How Did the Cards End Up Here?

Harry

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It started with drafting Murray. It’s hard to fault them too badly as almost every scout had him number one. So I know some will hate it, but this was not a horrible mistake.

It was quickly apparent that Murray was a great athlete, but not a polished QB. Also the Cards made dumb mistakes, like they didn’t need an Oline because Murray could just dodge the rush. He quickly became gun shy and likely never recovered. In a previous post I labeled it NFL PTSD. They also never tried tough love that might have turned him around when he was a rookie.

In 2021 the Cards started 9-1 before limping into the playoffs and losing ignominiously. Still the Cards began to fear Murray would get better and be hard to re-sign, so they signed him to a huge contract. In 2022 Murray rewarded the Cards with a 4-8 start before tearing his ACL and missing a year. During this period the Cards correctly decided Kingsbury’s regime was a failure and he was fired.

The Cards selected Gannon from their candidates. I wrote at the time I felt he had no choice but to endorse Murray. I don’t see Bidwill picking a guy who said $100 million+ was wasted. So I think Gannon felt he had no choice but to go with Murray. There just aren’t many of these HC jobs out there. The cap made trading or cutting Murray functionally impossible.

So I think they eventually decided to focus more on building the defense as Murray couldn’t be counted on to win enough games to make the Cards an annual playoff contender.

In the end Gannon was struck with a QB who really hasn’t improved since his ACL tear. I apologize if you’re bored with my review of Murray because you’ve heard much of it before, but here goes. It starts with the fact I firmly believe he thinks he is a much better QB than the record indicates he is. He could be the premier running QB in the league, but his durability makes that unrealistic. Instead I think he’s become contact averse. The scouts did warn about that. The truly sad part about this is it’s too easy to list these Murray problems. A seven year QB should be much harder to fault.

So where does Murray stand now. One of the continuing concerns is leadership. I watched the Eagles/Rams game last Sunday and even though the Eagles’ offense was struggling, Hurts was addressing the defensive line. My guess was he told them the offense would get it together and contribute. They did. The defense rose up, blocked a kick and scored a winning TD. That’s leadership. Murray too often is sullen and isolates himself. That’s not leadership. I know it’s not his standard personality, but that’s part of the problem. He’s fine when he’s on a roll, but when hard times come too often he seems to be aloof.

Murray also struggles to read defenses well and determine how to exploit them. Thursday night using an audible to switch to Carter on fourth and short was a terrible decision. I often wonder if he reads defenses at all. I know his pockets aren’t often good, but I can’t recall him moving a safety with his eyes. I rarely see him using progressions. He locks on his primary and flees the pocket if he’s not seeing him open, sometimes almost immediately. If he read defenses well he’d know that primary was the wrong target. Also breaking out this fast makes it very hard for Olinemen to know where to redirect rushers.

Murray doesn’t even seem to understand a pocket, seldom needing them in college. He rarely steps up to let his blockers push the rushers behind him. He doesn’t slide to the side to avoid a rusher or create a clear throwing lane. He doesn’t seem to understand about lofting a throw over a rusher instead he just throws on a straight line killing drives when the ball is knocked down. BTW one of the things that’s not insurmountable is his height. Several shorter QBs have succeeded. Certainly height is an asset that makes things easier, but with Murray’s athletic ability and agility, this issue could be handled.

Another concern is ball placement. Murray rarely throws a receiver open. He seldom even accurately leads a receiver, which means limited YAC. In fact I think he’s often afraid to give his receivers a chance to make a play even when single covered. People on the board complain receivers aren’t open, but most top QBs let their receivers try to make a play. He’s so afraid of making a mistake and giving up an interception, he’s become ultra conservative. Most of his interceptions come from overthrows. One of the reasons for many of these overthrows is Murray continues to throw off his back foot.

Another thing that’s become an issue is arm strength. Of course throwing off your back foot robs one of some of that. I can’t swear to it, but I think Murray used to be more accurate on deep throws and throwing on the run. In fact the latter was a strength I previously touted.

As to the concerns about Harrison, the issues are obvious and real. Changing QBs at this stage won’t magically fix him. However, I do think he’s far more fixable than Murray and Harrison is clearly worth the effort.

