Cardinals : AJ green signed

Discussion in 'Arizona Cardinals' started by Ronin, Mar 17, 2021.

  1. Solar7

    Solar7 Meh

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    You're moving the goalposts. Young talent doesn't have to be under 25 exclusively, but under 30 is extremely fair. But I'll bite and do 25 or under, expanded to 26.

    Let's just take the Washington Football Team:
    Chase Young
    Antonio Gibson
    Daron Payne
    Curtis Samuel
    Montez Sweat
    Terry McLaurin
    Cole Holcomb
    Expand to 26:
    Jonathan Allen
    Kendall Fuller

    Even the Buccaneers, your own argument, have:
    Devin White
    Antoine Winfield Jr.
    Tristan Wirfs
    Ronald Jones II
    Carlton Davis
    Jamel Dean
    Jordan Whitehead
    Chris Godwin
    Expand to 26:
    Vita Vea
    (And Mike Evans is only 27)

    The Cardinals starters under 25 are:
    Lawrence/Fotu (only if Peters doesn't return)
    Jalen Thompson
    Kyler Murray
    Chase Edmonds (assuming no other back added)
    Budda Baker
    Expand to 26:
    Maxx Williams

    One of these things is not like the other.
     
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  2. Solar7

    Solar7 Meh

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    OMG was shock at signing him while I was walking out the door to an appointment and didn't have time to say anything else.

    And I don't know how you think "excited and confused" is "he's got plenty left in the tank." Plus that was days before free agency when I was unaware the goal was to go 0 CB with our defense, lose multiple weapons for Kyler, and do nothing to upgrade the offense but add Green.
     
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  3. BritCard

    BritCard Registered

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    I didn't say YOU said he had plenty left in the tank but the general feeling was. And you yourself were positive about the move and you advocated for it when he was released with the caveat of "If he can stay healthy".

    It's like the single AJ Green signing completely changed your view about everything.
     
  4. QuebecCard

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    So our starting ILB, Simmons at age 22 doesn't make the grade or a 23-year-old Byron Murphy who played over 70% of the defensive snaps or Zack Allen, also 23, who takes regular snaps at D-end and yet the Lawrence/Fotu tandem do? And why would you not include Kirk at 24?
     
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  5. BritCard

    BritCard Registered

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    Let's just take the Skins. So 7 under 25.

    Daron Payne is an average IDL. (3 sacks, 7 TFL, mid 60's grade last year)
    Curtis Samuel you argued here was not a great player and worth a big deal, although granted I like him.
    Cole Holcomb has started about 7 games.

    Again, this is just Grass is Greener stuff.

    Are we short of 25 and under "stars" yeah probably. Compared to these 2 teams you cherry picked.

    But Budda is that. Simmons can be that. A year ago half this board thought Jalen Thompson was legit (never saw it myself). Fotu is likely going to start at Nose and has a bunch of potential.

    I think what this all boils down to is "We don't have a great young WR". I think if we did your whole perception would change.

    There's no doubt Keim sucks *** at drafting. But by the same token it's not like this team is full of geriatrics and has no young talent. I think you will find it's around league average.
     
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  6. Solar7

    Solar7 Meh

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    Honestly, I didn't realize how much money we were going to give Watt. But I really like him as a player and at least it's fun. I'm not even lamenting AJ Green that bad. If we added him, kept Arnold/signed Hunter Henry/added a solid option at RB, I wouldn't really care about the signing and could wait and see. But we subtracted from the offense as a whole and only added a question mark to upgrade him.

    Simmons hasn't proven much of anything, so he's not a "quality" starter as per BritCard's request, but I'll admit I didn't realize we didn't still have DeVondre Campbell, so I'll cede that. Byron Murphy only started 7 games last year despite being healthy, and is still a nickelback, so no, I'm not counting him as a "starter," because he's not an unquestioned starter in the base defense. We just handed out a $31 million deal with $23 million guaranteed to replace Zack Allen, so no, I'm also not considering him a starter. He is now a rotational lineman who will work out the rest of his contract as a backup barring injury. I don't include Kirk because he is no longer a starter. We just paid $8 million to replace him and relegate him to WR #3.

    I'll reply to BC's next post in its own reply.
     
  7. Ouchie-Z-Clown

    Ouchie-Z-Clown I'm better than Mulli!

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    First, do you even recognize your hypocrisy in this post? I’ll help you:

    “the age argument is BS”
    and
    “a 3 year deal for a 31 year old WR isn't a deal I'd really want”

    also, you completely missed the point. Using entire roster age is a faulty argument, or at least it’s a weak argument.

