At this point why is Kyler better than Dobbs?

SoonerLou

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Unquestionably Murray has more talent than Dobbs. I think the premise of this thread is that we don't know whether we'll ever see first half of 2021 Murray again, and we don't know how Murray will play in the new O.

2022 Murray was ranked 23rd in the league in passer rating at 87 and 20th in QBR at 53.6, and added 38 yards per game rushing (right at his career average). Then he tore his ACL and now he has to learn a new offense. After 3 games including one he started after 2 weeks with the team, Dobbs is 10th in the league in passer rating at 98 and 11th in QBR at 61.6, and added 31 yards per game rushing.
Saw it elsewhere, but Jacoby Brissett was technically a better fit than Deshaun Watson for the Browns last year. Even though obviously Deshaun is better.

Now schematically speaking we have a more efficient run game to complement the passing. Previous years we had to establish the short passing game to essentially be our running game. So instead of handing the ball off and getting 4 yards we were throwing screens to get it. Stuff like that impacts passer rating. So many short completions for not much yards on so many pass attempts.

In terms of QBR the thing that stands out now is Dobbs isnt having a bunch of 3 and outs. Now some of that is us being ahead of schedule. Some of that is rolling him out to avoid pressure. And some is probably just him getting rid of the ball quickly. He's only been sacked 5 times in 3 games.

I think the divide of Kliff and Kyler is that Kliff wanted Kyler to stay on schedule with the nickle and dimers (supplementing the run game) and that eventually the defense would make a mistake and we'd capitalize. I think Kyler felt that the defenses had a read on our offense so he wanted to be in attack mode. This lead to aggressive shots down field that force 3 and outs or drives suddenly stalling.

So there is going to have to be patience on Kyler's part. Dobbs is only throwing for 183 yards a game. So he's not asked to carry an offense but just compliment it. However, this is where we see if with Kyler its about maxing his skillset within this system. Or if Kyler is going to unlock the system Petzing really wants to run.
 

PJ1

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KM has skills superior to Dobbs…History does matter as KM has played at a very high level….Who knows what we will get when he comes back but that doesn’t mean Dobbs is a better QB….
 
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slanidrac16

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If you dismiss past performance, how can you reasonably say that this thread is offered in good faith? Right now Dobbs is better than Kyler because he's healthy and able to play NFL football and Kyler isn't.

In two weeks Dobbs will likely be better than Kyler because he'll have played football in the past 10 months and been working in this offense off and on for the past two years.

In a month Kyler will be better than Dobbs because he's faster, he has a better arm, he has better ball placement, he has a smoother delivery, and he's more aggressive getting the ball to his playmakers.

The chance this thread doesn't look unhinged in 60 days is extremely small. Dobbs passed for 189 yards yesterday. 36% of those yards came on one play where apparently Michael Wilson did the "You Can't See Me" gesture at the Dallas defense and they went for it.

On the other 20 pass attempts Dobbs averaged 6.0 yards. Good game by him; great team win by the Arizona Cardinals. The guy is 28 years old and just won his first NFL game. Eight days ago we were wondering if Clayton Tune might be the better option.

Let's take a deep breath.
See, that’s exactly what my question was all about, your insight and perspective. Thanks.
 
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slanidrac16

slanidrac16

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Why is Dobbs better than Kyler?
Why would you rather see him playing Qb?

Murray is immensely more talented, has a better arm, and has played at a high level.
He’s played at low levels too.

But low levels are all you get with Dobbs. He has had 1 acceptable game when the rush game was the main reason the offense was clicking.

This thread is kind of ridiculous. Would you rather have Baker Mayfield over Tom Brady because he’s had a somewhat decent start for TB?
Nowhere did I say I preferred Dobbs. It was a question that is to take into consideration that Kyler hadn’t played in this type of offense. He’s coming off an injury that MANY question how it will affect him going forward. Will he lose the mobility that makes him special?
 
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slanidrac16

slanidrac16

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I understand why you raise the issue. Actually the system & coach really make it impossible to accurately answer your concerns. Keep in mind you’re working with a small sample size of Dobbs performance-wise. His historical results warn that this may not be his new norm. He may revert to his previous levels. Sadly I think we know little about Murray’s capabilities due to Kingsbury’s incompetence. I don’t think any QB could have been sucessful in that regime, let alone could they have reached their potential. Even if Dobbs plays well, it’s Murray’s job when he’s able. For no other reason than the Cards must assess his trade value.

I do believe Murray is the better athlete. I also believe he has a better arm. However, he didn’t get hardly any Cards’ coaching to move his skillset forward. Also 4 teams have decided Dobbs wasn’t an NFL QB; starting or backup. That’s a significant amount of coaching expertise to miss that badly.

Questioning Murray is fair? How well can he take coaching? Will he willingly adjust his game to go under center? Can he learn to use the pocket? Is he a leader? These are all valid concerns to mention just a few. Clearly Murray is no sure thing. I’m impressed with this staff. I believe they will figure it out. With both the Cards & Texas looking like they’ll win a few, drafting a winning QB is no longer a sure thing. I’m hoping Murray becomes the QB I think he’s capable of becoming, but I’ll freely admit, like the coaching staff, Dobbs has greatly exceeded my expectations.
Thank you Harry. There are some that assumed I was attacking the issue that Murray shouldn’t be our Qb.
 
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slanidrac16

slanidrac16

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KM turned into a pumpkin right in front of our eyes

DC's figured him out
Schemes were bad
He got into bad habits
His spin move no longer worked
He was not going through his reads

IMO it's mostly mental for him
Reading the defense
Calling audibles
Working under center to use play action
Physically he needs to learn to work in the pocket.
Slide and move up to avoid the rush
Not take off running backwards at the first movement on the Oline

Study as much film as you can KM it will help you to elevate your game and get your confidence back

Dobbs is doing those things but he does not have the arm, skills or talent of KM
Excellent response.
 