I could go on, but surely this is more than enough to know it’s time to move on. For a long time I’ve hung with the “give him more time” group. I’m just convinced this process is at a standstill. His contract will be tolerable for trade after this season. Yes, there will be teams that want him. He might even be reasonably successful in the right system with the right surrounding cast. He just won’t succeed here. I’ll post something more on this part later and about the coaching issues. They are real too. I don’t write this with glee. At 77 I think the odds are against my seeing the Cards in another Super Bowl. Playoffs would at least be nice. Thanks for reading this I know it’s a small book.
 

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Hard to argue with any of your points Harry. I too am 77 and my wish for the past several years was to see Cardinals in the playoffs. I had high hopes this was the year before the season started. But, to be honest, the Cards got outplayed by two of the league’s bottom feeders out of the gate. Hopes dashed. Again. Kyler shows absolutely no leadership on the field or on the sidelines. None. Yes, the team rallied from down 20-6 to tie the game at 20. I’d love to know who was at fault on the play where Harrison went up the field but Tyler threw behind him. If there is a communication issue, Tyler is the one who should address it. Immediately. Later in the game Harrison saved the team’s bacon with some special catches. Good for the young man. Hope better days are ahead.
 

Mr X

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All true. The offense line has been horrible this year and it’s showing all of these faults. An nfl QB needs to navigate this. He doesn’t show the poise of any QB’s in our division.

We will win enough to not give us a shot at drafting one next year. Hopefully there is a vet out there.
 

Metcalf Rules

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They could draft a qb, but the Cardinals seem to somehow do their best lately when they get a proven veteran like Palmer or Warner. Who are the free agent qb’s at the end of the season? How about a qb for qb trade like Goff for Stafford? Would there be any takers?
 

Cbus cardsfan

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Good points but Murray was not the clear #1 QB in that draft. He was for Kingsbury and Keim.

I remember being out with 3 head scouts, my BIL, a giants scout, and a guy from another team.

I was a huge Haskins guy in that draft. I asked them at dinner who they liked better, Murray or Haskins?
They all said Haskins.

Haskins obviously didn't work out and was drafted into a horrible situation. But, Murray, had he not been drafted by the Cards, might have a huge slide and be playing 2nd base for the A's right now.
 

PACardsFan

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It started with drafting Murray. It’s hard to fault them too badly as almost every scout had him number one. So I know some will hate it, but this was not a horrible mistake.

It was quickly apparent that Murray was a great athlete, but not a polished QB. Also the Cards made dumb mistakes, like they didn’t need an Oline because Murray could just dodge the rush. He quickly became gun shy and likely never recovered. In a previous post I labeled it NFL PTSD. They also never tried tough love that might have turned him around when he was a rookie.

In 2021 the Cards started 9-1 before limping into the playoffs and losing ignominiously. Still the Cards began to fear Murray would get better and be hard to re-sign, so they signed him to a huge contract. In 2022 Murray rewarded the Cards with a 4-8 start before tearing his ACL and missing a year. During this period the Cards correctly decided Kingsbury’s regime was a failure and he was fired.

The Cards selected Gannon from their candidates. I wrote at the time I felt he had no choice but to endorse Murray. I don’t see Bidwill picking a guy who said $100 million+ was wasted. So I think Gannon felt he had no choice but to go with Murray. There just aren’t many of these HC jobs out there. The cap made trading or cutting Murray functionally impossible.

So I think they eventually decided to focus more on building the defense as Murray couldn’t be counted on to win enough games to make the Cards an annual playoff contender.

In the end Gannon was struck with a QB who really hasn’t improved since his ACL tear. I apologize if you’re bored with my review of Murray because you’ve heard much of it before, but here goes. It starts with the fact I firmly believe he thinks he is a much better QB than the record indicates he is. He could be the premier running QB in the league, but his durability makes that unrealistic. Instead I think he’s become contact averse. The scouts did warn about that. The truly sad part about this is it’s too easy to list these Murray problems. A seven year QB should be much harder to fault.

So where does Murray stand now. One of the continuing concerns is leadership. I watched the Eagles/Rams game last Sunday and even though the Eagles’ offense was struggling, Hurts was addressing the defensive line. My guess was he told them the offense would get it together and contribute. They did. The defense rose up, blocked a kick and scored a winning TD. That’s leadership. Murray too often is sullen and isolates himself. That’s not leadership. I know it’s not his standard personality, but that’s part of the problem. He’s fine when he’s on a roll, but when hard times come too often he seems to be aloof.

