Brady=No Suspension

[BigRedRage]

So now a player suspended by the commish for a failed drug test can just sue the league and have his suspension vacated because he did not like the way the test was done.

I am sorry. In my opinion this cuts the commisher's legs off at the knees regarding player suspensions.

A failed drug test is concrete evidence of rule breaking. It is the equivalent of video evidence or anything else substantial like that. There are not specific terms of suspensions and punishment for ball inflation infractions. There are specifics for drug infractions.

 

[crisper57]

Is Goodell stubborn enough to appeal? He won't win.

Yes he would, if he thinks winning the appeal is the only way to save his job.

 

[Dback Jon]

I think this is a good news bad news scenario. Maybe 4 games was too much I have no idea. Maybe it's good that absolute power doesn't exist with Goodell.

But in the end is there a plausible reason why the Pats employee had the footballs for both his team and the opponent, violating NFL rules, that doesn't involve some form of cheating? That to me was the whole case, and as has been said it's preposterous to suggest that Tom Brady wasn't involved, they would not have employees tampering with game balls without the star QB of the team knowing they were being tampered with.

The balls were tampered with, Brady knew about it and probably pushed for it, but the NFL couldn't prove it because Brady refused to cooperate.

I suspect the NFL just chose the wrong punishment, suspend him for X games for refusing to cooperate and it would have stuck.

Exactly. the Patriots culture is why we have millions of lawyers, and hundreds of thousands of regulations.

The Patriots take something that goes against the spirit of the law/rule, break it, then lawyer up to say "well, it isn't written EXACTLY that way", even though everyone knows what the intent is.

 

[CardsFan88]

Goodell got smacked down. The judge didn't even address three issues he probably could of done victory laps against him on.

What's really hilarious is that Tagliabue vacated some of the punishment in Bountygate based on some of these reasons AND some of the other reasons Goodell got burned on, Tagliabue didn't let happen because he was either a) more honorable b)had a much better grip on the law.

Which means that Goodell had everything he needed from recent losses from his idiocy to know not to go down this road, yet LOSER Goodell decided to go down a LOSING path.

This was a witch hunt plain and simple.

Now I wish people would remind themselves about how easily the propaganda by Goodell and the NFL league office swayed them, and be reminded that stuff ancillary to this farce goes on every day on life and death issues all around us. That next time, people should ask some critical thinking questions, before believing propaganda. It just might save your life.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Patriots live under a cheating culture. This doesn't vindicate them it just exposes the NFL for over reaching and being out witted because of their arrogance. Pleanty of guilty parties go free because the burden of proof rules work in their favor.

Goddell should remain as commish because he knows how to print money. The question though, is he too proud to completely restructure the penalty/judgment side of the league and remove himself entirely?

If I were him I would hire the judge that just ruled against him and that would neutralize any opposition. Let that guy run the process. He obviously is fair and the NFL just had no leg for him to stand on.

While that's not a bad idea I think the problem is that the workplace is not a courtroom and many players and teams will get away with a lot more activity that is detrimental to the league bc the evidence isn't always 100% concrete.

While I agree that goodell is often far too heavy handed and inconsistent, I think EVERY sentient being alive (including pats fans) KNOWS Brady is guilty of cheating here. And it's undeniable that his rep, the pats (Super Bowl champs) and the league have been tarnished by all this. Anytime anyone or team is caught cheating it lessens the integrity of the league. For those that want to brush this off as "pish, a few psi" think how mad you were when you found out the crooked ref ran a couple suns v spurs playoff games. It matters.

So in my opinion this comes down to cheating. It shouldn't be allowed. But punishment needs to not be arbitrary, so as to avoid these circuses. Maybe it's as simple as: these are league rules, you violate them it is cheating, cheating (regardless of type of infraction) carries the same harsh punishment of X number of games suspension and loss of X number of draft picks. You cheat, you're punished. Plain and simple. It may be harsh in some circumstances it may be light in others, but it's always predictable and it hopefully eliminates cheating. Other things like substance abuse (note, not PEDs because that's cheating and falls under the prior rules) or domestic violence could still be dealt with on a case by case basis because they aren't cheating, they are conduct detrimental to the appeal of the league. But cheaters are cheaters, regardless of the level of cheating. And who is to say that a few psi don't make a difference? Remember tony sacca? We took him with a 2nd round pick. His hands were too small for nfl footballs. Maybe if he took out a third of the air in a football he could've been an NFL QB. Where do you draw the line on the amount of air you can let out? A rule is a rule. Cheaters should be smacked down hard. While cheating is not as morally reprehensible as striking a woman it is more directly impactful on the product of the nfl. Yes I don't ant wife beaters on my team, but a dude beating a woman doesn't impact the integrity and outcome of the game. Nor does smoking pot. Changing a ball does or it wouldn't be done by cheater Brady. He will always be a cheater in my mind, and likely many more. Even if he didn't give a crap, it taints the nfl.

