a film about Lincoln and more a film about the passing of that specific document and idea. While Lincoln hardly leaves the screen, he’s painted thinly in contrast to the debate surrounding slavery.

http://storylineblog.com/2012/11/20/4-lessons-from-lincoln/
 

82CardsGrad

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The movie was based on this book:

http://books.google.com/books/about/Team_of_Rivals.html?id=ONhhui9SRsMC

It's generally accepted as a great read, but an accurate-but-incomplete picture of the day. I'm probably going to wait until it comes out on DVD.

This movie is a lot like any Civil War discussion: What you focus on likely reveals your political bent. The Civil War itself was more about the Union vs. states rights. With 20th Century hindsight, we can see it needed to be about ending slavery in our country, but it really wasn't. We just usually choose to view it through a lens that better suits our patriotic or exceptionalistic paradigm of U.S. history, so Lincoln gets turned into a demi-god. Great, great man and leader, but he was far from perfect. He was just so much better than the men around him at the time he was called into leadership.

Ironic given the environment of today, which includes 20 or so states petitioning to secede.... :D
 

Gaddabout

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Yes, it was about slavery.

Ending slavery was a stated GOP platform in the day, but Lincoln didn't consider himself an abolitionist. That was still a dirty word. Slavery in a legal sense only ended because the Union won and the Republicans were able to have their way with the spoils of victory.

The Civil War, like most American wars, was over taxation. The agricultural South didn't like paying taxes on their cotton crops, or at least the amount they were made to pay. Take away that issue and we don't even have a Civil War.

Saying the Civil War was about slavery is like saying the Revolutionary War was about personal freedoms.
 

Mulli

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Ending slavery was a stated GOP platform in the day, but Lincoln didn't consider himself an abolitionist. That was still a dirty word. Slavery in a legal sense only ended because the Union won and the Republicans were able to have their way with the spoils of victory.

The Civil War, like most American wars, was over taxation. The agricultural South didn't like paying taxes on their cotton crops, or at least the amount they were made to pay. Take away that issue and we don't even have a Civil War.

Saying the Civil War was about slavery is like saying the Revolutionary War was about personal freedoms.

Agree to disagree. Losing slave labor far worse to South than paying taxes.
 

NJCardFan

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JFK's was pretty trying as well.. Not trying to find one more trying.. Was just thinking who had a difficult one too..

Lincoln's time in office makes Kennedy's look like a Sunday school picnic. While Kennedy did have the Bay of Pigs fiasco and the Cuban missile crisis(which lasted all of 13 days), he didn't have a civil war where hundreds of thousands were fighting and dying to preserve the union all the while trying to get an amendment passed like no other(which is what the movie is focused on). Lincoln also lost a son while in office. The toughest thing Kennedy had to worry about was which girl he was going to bang on any given night. I'm not saying that to be a wise guy either.
 

Stout

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Sounds like Miller believes Spielberg didn't even come close to going over the top on Linclon as a person. Sounds like the movie is more about the 13th Amendment than it is about Lincoln himself:

4 Lessons From Lincoln – What We Can Learn From America’s Greatest President


There was no renewed interest in Abraham Lincoln at the release of Steven Speilberg’s new film because an interest in Abraham Lincoln has never waned. Lincoln is considered by many to be America’s greatest leader. Daniel Day Lewis plays the President so wonderfully in the new film that he certainly deserves an Oscar, as does the movie itself.

Missing from the film, however, is Lincoln’s darker side, the sad Lincoln, the tortured Lincoln his own letters reveal. But this wasn’t so much the focus of Spielberg’s film.
The director wanted to tell the story of the passing of the thirteenth amendment, and he does so quite well. In fact, I would argue this is less a film about Lincoln and more a film about the passing of that specific document and idea. While Lincoln hardly leaves the screen, he’s painted thinly in contrast to the debate surrounding slavery.

http://storylineblog.com/2012/11/20/4-lessons-from-lincoln/

I'll disagree slightly with their take on this. We definitely saw the darker side of Lincoln. Not anywhere near the full extent of it, but it was shown.

Agree to disagree. Losing slave labor far worse to South than paying taxes.

Of course it was, but that isn't the point. The war didn't start over slavery. Period. The Emancipation Proclamation didn't kick the war off; it happened at the opening of 1863, almost two years after the war began.
 