Murray also struggles to read defenses well and determine how to exploit them. Thursday night using an audible to switch to Carter on fourth and short was a terrible decision. I often wonder if he reads defenses at all. I know his pockets aren’t often good, but I can’t recall him moving a safety with his eyes. I rarely see him using progressions. He locks on his primary and flees the pocket if he’s not seeing him open, sometimes almost immediately. If he read defenses well he’d know that primary was the wrong target. Also breaking out this fast makes it very hard for Olinemen to know where to redirect rushers.

Murray doesn’t even seem to understand a pocket, seldom needing them in college. He rarely steps up to let his blockers push the rushers behind him. He doesn’t slide to the side to avoid a rusher or create a clear throwing lane. He doesn’t seem to understand about lofting a throw over a rusher instead he just throws on a straight line killing drives when the ball is knocked down. BTW one of the things that’s not insurmountable is his height. Several shorter QBs have succeeded. Certainly height is an asset that makes things easier, but with Murray’s athletic ability and agility, this issue could be handled.

Another concern is ball placement. Murray rarely throws a receiver open. He seldom even accurately leads a receiver, which means limited YAC. In fact I think he’s often afraid to give his receivers a chance to make a play even when single covered. People on the board complain receivers aren’t open, but most top QBs let their receivers try to make a play. He’s so afraid of making a mistake and giving up an interception, he’s become ultra conservative. Most of his interceptions come from overthrows. One of the reasons for many of these overthrows is Murray continues to throw off his back foot.

Another thing that’s become an issue is arm strength. Of course throwing off your back foot robs one of some of that. I can’t swear to it, but I think Murray used to be more accurate on deep throws and throwing on the run. In fact the latter was a strength I previously touted.

As to the concerns about Harrison, the issues are obvious and real. Changing QBs at this stage won’t magically fix him. However, I do think he’s far more fixable than Murray and Harrison is clearly worth the effort.

I could go on, but surely this is more than enough to know it’s time to move on. For a long time I’ve hung with the “give him more time” group. I’m just convinced this process is at a standstill. His contract will be tolerable for trade after this season. Yes, there will be teams that want him. He might even be reasonably successful in the right system with the right surrounding cast. He just won’t succeed here. I’ll post something more on this part later and about the coaching issues. They are real too. I don’t write this with glee. At 77 I think the odds are against my seeing the Cards in another Super Bowl. Playoffs would at least be nice. Thanks for reading this I know it’s a small book.
Sorry, but I think it’s ridiculous to blame a QB, any QB, on what ails this offense right now. The OL has been putrid through 4 games. If you cannot run, you cannot win. What does it say about an offense when your QB leads the team in rushing the last 2 games. In the loss to the Niners, MHJ drops 2 touchdown passes & Demarcado drops a 3rd. Can that loss really be blamed on Murray? Hardly. And MHJ was responsible for BOTH picks last night. To Murray’s credit, he put that team on his back in the 4th quarter and gave them a chance to win. I hope that MHJ comes around, I really do. Because if he’s not what the Cardinals thought he was & this OL continues to suck, no mortal being could succeed at QB with what’s left in the arsenal. YES, we should be 4-0. But, we’re 2-2, not 0-4. This season is far from over. Yes, back to back brutal losses, but this season is far from over.
 

PACardsFan

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Good points but Murray was not the clear #1 QB in that draft. He was for Kingsbury and Keim.

I remember being out with 3 head scouts, my BIL, a giants scout, and a guy from another team.

I was a huge Haskins guy in that draft. I asked them at dinner who they liked better, Murray or Haskins?
They all said Haskins.

Haskins obviously didn't work out and was drafted into a horrible situation. But, Murray, had he not been drafted by the Cards, might have a huge slide and be playing 2nd base for the A's right now.
And Murray wasn’t drafted into a horrible situation?? Haskins was a mess dude.
 

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Well said harry.

I agree with everything above on Murray

I will also concur that MHJ has the potential for a very bright future and is fixable - but in this current offensive coordinator/QB system - he will also be doomed for failure.