 

[BigRedRage]

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[Cardsfanstl]

A failed drug test is concrete evidence of rule breaking. It is the equivalent of video evidence or anything else substantial like that. There are not specific terms of suspensions and punishment for ball inflation infractions. There are specifics for drug infractions.

I think you misunderstood my post. I was saying they could sue contesting the way the drug test was done and have a judge rule in their favor vacating the suspension.

 

[Snakester]

Now if they would just overturn both Massie and D-Wash suspensions It would be a good day.

 

[TJ]

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Note to Goodell----just stop.

 

[CardsFan88]

The Patriots take something that goes against the spirit of the law/rule, break it, then lawyer up to say "well, it isn't written EXACTLY that way", even though everyone knows what the intent is.

Not really. There was a PSI range, and the football can LEGALLY be altered to anywhere on that range. It's not against the spirit of the law to be within the range.

Think of it this way, where do you keep the tire pressure on your car? Do you go for the maximum tire pressure or do you keep it a bit under because you may like the feel of the tires a little lower and might think there's less chance to develop leaks at a slightly lower pressure? Are you then endangering everyone else on the road because your tires are 1lb under max pressure? Are you violating everyone else's right on the road and the spirit of safety by having it altered to what you prefer?

Also there is no evidence Brady told them to do anything. They might have gone on their own knowing Brady likes the ball a little light. Most of the complaints we heard from a distance about Brady was that he was pissed it was vastly OVERINFLATED... ABOVE the legal limit. That is not evidence he wanted balls underinflated below the limit. It means, if anything, he wanted HIS equipment guys to MAKE SURE, that it was not illegally OVERINFLATED.

I see nothing wrong with that, and neither should anyone else.

The main thing to remember folks, is that the NFL spewed nothing but propaganda and lies, and jumped to conclusions massively to support their witch hunt. They double and tripled down on idiocy even though they knew they didn't have anything. They tarnished players, a club, and took it to court (one they thought was preferrable) and lost BIG TIME.

They treated everyone as fools, and in the end they themselves look the fool.

You're going off a meme that the Patriots are always looking for an edge. Perhaps there is truth to that (or perhaps was in years past), but in this case, we don't see it, so using it as a rationale is incorrect.

 

[BigRedRage]

I think you misunderstood my post. I was saying they could sue contesting the way the drug test was done and have a judge rule in their favor vacating the suspension.

That is pure hyperbole though.

You urinate in a cup and test it for drugs. There really isn't a "you drug test me the wrong way" argument to make.

 

[Southpaw]

Brady shouldn't get off scott free here. This is ridiculous. Some punishment is necessary, either for the ball deal, or for destroying evidence to hamper the investigation

Why should anyone be compelled to "turn over their cell phone: and self incriminate?

 

[SO91]

Why should anyone be compelled to "turn over their cell phone: and self incriminate?

The "independent investigator" even said he didn't need the phone to conclude his investigation. It was only afterwards that the NFL made a big stink about the damn phone. The amount of leaks that come out during these investigations is reason enough to refuse until you're formally required to.

 

[SO91]

A failed drug test is concrete evidence of rule breaking. It is the equivalent of video evidence or anything else substantial like that. There are not specific terms of suspensions and punishment for ball inflation infractions. There are specifics for drug infractions.

Ryan Braun says that is not always correct

 

[Russ Smith]

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My guess is by the time the appeal is resolved, Brady will retire. Just seems like that's not going to be a fast process at all.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think you misunderstood my post. I was saying they could sue contesting the way the drug test was done and have a judge rule in their favor vacating the suspension.

That's precisely what cyclists were doing for years when they tested positive. Remember the guy who insisted the reason his blood tested positive for coming from a woman was not because he was blood doping, but because his unborn twins DNA was showing up in the tests! That was Tyler Hamilton.

It's a problem when a league can't legally compel participants to give them evidence to use as proof.

 

[Rivercard]

if deflating balls means you score 44 points in a game we should start doing it right away.

Darn straight, no fear of repercussions now. Plus it would reduce our fumbles dramatically. Go for it.

 

[Russ Smith]

Darn straight, no fear of repercussions now. Plus it would reduce our fumbles dramatically. Go for it.

No you lose draft picks, but none of your players can be suspended.

 

[CardsFan88]

Why should anyone be compelled to "turn over their cell phone: and self incriminate?