    The following two teams have roughly the same average age. Same number of pro bowlers (“quality” as you claim). But one has a much brighter future and greater likelihood of continuity:

    Age 32+:10 starters (2 pro bowlers), 5 backups
    Age 27-31: 8 starters (2 pro bowlers), 15 backups
    Age 23-26: 4 starters, 15 backups

    age 32: 2 starters (no pro bowlers), 13 backups
    Age 28: 14 starters (3 pro bowlers), 9 backups
    Age 24: 6 starters (1 pro bowler), 9 backups
     
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  8. Ouchie-Z-Clown

    Ouchie-Z-Clown I'm better than Mulli!

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    Maybe in terms of #, but certainly not in terms of actual significance impacting the game. I can trot out a corpse and they can “play” significant snaps.
     
  9. Ouchie-Z-Clown

    Ouchie-Z-Clown I'm better than Mulli!

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    Why is 25 the arbitrary number? That’s actually a terrible benchmark as it would be an incredibly green team. The better threshold would be 27-28. Those are seasoned vets that are in their prime.
     
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  10. Harry

    Harry ASFN Consultant and Senior Writer

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    Give it a rest guys; proof will be when the season is played. We’ve heard your points. The empirical answer will happen in the fall.
     
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  11. Ouchie-Z-Clown

    Ouchie-Z-Clown I'm better than Mulli!

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    You can like a move in a vacuum and like it less, or even dislike it, when looking at the entirety of the whole.

    To take your limited example:

    I am on the fence with jJ watt. I like the talent, I am concerned with the injury history.

    I like the Hudson trade.

    I dislike the aj green signing.

    now if this was math it would be like an average reaction. But when I see adding three 32 year old players, bringing back aged and old Alford, letting young TE walk, the aggregate is we are getting old and we have moved more towards injured players. In the aggregate those moves cut against my thoughts about better roster construction.
     
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  12. Solar7

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    You're nitpicking. Daron Payne may be "average," but he's still quality, and of much more quality than Lawrence or Fotu. His stat line is better than theirs combined (1 sack, 5 TFL, 41 grade for Fotu, 47.8 for Lawrence). He's also got a better pedigree and more talent around him, so he's more likely to improve into a legitimate star than they are. Those two will likely remain just guys.

    I supported signing Curtis Samuel all offseason and back into before the season ended, so not sure what you're getting at. His deal was a lot steeper than I thought it would be, but that still doesn't disqualify him from being considered a quality starter.

    Cole Holcomb has started 25 of his 27 career games. Do you even bother looking this stuff up? He's got a lot more reason to be called a quality starter than Isaiah Simmons does at this point.

    It has nothing to do with "grass is greener," it has to do with how easy it is at a glance to see how much other teams have over us on the young talent side of things.

    Budda is a star, Simmons isn't anything until he shows he is (even though I like him a lot), Jalen Thompson is a middling starter but nothing special, Fotu's got nothing but potential because he hasn't shown a ton yet. No one would cry foul if we brought back Peters today to start ahead of him.

    A young WR has nothing to do with this. I'd prefer a young RB to a young WR. It's all about overall young talent and the fact we have to replace this year's players next year all over again.

    Also, I feel like at some point someone said I cherrypicked these teams, but I can't find that line, so I might have imagined it, but I literally just picked the first team that came to mind because they're my dad's team, and then one team you called out as not being particularly young.
     
  13. Ouchie-Z-Clown

    Ouchie-Z-Clown I'm better than Mulli!

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    Harry’s right. We should stop discussing anything Cardinals related unless it’s new news until training camp.
     
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  14. BritCard

    BritCard Registered

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    Where's the hypocrisy?

    The age argument is BS when it comes to quality. You contribute or you don't. All that really matters on a year to year basis is that you contribute commensurate to your contract. Which is why I have no problem with Green's 1 year deal.

    However, you don't know what Marvin Jones will be at 33 or 34. And I'd say the same of Green if it wasn't a 1 year deal.
     
  15. Ouchie-Z-Clown

    Ouchie-Z-Clown I'm better than Mulli!

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    Why? You have no idea what greens play is going to be this year. All recent evidence points to bad. So you don’t know what jones will be at 33, but you do with aj? If your argument is that jones’ 33 is a few years away and you don’t know what might happen to him so you’re afraid of his 33 season we do know what happened to green in those interveneing seasons, missed entire season with injury and play fell off a cliff. But you’re not worried about his play in season 33 but you are with jones. Those don’t compute.
     

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