TheHopToad

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Lincoln's time in office makes Kennedy's look like a Sunday school picnic. While Kennedy did have the Bay of Pigs fiasco and the Cuban missile crisis(which lasted all of 13 days), he didn't have a civil war where hundreds of thousands were fighting and dying to preserve the union all the while trying to get an amendment passed like no other(which is what the movie is focused on). Lincoln also lost a son while in office. The toughest thing Kennedy had to worry about was which girl he was going to bang on any given night. I'm not saying that to be a wise guy either.
Not trying to dilute your point, but just stating for the record, JFK also lost a son while in office.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Bouvier_Kennedy
 

Mulli

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I'll disagree slightly with their take on this. We definitely saw the darker side of Lincoln. Not anywhere near the full extent of it, but it was shown.



Of course it was, but that isn't the point. The war didn't start over slavery. Period. The Emancipation Proclamation didn't kick the war off; it happened at the opening of 1863, almost two years after the war began.
Yes, it was. Who thought the Emancipation Proclamation kicked the war off?
It makes it so warm and toasty sounding to say the South was fighting for States rights or taxation. Nope, they wanted the right to keep slaves and to get them back if they fled to the North and the North wouldn't return them.

Check out these Declarations of Cause from seceding states. Hard to miss the thread of slavery thoughout.

http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html
 

NJCardFan

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Not trying to dilute your point, but just stating for the record, JFK also lost a son while in office.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Bouvier_Kennedy

Not to trivialize but Patrick died at birth while Willie died at 11 years old. Tragic as both are, I would believe that this hurt Lincoln far worse than it did Jack(although the effect on both Mary and Jackie would be worse than both men). That said, the similarities of both men are astounding.
 

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Fantastic movie. Excellent. This movie should clean up come Oscar time.

I've always been a fan of Sally Field. She, like Tom Hanks, went from goofball comedy/TV to being a serious, award winning actor. She stole the scenes she shared with Lewis and even though she was 11 years his senior, they really complimented each other, however, there was one scene where I thought she was overly dramatic and a bit over the top. That said, both should be nominated and should win easily. Strathairn should get some consideration as well but more than likely Jones will get the supporting role nomination but IMO, Spader was brilliant enough to garner a look for the award. All in all, every actor played their part well no matter how small. This, again, pays to the Speilberg's brilliance.
 

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I've always been a fan of Sally Field. She, like Tom Hanks, went from goofball comedy/TV to being a serious, award winning actor. She stole the scenes she shared with Lewis and even though she was 11 years his senior, they really complimented each other, however, there was one scene where I thought she was overly dramatic and a bit over the top. That said, both should be nominated and should win easily. Strathairn should get some consideration as well but more than likely Jones will get the supporting role nomination but IMO, Spader was brilliant enough to garner a look for the award. All in all, every actor played their part well no matter how small. This, again, pays to the Speilberg's brilliance.

? Pass me the crack pipe :)
 

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I can be a pretty tough critic and nitpick even the best of movies, but this movie was a masterpiece IMO. Inspiring even.

I knew Daniel Day Lewis would knock the role out of the park, but I didn't think Spielberg still had this level of greatness in him. For a movie that was all about the political machinations of one vote, I thought it moved at a breakneck pace, never slow for a second with a cast of characters surrounding Lincoln who were as interesting as he was.

easily, the best and my favorite movie of the year so far.

this year's crop of Holiday movies/Oscar Contenders could be an all-timer. Argo and Lincoln were both great and I've still yet to see Silver Linings Playbook, Les Miserables, Django Unchained, Life of Pi, Killing Me Slowly, Zero Dark Thirty... even This is 40 is supposed to be really good. And all that with a really solid Bond movie and The Hobbit yet to come? makes me one happy moviegoer.
 

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I can be a pretty tough critic and nitpick even the best of movies, but this movie was a masterpiece IMO. Inspiring even.

I knew Daniel Day Lewis would knock the role out of the park, but I didn't think Spielberg still had this level of greatness in him. For a movie that was all about the political machinations of one vote, I thought it moved at a breakneck pace, never slow for a second with a cast of characters surrounding Lincoln who were as interesting as he was.

easily, the best and my favorite movie of the year so far.

this year's crop of Holiday movies/Oscar Contenders could be an all-timer. Argo and Lincoln were both great and I've still yet to see Silver Linings Playbook, Les Miserables, Django Unchained, Life of Pi, Killing Me Slowly, Zero Dark Thirty... even This is 40 is supposed to be really good. And all that with a really solid Bond movie and The Hobbit yet to come? makes me one happy moviegoer.

I take it you haven't seen Cloud Atlas then? Critics were lukewarm with it, but not sure why--maybe they were too bored, but Life of Pi looks A LOT more boring to me.

BTW, I LOVED Cloud Atlas. And Lincoln. And Argo. Wouldn't be upset if either of them won Best Pic.
 
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