There's a lot of people who aren't up to speed with everything that happened, so I wouldn't worry about responding to this much further.

Alot of the detractors of this decision CLEARLY haven't been following this investigation.

The NFL had all the information, phone numbers, and email addresess/messages from 66 Patriots and NFL employees. If Brady was discussing tampering with the footballs, they would have known it WITHOUT ANY NEED FOR BRADY'S PHONE. This is what people forget.

They didn't have squat for evidence. NONE.

This was a witch hunt without ANY evidence, and why would Brady want to give the lying and leaking NFL league office access to personal information? The stuff would likely end up on TMZ. The NFL would likely put stuff out one sided and refuse to retract anything for 8 months or so and ongoing.

They don't have any evidence the balls were even tampered with. NONE.

They ASSUME because a guy goes into there he was tampering with balls. OK, let's say that was true, was he just checking them to see they weren't OVERINFLATED to 14 or 15 like had been the case earlier? Perhaps.

It's a big leap to say that incriminates them all in a scheme to underinflate balls.

It's a big leap to say a $5,512 fine should be changed to 4 games on the whim of Dictator Goodell. But they can't even prove a $5,512 fine should be applied, and in other cases the Miami Dolphins ball warming situation AND the Jay Feely incident ALL SHOW that NO SUCH WITCH HUNT HAPPENED. In fact they didn't even go after Feely at all, and the Dolphins were given a warning (as per the CBA).

The amount of falsehoods put out by Goodell and the league office is absolutely shameful, and far worse then videogate.

The league office and Goodell have done 10000000x worse then Patriots ever had or were even accused of doing.

If people want to get caught up with the minutiae of what happened, they need to read Mike Florio's work over the past few months, all hundred articles of massive critical thinking. He blew the NFL out of the water on pretty much EVERYTHING.

He went into FAR MORE impropriety then the judge did about a dozen or more subjects. Including how horribly the league office was in the face of legitimate gripes the Patriots had with bogus information still on the record.

The people who thought Brady was a cheater, never looked at the mountains of evidence against the NFL.

The NFL has nothing on its side except some people who still believe in one of it's propaganda lies, and are now left wondering what the hell happened.

This is what happens when propaganda is treated as fact.

 

[Rivercard]

No you lose draft picks, but none of your players can be suspended.

I'll give up a draft pick to gain a significant onfield competitive advantage.

 

[GuernseyCard]

That's precisely what cyclists were doing for years when they tested positive. Remember the guy who insisted the reason his blood tested positive for coming from a woman was not because he was blood doping, but because his unborn twins DNA was showing up in the tests! That was Tyler Hamilton.

It's a problem when a league can't legally compel participants to give them evidence to use as proof.

If the League had a policy reading in essence: "failure to cooperate in an investigation can (or will) lead to a suspension." then they could have suspended Brady on the phone issue. They didn't... so they can't.

 

[Russ Smith]

They don't have any evidence the balls were even tampered with. NONE.

They ASSUME because a guy goes into there he was tampering with balls. OK, let's say that was true, was he just checking them to see they weren't OVERINFLATED to 14 or 15 like had been the case earlier? Perhaps.

It's a big leap to say that incriminates them all in a scheme to underinflate balls.

.

So you think the difference in weight of the balls was entirely by chance? And that a Patriot employee taking the game balls of an OPPONENT isn't a problem?

That's why the NFL had such a problem with his IMO, because the guy had the balls for BOTH teams. He probably just deflated the Pats balls but he had the OPPORTUNITY to mess with both teams game balls.

What if he'd intentionally tampered with the balls of the opponent, and then The Pats casually go to the refs before the game and report they think the other team is using non regulation game balls?

I'm sure there was a vendetta angle here because of past cheating with the Pats, that's human nature and maybe Goodell was wrong to do that.

But it's just bizarre to me that people actually believe that guy took the balls for both teams and wasn't doing something wrong.

 

[Russ Smith]

If the League had a policy reading in essence: "failure to cooperate in an investigation can (or will) lead to a suspension." then they could have suspended Brady on the phone issue. They didn't... so they can't.

But they can't have such a policy, it's not explicit enough. The Pats lawyers would have argued the definition of cooperate. That's the whole point, if you can't legally compel someone to give you evidence, its' very tough to prove things.

There is always a way using lawyers to argue semantics to get around something worded that way.

 

[SO91]

There's a lot of people who aren't up to speed with everything that happened, so I wouldn't worry about responding to this much further.

Alot of the detractors of this decision CLEARLY haven't been following this investigation.

