ARI@STL: Heroes and Goats

[john h]

Cooper is absolutely "that guy" who is responsible for the hit on Stanton... He actually whiffed on his man and in so doing, pancaked Sendlein! There remains a tremendous amount of rust all over Cooper... However, if BASK see progress and hope - I'm down with them!!
As for Rucker, I think I've mentioned his name in these threads of yours at least 4-5 times now. The guy, by far, has been my biggest unsung hero on this team all year!!

No matter what happens the rest of the way this has been a fun year all season long. Our DC and Airens should receive medals. Everything is just gravy from here on. Our biggest loss next year will be our DC. Way to play ball Cards. Can you believe 11 wins?

 

[Chopper0080]

some folks just cannot get over it when a top draft pick does not step on the field and play like a pro bowler in their rookie season,....or even their second season if said rookie season was defunct due to serious injury.

Cooper is fine...his technique and agility is fine...what we are witnessing is a disruption in what is called..."Continuity"... Line continuity comes when one player (Sendlein perhaps) knows when another player,(maybe Coop) is going to pass a guy over or step around you to pick up a free blitzer....knowing when he is going to slide left, or reach over and punch your guy to keep him from getting around you.
all season long we have seen runs to the right,....and watched our RB get dragged down from backside pursuit....until the past two games...all season long we have watched our RB's hit a wall at the LOS on half of their carries...until the past two games...

the facts are the facts....our O-Line is better with Cooper in the game. It shows on the field,...it shows in the stat lines....and it passes the Oaken1 eyeball test...

who gives a rats ass what some dude that writes articles for a living thinks?

i cant tell if you are kidding or not...

 

[LarryStalling]

One thing I noticed in the game was that our kicker marked his place and did not wander from his spot like he did in the last kick that he missed last week.

 

[cardncubfan]

Disagree, they're similar to Mitch and Catfish in that regard.

However, there's nothing wrong with two dudes having a similar opinion on a week to week basis. They may look at the game in similar ways, it's not a big deal. But to say they don't similarly agree often is just not paying attention.

Not even close.

 

[kerouac9]

I still think Cooper did well enough to not be on your goat list. The only thing I noticed he did wrong was the Stanton injury. Other then that not one oline man should be on your goat list. They played the best I have seen all year. One sack and one qb hit. That's awesome numbers.

Cooper is the guy responsible for the hit on Stanton, but again, not s goat. Technique was fine throughout most of the game.

Funny that two of our most productive offensive line games have come when Coopet has been starting. At a certain point, it's no longer coincidental.

I watched the game and I didn't see as many of those instances as you wanted him to display.

At this point, I'm not convinced you know how to appropriately analyze offensive line play.

with all the cooper bashing thats happened since he came in, isnt he doing better than Larsen was? How come we can suddenly run so much better, even with Taylor who only had like 150 yards all season coming into this game? Is the unit working better despite Cooper?

I have seen him make some whiffs and bad plays but it is odd that the two best blocked games of the year happened after Cooper got in the lineup.

We get it. You hate Cooper. Enough said on the topic.

http://blog.azcardinals.com/2014/12/15/keim-talks-stanton-rehab-qb-situation/

It was the offensive line’s best game to date, Keim said. Guard Jonathan Cooper is “playing like a rookie” and needs to improve technically quite a bit, but it’s a start, Keim said.

Stupid Keim hates Jonathan Cooper, too, I guess.

 

[TJ]

http://blog.azcardinals.com/2014/12/15/keim-talks-stanton-rehab-qb-situation/







Stupid Keim hates Jonathan Cooper, too, I guess.

"Stupid" Keim didn't describe his technique as garbage, and doesn't continue to perseverate over not looking like a pro bowler.

 

[kerouac9]

"Stupid" Keim didn't describe his technique as garbage, and doesn't continue to perseverate over not looking like a pro bowler.

Oh... I don't think you meant to quote me there.

I think this is what you're aiming for:

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[TJ]

Oh... I don't think you meant to quote me there.

I did. Again, you're taking my responses too personally.

You don't want to get offended, don't expose yourself. Simple.

 

[kerouac9]

I did. Again, you're taking my responses too personally.

You don't want to get offended, don't expose yourself. Simple.

If you don't want to offend me, keep my words in context and actually read them. I defy you to find where I or anyone else faulted Cooper for "not looking like a pro bowler."