The Murray experiment needs to be over
Agreed…and I agree with most of what harry said except Murray being number one coming out….that’s not what I remember ….people was stating his flaws….nobody else would have took him one….the pick should of been bosa
 

NWMike

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I have come around to Harry's way of thinking as well. Murray may thrive elsewhere but it seems pretty clear he is not the guy after 7 years in AZ. He's the guy that can play well enough at times to give you hope but will ultimately fail you again and again. This is the easy part of our schedule when traditionally he plays the best so I'm not looking forward to what Nov/Dec has in store. I do echo what PACardsfan said about the O-line. I really thought they would be a strength for this team going into the year (maybe not great but upper one third of the league) and they are a total liability. Time and again last night the Hawks were only rushing four and Murray was running for his life before he could even look downfield. It's egregious and has to get better if this team is going to get better.

Now the hard part. We have a very easy schedule this year which means despite this teams flaws we'll probably finish with 8-9 wins and be drafting somewhere in the mid-teens. Too far back to get one of the top prospects so we are looking at a second tier guy or maybe a first tier guy with some damage (maybe Mateer slides now that he is injured). In free agency Daniel Jones is probably the best of the bunch but if he continues leading Indy they will no doubt extend him. I don't think they would get any higher than a 3rd for Murray, especially if he swoons again in Nov/Dec, so I don't think they would have the ammunition to move up into the top 5. It just feels like we're looking at a dismal 2026 season in the hopes of getting someone better in 2027 and quite frankly that is depressing.
 

Mr X

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I would hate to lose draft capital to move up for a QB as I do think we have a good team that we can build upon with a solid draft. Hopefully we can get a vet or someone like Baker/Jones to revive.

If we trade Murray for a late 1st or couple of 2nds we might have some capital to move up. The Rams were smart last draft and they are ready to get a QB.

I just hope this organization has the balls to do it.
 

cardpa

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I am all for trading Murray after the season for whatever you can get for him. Any idea he can elevate his game should be over and done. He is who he is. Harry could be right that maybe he will flourish somewhere else, however I have my doubts because he lacks the mental toughness to be a top tier QB. The latest example was last night when they showed him after a turnover of a failed play, his demeanor was bad.
 

Cheesebeef

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I would hate to lose draft capital to move up for a QB as I do think we have a good team that we can build upon with a solid draft. Hopefully we can get a vet or someone like Baker/Jones to revive.

If we trade Murray for a late 1st or couple of 2nds we might have some capital to move up. The Rams were smart last draft and they are ready to get a QB.

I just hope this organization has the balls to do it.
No one is trading a late 1st or 2nd for Kyler Murray.
 

vince56

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I firmly believe Bidwill has Ossenfort on a strict budget and it’s the core issue. We’re still way under the cap and could have used WR and O-line help in free agency.
 

Goodyear Card

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The big problem is Murray is uncoachable. he is a coach killer. We have had two completely different coaching staffs, and both have run very conservative offenses. Nobody trusts Murray to throw a deep ball. He is too inaccurate. I hated KK when he was here. The lack of game planning and play calling was horrible. for the record I didn't believe he would ever get another NFL job. However, he went into Washington and had great success with a rookie QB. One of Murrays big faults is reading the defense presnap. If you watch some of Kurt Warners videos you will see all the things a QB needs to decide before the ball is snapped. The QB needs to know who is open before the ball is snapped. You cannot wait until a receiver is open and then throw the ball. DBs are too fast and will close the gap. You need to throw the ball before the receiver is open.

Is Murray the only problem on this team. Of course not. Harrison's performance has been disappointing. The drops are concerning. However, he is a second year player and is should be expected that he will make mistakes. Murray is in his seventh year. The OL is a major weakness. None of the younger players have shown any ability to a quality starter. We are left with a bunch of average journeymen players at best.

Unfortunately, Murrays next year salary is already guaranteed. we are stuck with him through next year and then we can move on.
 

PACardsFan

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I have come around to Harry's way of thinking as well. Murray may thrive elsewhere but it seems pretty clear he is not the guy after 7 years in AZ. He's the guy that can play well enough at times to give you hope but will ultimately fail you again and again. This is the easy part of our schedule when traditionally he plays the best so I'm not looking forward to what Nov/Dec has in store. I do echo what PACardsfan said about the O-line. I really thought they would be a strength for this team going into the year (maybe not great but upper one third of the league) and they are a total liability. Time and again last night the Hawks were only rushing four and Murray was running for his life before he could even look downfield. It's egregious and has to get better if this team is going to get better.