The NFL had all the information, phone numbers, and email addresess/messages from 66 Patriots and NFL employees. If Brady was discussing tampering with the footballs, they would have known it WITHOUT ANY NEED FOR BRADY'S PHONE. This is what people forget.

They didn't have squat for evidence. NONE.

This was a witch hunt without ANY evidence, and why would Brady want to give the lying and leaking NFL league office access to personal information? The stuff would likely end up on TMZ. The NFL would likely put stuff out one sided and refuse to retract anything for 8 months or so and ongoing.

They don't have any evidence the balls were even tampered with. NONE.

They ASSUME because a guy goes into there he was tampering with balls. OK, let's say that was true, was he just checking them to see they weren't OVERINFLATED to 14 or 15 like had been the case earlier? Perhaps.

It's a big leap to say that incriminates them all in a scheme to underinflate balls.

It's a big leap to say a $5,512 fine should be changed to 4 games on the whim of Dictator Goodell. But they can't even prove a $5,512 fine should be applied, and in other cases the Miami Dolphins ball warming situation AND the Jay Feely incident ALL SHOW that NO SUCH WITCH HUNT HAPPENED. In fact they didn't even go after Feely at all, and the Dolphins were given a warning (as per the CBA).

The amount of falsehoods put out by Goodell and the league office is absolutely shameful, and far worse then videogate.

The league office and Goodell have done 10000000x worse then Patriots ever had or were even accused of doing.

If people want to get caught up with the minutiae of what happened, they need to read Mike Florio's work over the past few months, all hundred articles of massive critical thinking. He blew the NFL out of the water on pretty much EVERYTHING.

He went into FAR MORE impropriety then the judge did about a dozen or more subjects. Including how horribly the league office was in the face of legitimate gripes the Patriots had with bogus information still on the record.

The people who thought Brady was a cheater, never looked at the mountains of evidence against the NFL.

The NFL has nothing on its side except some people who still believe in one of it's propaganda lies, and are now left wondering what the hell happened.

This is what happens when propaganda is treated as fact.

Chris Mortensen waited 6 months to delete the tweet about the balls being 2 pounds under-inflated. That turned out to be completely false and incorrect. That information was leaked by the NFL and people still seem to believe that crap.

 

[GuernseyCard]

There's a lot of people who aren't up to speed with everything that happened, so I wouldn't worry about responding to this much further.

Alot of the detractors of this decision CLEARLY haven't been following this investigation.

The NFL had all the information, phone numbers, and email addresess/messages from 66 Patriots and NFL employees. If Brady was discussing tampering with the footballs, they would have known it WITHOUT ANY NEED FOR BRADY'S PHONE. This is what people forget.

They didn't have squat for evidence. NONE.

This was a witch hunt without ANY evidence, and why would Brady want to give the lying and leaking NFL league office access to personal information? The stuff would likely end up on TMZ. The NFL would likely put stuff out one sided and refuse to retract anything for 8 months or so and ongoing.

They don't have any evidence the balls were even tampered with. NONE.

They ASSUME because a guy goes into there he was tampering with balls. OK, let's say that was true, was he just checking them to see they weren't OVERINFLATED to 14 or 15 like had been the case earlier? Perhaps.

It's a big leap to say that incriminates them all in a scheme to underinflate balls.

It's a big leap to say a $5,512 fine should be changed to 4 games on the whim of Dictator Goodell. But they can't even prove a $5,512 fine should be applied, and in other cases the Miami Dolphins ball warming situation AND the Jay Feely incident ALL SHOW that NO SUCH WITCH HUNT HAPPENED. In fact they didn't even go after Feely at all, and the Dolphins were given a warning (as per the CBA).

The amount of falsehoods put out by Goodell and the league office is absolutely shameful, and far worse then videogate.

The league office and Goodell have done 10000000x worse then Patriots ever had or were even accused of doing.

If people want to get caught up with the minutiae of what happened, they need to read Mike Florio's work over the past few months, all hundred articles of massive critical thinking. He blew the NFL out of the water on pretty much EVERYTHING.

He went into FAR MORE impropriety then the judge did about a dozen or more subjects. Including how horribly the league office was in the face of legitimate gripes the Patriots had with bogus information still on the record.

The people who thought Brady was a cheater, never looked at the mountains of evidence against the NFL.

The NFL has nothing on its side except some people who still believe in one of it's propaganda lies, and are now left wondering what the hell happened.

This is what happens when propaganda is treated as fact.

If Goodell was so concerned about the integrity of the game, he would have informed all playoff teams that they had received a report on under inflated balls, and would be checking this closely game day.

But no, rather than do that, they decided to run a sting operation.

Brilliant!, as we say.