 

[Chopper0080]

"Stupid" Keim didn't describe his technique as garbage, and doesn't continue to perseverate over not looking like a pro bowler.

Who is complaining that he doesn't look like a Pro Bowler? I would just like him to not look like our worst offensive lineman on the field which he did vs KC. I'm gonna watch the St Louis game again and keep track of his "negative" plays so hopefully we can put this to bed.

 

[TJ]

Who is complaining that he doesn't look like a Pro Bowler? I would just like him to not look like our worst offensive lineman on the field which he did vs KC. I'm gonna watch the St Louis game again and keep track of his "negative" plays so hopefully we can put this to bed.

No offense, but that's not going to put anything "to bed." Just another opinion on the matter. Nothing more, nothing less.

Cooper may not have looked like a first-round pick, but he looked much better than Larsen against KC in terms of performance, etc.

 

[Chopper0080]

So, I just finished charting the game for Cooper, and the trend continues.

The facts...

In grading offensive line play, the simple way to do it is mark a positive tic for any properly executed pull block, combo run block, and combo pass block. Also, I did chart one positive tic for a iso pass block because it was very well executed, and pass pro shifted away. Negative plays are for opening the gate (becoming perpendicular to the LOS before the QB hits the top of his drop, any 360 degree turn, where a player is beat one on one, and when a player is on the ground.

By quarter...

1st Q
1+ & 4-.
-positive was a combo block, negatives all opening the gate.

2nd Q
3+ & 4-.
-positive for single pass block, combo, and pull, negatives a 360, ground, beat, and opening the gate.

3rd Q
3+ & 3-
-positive 3 combo blocks, negatives for 360, ground, and then turning away from the stunt which got Stanton hurt.

4th Q
2+ & 3-
-positive for one combo and one pull, negatives two 360 & beat once.


So, 9 positive plays and 14 negative plays. Still very inconsistent. One thing that is easy to see is how Cooper tends to lunge and get off balance very easily. This leads to a lot of his issues. Most coaches would prefer more non-descript plays. Consistency is really valued and is a huge area where Cooper is struggling. Where you can see Cooper's potential is in his combo blocks. He can be pretty good at engaging a defender, then disengaging and picking up another block. His pulls were ok, but they got the job done. Another issue that popped up is Cooper likes to grab, a lot. That should improve if he learns to play with better balance.

For a second week he was our worst lineman on the field IMO. Neither Larsen or Massie had as many bad plays as Cooper did, even if they didn't have the positive ones either. My disappointment is in Cooper failing to provide consistently average blocking due to his poor mechanics. He gets himself out of position which causes him to play off balance, lunge, and get beat when he shouldn't. Hopefully that will change.

 

[Chopper0080]

No offense, but that's not going to put anything "to bed." Just another opinion on the matter. Nothing more, nothing less.

Cooper may not have looked like a first-round pick, but he looked much better than Larsen against KC in terms of performance, etc.

You will see what you want to see I guess. I really want Cooper to be good, but charting the plays, he just isn't playing that way.

 

[oaken1]

Chopper....I saw the same with the lunging....when he hit the ground several times it was after he had blocked his man...he blocked his guy well,...but could not then move to the next level to block another.
his leverage is off and he is not playing with good balance right now.

but the game is faster than he is used to, it was his second NFL start....and he was facing possibly the best defensive front in the entire NFL....that same defensive front puts experienced veteran starters in the dirt every week,...and spin them like tops.

second NFL start...... Can he be better?? Absolutely, and I fully expect it...but Coop is fine...he will improve every week and come opening day next season he will be the starter.

 

[kerouac9]

Chopper....I saw the same with the lunging....when he hit the ground several times it was after he had blocked his man...he blocked his guy well,...but could not then move to the next level to block another.
his leverage is off and he is not playing with good balance right now.

but the game is faster than he is used to, it was his second NFL start....and he was facing possibly the best defensive front in the entire NFL....that same defensive front puts experienced veteran starters in the dirt every week,...and spin them like tops.

second NFL start...... Can he be better?? Absolutely, and I fully expect it...but Coop is fine...he will improve every week and come opening day next season he will be the starter.

I think that's the thing--he didn't improve from last week to this one.

EDIT: Good linemen--even early in their carrers--don't do the 360 that Chopper mentions Cooper doing multiple times in both of these games. It makes no sense why he'd think that this is something acceptable to do as an NFL player. That this fundamental error continues to happen is stunning for a draft pick this high and with so much practice time under his belt.

