2023 4th round pick #122 is Jon Gaines II G

dreamcastrocks

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The most ideal scenario is:

Humphries-Hayes-Gaines-Hernandez-Johnson

The most likely:

Humphris-Johnson-Froholdt/Howerton-Hernandez-Beachum
I think Paris plays RT before he plays LG. As long as he gets on the field though, I will be happy. (as long DJ isn't the one sacrificed)
 

daves

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From Dane Brugler of The Athletic today:

Arizona Cardinals

Day 3 pick who could surprise: Jon Gaines II, G, UCLA

The Cardinals may have found two starting linemen in the draft: Johnson early, then Gaines in the middle rounds. One of the most athletic blockers in the class, Gaines’ 7.31 three-cone and 4.45 short shuttle led all offensive linemen at the combine, and those times are reflected on tape. Gaines offers the center-guard versatility to give Arizona options.
 

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Been watching more Gaines as unsurprisingly I didn't watch any of him before the draft.

I'd be surprised if he starts at center this year as there is much he needs to fix in his game.

He's a huge dude. I think he must have lost some weight for the combine to improve his testing because he looks bigger than 303lbs on film. Built in a lab for guard and his athleticism for his size is great. All the raw materials are there.

However, there is much to improve in his game. In the run game he's great in space and UCLA used him in a zone scheme that made the most of his athleticism, but once he gets to his point of attack he can be weak. He should be killing guys with his size and speed but doesn't. This was a common complaint with Cody Ford. A big guy that plays smaller than he is. When he's engaged he acts more like a wall rather than taking the guy out and gives guys a chance to get off his blocks.

His feet are good in pass pro but his hands need a lot of work. He let's guys get to his chest too easily, almost feel like he lets them then bear hugs them. Needs to get much better with his punch.

It's almost as if he plays too nice. In both pass pro and run blocking he's not aggressive enough. A very passive player with all the tools to be very good.

I didn't see any issues with him picking up stunts and his intelligence on the field was good. Always looking for work.

I can see why they chose him in the 4th. If all his issues were fixed he'd be a top 50 pick. But it's going to take some work.
 

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Been watching more Gaines as unsurprisingly I didn't watch any of him before the draft.

I'd be surprised if he starts at center this year as there is much he needs to fix in his game.

He's a huge dude. I think he must have lost some weight for the combine to improve his testing because he looks bigger than 303lbs on film. Built in a lab for guard and his athleticism for his size is great. All the raw materials are there.

However, there is much to improve in his game. In the run game he's great in space and UCLA used him in a zone scheme that made the most of his athleticism, but once he gets to his point of attack he can be weak. He should be killing guys with his size and speed but doesn't. This was a common complaint with Cody Ford. A big guy that plays smaller than he is. When he's engaged he acts more like a wall rather than taking the guy out and gives guys a chance to get off his blocks.

His feet are good in pass pro but his hands need a lot of work. He let's guys get to his chest too easily, almost feel like he lets them then bear hugs them. Needs to get much better with his punch.

It's almost as if he plays too nice. In both pass pro and run blocking he's not aggressive enough. A very passive player with all the tools to be very good.

I didn't see any issues with him picking up stunts and his intelligence on the field was good. Always looking for work.

I can see why they chose him in the 4th. If all his issues were fixed he'd be a top 50 pick. But it's going to take some work.
I saw some of the same things. What I did notice is he seemed to play better against power than speed to power. When a big guy came at him he absorbed the rush and nullified, but when a faster guy came at him fast, he'd give up the inside of his chest and get jolted.

In space, Gaines would quickly get out but would play patty cake with the guy he was blocking.

Few college lineman come into the NFL with great technique. Even Paris Johnson has some things he needs to clean up before he's really ready to start. What you look for is traits.
 

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I saw some of the same things. What I did notice is he seemed to play better against power than speed to power. When a big guy came at him he absorbed the rush and nullified, but when a faster guy came at him fast, he'd give up the inside of his chest and get jolted.

In space, Gaines would quickly get out but would play patty cake with the guy he was blocking.

Few college lineman come into the NFL with great technique. Even Paris Johnson has some things he needs to clean up before he's really ready to start. What you look for is traits.

Gaines could fix a bunch of his issues by pretending every guy he has to block just slapped his mamma. Just plays too "nice". I feel like after every play he says "Sorry about that".
 

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Been watching more Gaines as unsurprisingly I didn't watch any of him before the draft.

I'd be surprised if he starts at center this year as there is much he needs to fix in his game.

He's a huge dude. I think he must have lost some weight for the combine to improve his testing because he looks bigger than 303lbs on film. Built in a lab for guard and his athleticism for his size is great. All the raw materials are there.

However, there is much to improve in his game. In the run game he's great in space and UCLA used him in a zone scheme that made the most of his athleticism, but once he gets to his point of attack he can be weak. He should be killing guys with his size and speed but doesn't. This was a common complaint with Cody Ford. A big guy that plays smaller than he is. When he's engaged he acts more like a wall rather than taking the guy out and gives guys a chance to get off his blocks.

His feet are good in pass pro but his hands need a lot of work. He let's guys get to his chest too easily, almost feel like he lets them then bear hugs them. Needs to get much better with his punch.

It's almost as if he plays too nice. In both pass pro and run blocking he's not aggressive enough. A very passive player with all the tools to be very good.

I didn't see any issues with him picking up stunts and his intelligence on the field was good. Always looking for work.