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slanidrac16

slanidrac16

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Unquestionably Murray has more talent than Dobbs. I think the premise of this thread is that we don't know whether we'll ever see first half of 2021 Murray again, and we don't know how Murray will play in the new O.

2022 Murray was ranked 23rd in the league in passer rating at 87 and 20th in QBR at 53.6, and added 38 yards per game rushing (right at his career average). Then he tore his ACL and now he has to learn a new offense. After 3 games including one he started after 2 weeks with the team, Dobbs is 10th in the league in passer rating at 98 and 11th in QBR at 61.6, and added 31 yards per game rushing.
Thanks Dave’s. That is exactly the premise of the question.
 

Krangodnzr

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It’s pretty much the opposite of all the bad mouthers who were saying Dobbs was a nobody after week one and only being with the team for 10 days…
Yep. Dobbs is a good NFL backup. That's it.

But if you paid attention a few weeks ago, the Cardinals gave up eleventy billion draft picks to get him and were incredibly stupid to trade for him. Worst NFL move ever, or so you would think by the absolute outrage on this forum.

The truth has always been in the middle. The coaching staff (Petzing) was very comfortable with him and he offered an upgrade over McCoy after the team evaluated McCoy. It was a solid move that cost very little and it paid off. No way would David Blough or Tune have pulled off that win yesterday.
 

Mainstreet

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I like Dobbs as a backup quarterback, but I never entertained the idea of him being a long term starter.

IMO, a starter should not lose their job because of an injury.

Kyler deserves an opportunity to play under the Cardinals new head coach. I suspect he will be a much better quarterback under Gannon than Kingsbury.
 

TheCardFan

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Have you followed this board over the last year? Have you seen the number of posters who wanted to trade Kyler. Thus the question.

Those are two completely different situations.

1) Kyler vs Dobbs is a joke comparison. You have to know that. If you don't, then there is no point in discussing it with you.
2) Kyler being traded or not will have zero impact on Dobbs being a starter. Might have played himself into a solid #2.
 

juza76

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This is a bad take. You don't run as much as Kyler if you're afraid to get hit. Also, Dobbs is playing for an opportunity and will take more risks to his body. I guarantee the moment he gets paid, that changes.
He run a lot but in a safe way, often if he sees a defender having high chance to tackle him, he slide some yards earlier or just cut his run out of the field
 

BritCard

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What makes me think Kyler is better than Dobbs?

Everything is the answer.

We've gone from "Dobbs sucks and we won't ever score more than 20 points" to "I think Dobbs might be better than Kyler" in 2 weeks.
 
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slanidrac16

slanidrac16

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What makes me think Kyler is better than Dobbs?

Everything is the answer.

We've gone from "Dobbs sucks and we won't ever score more than 20 points" to "I think Dobbs might be better than Kyler" in 2 weeks.
You are absolutely correct. I said we wouldn’t score 20 pts with Dobbs at Qb. And I was wrong.
I’m not saying Dobbs should be our qb after Kyler is deemed healthy.
Kyler had digressed over the last year for whatever reason you want to choose. Kingsbury, the roster, the play calling, whatever.
Now add the injury and a new system he has never played in. Not in high school. Not in college and not in the NFL.
It’s a question. Not a statement. However, I think it’s a bit funny when the answer to a question is “ because”.
Nobody questions Kyler’s physical ability, before the injury.
Watch this site explode if Kyler returns and performs like he did in the Rams playoff game. lol! There will be many calling for his head and the draft Williams banter will start all over.
 

Russ Smith

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The question is why do you think that. In your opinion what makes you think that. Because the pundits tell you?


I get your point but in essence what you're saying is the entire NFL that didn't want Josh Dobbs is wrong and he's actually a legit NFL starter. That MIGHT be true but I don't think the 3 starts this year are enough to prove that. He was excellent against Dallas, but he was terrible in game 1 and mediocre in game 2.

As for faster than Kyler, the only way that would be true is if Kyler lost his speed due to the ACL, out of college Dobbs ran a 4.64 40, Kyler didn't run it at the combine but reportedly ran a 4.38 at OU, even if we assume that's hype he's still faster than Dobbs, or was before the ACL.

I like Dobbs but I haven't seen anything yet that makes me think he's a real NFL starter. Smith at least had been a starter before and then had major injuries, Dobbs has not shown in the past he's a potential starter.
 

BritCard

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You are absolutely correct. I said we wouldn’t score 20 pts with Dobbs at Qb. And I was wrong.
I’m not saying Dobbs should be our qb after Kyler is deemed healthy.
Kyler had digressed over the last year for whatever reason you want to choose. Kingsbury, the roster, the play calling, whatever.
Now add the injury and a new system he has never played in. Not in high school. Not in college and not in the NFL.
It’s a question. Not a statement. However, I think it’s a bit funny when the answer to a question is “ because”.
Nobody questions Kyler’s physical ability, before the injury.
Watch this site explode if Kyler returns and performs like he did in the Rams playoff game. lol! There will be many calling for his head and the draft Williams banter will start all over.

Sorry it wasn't a particular dig at you but there has been a little bit of over correction of Dobbs.

Someone on Twitter had a poll about "Would you trade Dobbs for a 3rd round pick to the Jets when Kyler is healthy?"

Dobbs is doing great and he's a good dude. But I think his ceiling is very good backup that can win within structure if the OC has a great gameplan.

I do think there is a likelihood that they don't rush Kyler back until Kyler looks 100% in practice because Dobbs is playing well and the team are behind him.

There's a not insignificant chance that it takes Kyler a while to throw with the anticipation needed to run this offense. It's traditionally been one of his weak points.
 
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