Now the hard part. We have a very easy schedule this year which means despite this teams flaws we'll probably finish with 8-9 wins and be drafting somewhere in the mid-teens. Too far back to get one of the top prospects so we are looking at a second tier guy or maybe a first tier guy with some damage (maybe Mateer slides now that he is injured). In free agency Daniel Jones is probably the best of the bunch but if he continues leading Indy they will no doubt extend him. I don't think they would get any higher than a 3rd for Murray, especially if he swoons again in Nov/Dec, so I don't think they would have the ammunition to move up into the top 5. It just feels like we're looking at a dismal 2026 season in the hopes of getting someone better in 2027 and quite frankly that is depressing.
When your OL performs like ours has & your WR1 isn’t a WR1 yet, there’s no way in hell that you point a finger of blame at your QB. We have zero chance of being remotely in that game without Kyler. Sure, we’re all frustrated, but it’s idiotic to blame Murray when we dropped 3 touchdowns last week & your WR1 was the reason why we had 2 picks last night.
 

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Good points but Murray was not the clear #1 QB in that draft. He was for Kingsbury and Keim.

I remember being out with 3 head scouts, my BIL, a giants scout, and a guy from another team.

I was a huge Haskins guy in that draft. I asked them at dinner who they liked better, Murray or Haskins?
They all said Haskins.

Haskins obviously didn't work out and was drafted into a horrible situation. But, Murray, had he not been drafted by the Cards, might have a huge slide and be playing 2nd base for the A's right now.
I dunno if he was the #1 QB (he probably was) but it wasn’t clear he was the #1 prospect in this draft because people here were divided between Kyler, Bosa, and Williams. I don’t remember there being much appetite for trading out.

Was Kyler failed? Probably. I think he and MHJ have been coddled by the organization to their detriment. But I also think that Kyler has realized he’s not going to be the best here and so he’s marking time for whatever is next.

I remember Arians saying he took the game plan to the QB room on Wednesday or Thursday and went through with Palmer the top 20-25 plays he liked and wanted to run. Kyler probably doesn’t have a context for that kind of conversation. It’d be interesting to know from someone like Conner or Hernandez how professional/standard the offensive installation is compared to what they’ve experienced elsewhere.
 

602 Native

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Another K1 post crying about drafting him.

Imagine using the actual K1 thread that is pinned at the top of the site.
 

FB94

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So where do we go from here. Offensively we need an upgrade at OC. IMO we will go heavy on offense next offseason. Interior OL addressed, and most certainly add true speed option at WR, while we have MH he isn’t a WR1 right now. Rest WRs are 3s or worse. With KMs contract he’s gonna be around one more year then all bets are off. A tall packet passer with a little escapability is a must as well. We are much closer on defense so it’s the O’s turn in 2026
 

NWMike

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I dunno if he was the #1 QB (he probably was) but it wasn’t clear he was the #1 prospect in this draft because people here were divided between Kyler, Bosa, and Williams. I don’t remember there being much appetite for trading out.

Was Kyler failed? Probably. I think he and MHJ have been coddled by the organization to their detriment. But I also think that Kyler has realized he’s not going to be the best here and so he’s marking time for whatever is next.

I remember Arians saying he took the game plan to the QB room on Wednesday or Thursday and went through with Palmer the top 20-25 plays he liked and wanted to run. Kyler probably doesn’t have a context for that kind of conversation. It’d be interesting to know from someone like Conner or Hernandez how professional/standard the offensive installation is compared to what they’ve experienced elsewhere.

fwiw here is the QB's drafted in 2019

1st round - Murray (1), Daniel Jones (6), Dwayne Haskins (15)
2nd round - Drew Lock (42)
3rd round - Will Grier (100)

Looking back now at the 2019 draft, it seems very weak in general.
1. Murray
2. Bosa
3. Q Williams
4. Clenin Ferrell (yikes)
5. Devin White
6. Jones
7. Josh Allen
8. TJ Hockenson
9. Ed Oliver
10. Devin Bush

Bosa is probably the best of the top 10 picks but the guy has been injured quite a bit throughout his career. If we had taken him and suffered again in 2020 we could have taken Burrow or Hebert but if you go through the list of the qbs taken over the last decade very few of them have really worked out.
 
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