I can see why they chose him in the 4th. If all his issues were fixed he'd be a top 50 pick. But it's going to take some work.
But you've already googled and name dropped every Center that started out as a Guard, while acting like posters couldn't understand that some players do change positions. Now you're saying Gaines is a Guard, got it :thumbup:
 

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But you've already googled and name dropped every Center that started out as a Guard, while acting like posters couldn't understand that some players do change positions. Now you're saying Gaines is a Guard, got it :thumbup:

Every time I click the "You are ignoring content by this member" button I'm reminded why. Thanks for the refresher.
 

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So was Rodney Hudson. Mitch Morse was a tackle. I could pull out multiple other examples, but you're obviously incapable of understanding that players switch positions on the OL all of the time.
Not at all - only thing I ever said was that Gaines wasn't a Center. He still isn't. Probably never will be in the NFL. You can post whatever examples but it doesn't have anything to do with the specific player we're discussing. And besides, converting Guards to Centers post college isn't some sort of common blueprint, it's a rarity. You two have been pimping Gaines as a possible Center all week and are now backtracking on said pimpage simultaneously. My understanding is not lacking, Hudsons do exist. Gaines is simply not a Hudson.
 
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Ouchie-Z-Clown

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The argument is: the kid was smart enough to get into Princeton. I don't think line protections are so complicated that a kid who was going to go to Princeton can't pick that up.
Your confusing two completely unrelated items. My high school football coach made the same mistake. He started our season populating our offensive line with smart kids (he was an algebra teacher). They weren’t very big but he thought their intelligence could overcome their lack of stature. After two games he swapped them out for the big dummies and our run game took off.

Book smart doesn’t automatically translate to other types of intelligence. Think how many book smart but street dumb people exist. Heck, look at cheese.
 

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Not at all - only thing I ever said was that Gaines wasn't a Center. He still isn't. Probably never will be in the NFL. You can post whatever examples but it doesn't have anything to do with the specific player we're discussing. And besides, converting Guards to Centers post college isn't some sort of common blueprint, it's a rarity. You two have been pimping Gaines as a possible Center all week and are now backtracking on said pimpage simultaneously. My understanding is not lacking, Hudsons do exist. Gaines is simply not a Hudson.
Well the coaching staff specifically mentioned Gaines during their presser today, so it looks like they want to try him there.
 

Krangodnzr

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Your confusing two completely unrelated items. My high school football coach made the same mistake. He started our season populating our offensive line with smart kids (he was an algebra teacher). They weren’t very big but he thought their intelligence could overcome their lack of stature. After two games he swapped them out for the big dummies and our run game took off.
But this isn't the same situation.

This is a big, agile guy who is smart. Sounds like a center to me.
Book smart doesn’t automatically translate to other types of intelligence. Think how many book smart but street dumb people exist. Heck, look at cheese.
I get it. If we were talking about a 5'10, 240 lb rocket scientist being tried at center, you would have a salient point, but that's not the case here.

Gaines scored very well on drills that are highly indicative of success, so he has a good chance of making it in the NFL. Couple that with his obvious drive and I think he can develop.
 

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Might be a dumb question but I will ask it anyway. :)

I believe Gaines performed in the top 10 or so all time at the combine- who else is in the top 10/how did they do in the NFL?
 

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Might be a dumb question but I will ask it anyway. :)

I believe Gaines performed in the top 10 or so all time at the combine- who else is in the top 10/how did they do in the NFL?

Other guys in the top 10 are,

Eric Steinbach
David Baas
Evan Mathis
Brandon Brooks
Ali Marpet
Trey Smith
Steve Hutchinson
Cole Strange
 

Stout

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John Michael Schmitz didn't hit the "cheat code" threshold btw.
lol If this cheat code were so legit, why'd he go in the 4th round? Because it's not anywhere close to a guarantee of anything.

In one way, I hate the combine, because it skews a loooot of thinking about players because "ooh, he looked great in shorts" and suddenly mediocre players are labeled sure-fire stares, and vice-versa. The physical measurement part of the combine has value really in some rule out scenarios, but even then I feel it goes overboard. I think the real value in the combine is in the interview processes and the interactions with players and other scouts and front offices.
 

Krangodnzr

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lol If this cheat code were so legit, why'd he go in the 4th round? Because it's not anywhere close to a guarantee of anything.
Look at the data for yourself. If you don't think that linemen meeting that threshold starting 85% of their games is significant, I don't know what to tell you.
In one way, I hate the combine, because it skews a loooot of thinking about players because "ooh, he looked great in shorts" and suddenly mediocre players are labeled sure-fire stares, and vice-versa. The physical measurement part of the combine has value really in some rule out scenarios, but even then I feel it goes overboard. I think the real value in the combine is in the interview processes and the interactions with players and other scouts and front offices.
Football is a complicated game and it makes evaluating players even more complicated.

From the Cardinals own comments, Jon Gaines was incredibly impressive during the interview process. He wasn't just a combine wonder, though he did post a top 10% workout.
 

football karma

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lol If this cheat code were so legit, why'd he go in the 4th round? Because it's not anywhere close to a guarantee of anything.
for the same reason On Base % wasnt selected for in MLB prior to Billy Beane?
 

Stout

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Look at the data for yourself. If you don't think that linemen meeting that threshold starting 85% of their games is significant, I don't know what to tell you.

Football is a complicated game and it makes evaluating players even more complicated.

From the Cardinals own comments, Jon Gaines was incredibly impressive during the interview process. He wasn't just a combine wonder, though he did post a top 10% workout.
I believe there can be corollary data but that bias can skew it. If not, why aren't teams using this as one of the top measures? It would seem the smart thing to do. Unless the other comment about Billy Beane plays out. I agree with how the Cards view Gaines, and I hope they're right. As I've said, none of this is a commentary on him as a player.
 
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