I know that I'm cheering for Cooper to succeed. I was in favor of us drafting him. I feel confident saying that Chopper wants Cooper to play at a Pro Bowl level as quickly as possible. That doesn't change that his fundamentals and technique are a mess right now.

 

[Stout]

I think that's the thing--he didn't improve from last week to this one.

EDIT: Good linemen--even early in their carrers--don't do the 360 that Chopper mentions Cooper doing multiple times in both of these games. It makes no sense why he'd think that this is something acceptable to do as an NFL player. That this fundamental error continues to happen is stunning for a draft pick this high and with so much practice time under his belt.

I know that I'm cheering for Cooper to succeed. I was in favor of us drafting him. I feel confident saying that Chopper wants Cooper to play at a Pro Bowl level as quickly as possible. That doesn't change that his fundamentals and technique are a mess right now.

You are doing your utmost to tear him down on every possible occasion. Just saying the above doesn't make it so, not when you represent quite the opposite. Quoting Keim saying he's playing at a rookie level is normal, since this is essentially his rookie season and coming up on his third game in said season. No matter what you say, he isn't playing like the garbage, no-clue, no-talent hack you're saying. He isn't great, perfect, or solid in technique yet.

He isn't a world beater yet. He HAS helped improve the run game, however, and he HAS shown flashes of potential.

 

[kerouac9]

You are doing your utmost to tear him down on every possible occasion. Just saying the above doesn't make it so, not when you represent quite the opposite. Quoting Keim saying he's playing at a rookie level is normal, since this is essentially his rookie season and coming up on his third game in said season. No matter what you say, he isn't playing like the garbage, no-clue, no-talent hack you're saying. He isn't great, perfect, or solid in technique yet.

He isn't a world beater yet. He HAS helped improve the run game, however, and he HAS shown flashes of potential.

Where am I or anyone else "saying" exactly this?

This is not his rookie season. It's not even "essentially" his rookie season, because he's had two training camps and 15 weeks of in-season practice to get his stuff together.

Just say "I'm making excuses because I'm afraid he's going to fail." I think that's what you mean, anyway.

 

[Chopper0080]

Where am I or anyone else "saying" exactly this?

This is not his rookie season. It's not even "essentially" his rookie season, because he's had two training camps and 15 weeks of in-season practice to get his stuff together.

Just say "I'm making excuses because I'm afraid he's going to fail." I think that's what you mean, anyway.

This is something that people are discounting. Cooper is not a rookie in any way, shape, or form. He is an inexperienced player who has had plenty of time to learn, understand, and apply proper technique and fundamentals. Something people fail to understand is that mastering technique and fundamentals is a work ethic thing. Guys who have talent and can't master mechanics are guys who aren't working hard enough or smart enough.

He has the talent. He has had the time. Where he is lacking is in what he has done TO THIS POINT, to prepare for a starting opportunity. Hopefully he wakes up and decides to perfect his craft, but until that changes, he will continue to be an inconsistent player.

 

[Chopper0080]

So, for those who are frustrated with the critical tone of my posts, keep this in mind.

All of Jonathan Cooper's issues are correctable. But it will be up to him to correct them.

He isn't a big workout guy which you can tell because of his lack of snap with his hips to generate power. That is something you improve by consistently making power cleans a part of your work out program. He can correct that.

He plays off balance because he lunges into his blocks which is due to a lack of strength and confidence in his ability to anchor. He can correct that.

He opens the gate consistently which is due to poor footwork. Essentially, he is using the same footwork on different drops and vs different allignments which keeps him from consistently making contact with the defender with his shoulders square. He can correct that.

He has a tendency to grab which is due to being off balance and out of position. If he fixes those two things, he will grab less. (same goes for Patrick Peterson). He can correct that.

So, my point is that there is reason to believe that he CAN become the player we tohught he would be when we drafted him, but whether he WILL is up to him.

 

[Dback Jon]

This is something that people are discounting. Cooper is not a rookie in any way, shape, or form. He is an inexperienced player who has had plenty of time to learn, understand, and apply proper technique and fundamentals. Something people fail to understand is that mastering technique and fundamentals is a work ethic thing. Guys who have talent and can't master mechanics are guys who aren't working hard enough or smart enough.

He has the talent. He has had the time. Where he is lacking is in what he has done TO THIS POINT, to prepare for a starting opportunity. Hopefully he wakes up and decides to perfect his craft, but until that changes, he will continue to be an inconsistent player.

You can go to all the practices and training camps in the world, but until you are playing in a live game, you are still a rookie.

How many times was Stanton/Lindley sacked? Hurried? Knocked Down?

How many yards did the Cards rush for?

 

[kerouac9]

You can go to all the practices and training camps in the world, but until you are playing in a live game, you are still a rookie.

How many times was Stanton/Lindley sacked? Hurried? Knocked Down?

How many yards did the Cards rush for?

That's utter, utter nonsense. Is Kerwynn Williams a rookie? Earl Watford? Alex Okafor?

 

[TJ]

This is something that people are discounting. Cooper is not a rookie in any way, shape, or form. He is an inexperienced player who has had plenty of time to learn, understand, and apply proper technique and fundamentals. Something people fail to understand is that mastering technique and fundamentals is a work ethic thing. Guys who have talent and can't master mechanics are guys who aren't working hard enough or smart enough.



He has the talent. He has had the time. Where he is lacking is in what he has done TO THIS POINT, to prepare for a starting opportunity. Hopefully he wakes up and decides to perfect his craft, but until that changes, he will continue to be an inconsistent player.

I'll tell you that there is a significant difference between executing and improving your technique in practice, along with developing and refining a solid mental approach to the game, which all has a significant impact on your technique and overall performance.

There are things that only in-game experience can help. To Cooper's credit, he is a de facto rookie because he doesn't have the in-game experience needed to grow.

Additionally, I don't think his technique is awful, but even now, he's still a solid lineman and an upgrade over Larsen or Fanaika. For him to improve, he needs to be out there more.

 

[Dback Jon]

That's utter, utter nonsense. Is Kerwynn Williams a rookie? Earl Watford? Alex Okafor?

That's your opinion. Far easier to come in as a RB than an OL. Even the best OL struggle initially.

Many were calling Okafor crap before the last few games - he obviously had a learning curve, and he is in his second season playing.

Watford? Struggled early.


And no OL is perfect - please answer the second part of my question.

 

[Chopper0080]

You can go to all the practices and training camps in the world, but until you are playing in a live game, you are still a rookie.

How many times was Stanton/Lindley sacked? Hurried? Knocked Down?

How many yards did the Cards rush for?

You are confusing inexperience with being a rookie. Being a rookie is not knowing the strength program, the meeting schedule, or the professional routine. Being a rookie is not understanding how professional football works, it has nothing to do with your on the field playing experience. It is not knowing or understanding work require and physicality of the NFL. That is what changes from year 1 to year 2. Year 2 you know where you need to go. You know at you need to do. Being a rookie is not really about a lack of on the field experience. Players are drafted because they know how to play football. Being a rookie is about learning to be a professional.

In regards to your other points regarding sacks and rushing yards, that is a naive conclusion. In a team sport, the end result can be more than the sum of it's parts, but doesn't make the parts all good. Just because your car can run, doesn't mean that it is running at it's optimal level. Saying that because the end result was good, the parts are good too is the same naive logic that led people to believe Kevin Kolb was our future after a 4-0 start to the season.

 

[Dback Jon]

You are confusing inexperience with being a rookie. Being a rookie is not knowing the strength program, the meeting schedule, or the professional routine. Being a rookie is not understanding how professional football works, it has nothing to do with your on the field playing experience. It is not knowing or understanding work require and physicality of the NFL. That is what changes from year 1 to year 2. Year 2 you know where you need to go. You know at you need to do. Being a rookie is not really about a lack of on the field experience. Players are drafted because they know how to play football. Being a rookie is about learning to be a professional.

In regards to your other points regarding sacks and rushing yards, that is a naive conclusion. In a team sport, the end result can be more than the sum of it's parts, but doesn't make the parts all good. Just because your car can run, doesn't mean that it is running at it's optimal level. Saying that because the end result was good, the parts are good too is the same naive logic that led people to believe Kevin Kolb was our future after a 4-0 start to the season.

No one is proclaiming Cooper all-Pro. he is learning, and has a lot to learn. but you have to have GAME experience. It is really simple.


How is that a naïve conclusion? Results show the OL has played better since Cooper has been starting. Can it get better? Yes. Will it? It had better.