2023 4th round pick #122 is Jon Gaines II G

CardsFan88

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I'm going to rough quote Harry, since it seemed to go under the radar, and I think it's spot on.

Is the Card's plan really to have a center learning the position while having Murray learning how to play under center at the same time?

I mean if the plan is Caleb, great. But for Murray (and especially any of the guys until he gets back), not so good.

I was absolutely ecstatic when we got Hudson, but sadly it was a short-lived reprieve.

The plan may work in the end, but it's going to be a rocky road between here and there, and being an unconventional plan at center, less likely to work. Also, we are guessing if he even is going to get any time at center. So this might not even be the plan at all. We're so desperate for a center, we're trying to pigeonhole this guard as our future center.
 

BritCard

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Otherwise, the amount of spin trying to pimp Gaines as the center of the future here is, well, head spinning. It may just be your eternal optimism, but I knew for a fact before I ever entered this thread that you'd be all over this thread talking about Gaines as a center.I think it's you trying to see the positive in everything because maybe, if you don't, you'll go full-on dark side? I'm giving the benefit of the doubt because otherwise it's baffling how often you pick hills to die on arguing with anyone that isn't all positive all the time.

I've said nothing other than I think he will play Center and that the team likely sees him as a center convert similar to a number of other players I've named that didn't play C in college. I haven't said he's the C of the future. Anyone we drafted in this class I would be dubious about being the future C.

It's roll of the dice as any 4th round pick is.

Also, I'm not on any hill, nor have I told anyone that they aren't "positive enough". I've simply stated the above and people, like you are doing, want to fight over it.

I'll put it this way. Had we taken MJS in round 2 we would all be arguing that we neglected Edge. The only guys available when we selected Garrett were guys like Zach Harrison and YaYa Diaby, who are no better than Sanders and Thomas. So Edge in round 2 was the right call in my opinion.

In round 3 the only C available that went in that range was Ricky Stromberg who went just after Michael Wilson. I personally think Michael Wilson is a far better WR than Stromberg is a Center and that Wilson was the right pick.

But any C taken here is as much of a roll of the dice as Gaines. Stromberg isn't a year 1 starter. The Commanders have Chase Roullier there and Stromberg is going to be a backup C/G.

Jon Gaines was at 122 and the next Guard taken was at 154 so there were no reasonable C options in the 4th without reaching.

I think the only fair shout for taking a Center over who we drafted was Oluwatimi in the 5th instead of Tune. But Oluwatimi isn't a good scheme fit. He's slow (5.38) and his athletic testing is far worse than Gaines. He's more a power/gap guy. And honestly this could be said about all the C's we passed on and explain why we went with a very athletic guy like Gaines. I don't think JMS or Tippmann are ideal zone blockers either.

After that I think it's the same as above. The C's available went much later than the pick we had and I think the players we picked are better.

This is just my opinion, each to their own. I just think the reason we didn't go with another C is pretty clear when you look at how the board played out and the more pressing needs we had.

I don't think any in this class are as good as Cam Jurgens. This teams big mistake was letting the Eagles jump them for Jurgens last year (Thanks Keim).
 
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BritCard

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I'm going to rough quote Harry, since it seemed to go under the radar, and I think it's spot on.

Is the Card's plan really to have a center learning the position while having Murray learning how to play under center at the same time?

I mean if the plan is Caleb, great. But for Murray (and especially any of the guys until he gets back), not so good.

I was absolutely ecstatic when we got Hudson, but sadly it was a short-lived reprieve.

The plan may work in the end, but it's going to be a rocky road between here and there, and being an unconventional plan at center, less likely to work. Also, we are guessing if he even is going to get any time at center. So this might not even be the plan at all. We're so desperate for a center, we're trying to pigeonhole this guard as our future center.

But he isn't learning how to play the position.

He knows how to snap. He knows how to read a defense.

He needs more practice to perfect it like everyone, but it's not something he has to learn.
 

Harry

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It‘s fine to move a guy to center. The posts are correct, even guys like Pugh have done it. They were mostly guards, a couple were tackles. The concern is they were successful lineman. Hudson was a finalist for the Outland Trophy. Gaines was mediocre at best. He’s smart, but that didn’t result in great guard technique. They passed on surer things to take depth players. I just think that‘s a bad decision if you want a confident Murray under center. Gaines may see the light and eventually develop. Sadly Murray may have to pay the cost of Gaines’ learning.
 

Krangodnzr

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Gaines is good against traditional bull rushes, but struggles more on stunts and loops. He's always looking for someone to block. He was used a lot on screens and if he got his hands on someone it was over. Looks a bit awkward at times, but you can see that he's a really smart player. When he has no one to block he looks for someone to block.

Against University of Washington (2022), he played much better against #91 and #99. Both big tackles and they didn't get much push against Gaines.
 

Krangodnzr

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Anyone who focuses on OL play will understand this take: Gaines wins ugly.

His tape isn't graceful. I can see why teams would look at him as a center because he can handle power rushes fairly well and he is good at seeing loopers and picking them up.

Man I wish the Cardinals could've gotten Charbonet. I love watching that guy run.
 

BirdGangThing

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It‘s fine to move a guy to center. The posts are correct, even guys like Pugh have done it. They were mostly guards, a couple were tackles. The concern is they were successful lineman. Hudson was a finalist for the Outland Trophy. Gaines was mediocre at best. He’s smart, but that didn’t result in great guard technique. They passed on surer things to take depth players. I just think that‘s a bad decision if you want a confident Murray under center. Gaines may see the light and eventually develop. Sadly Murray may have to pay the cost of Gaines’ learning.
Word. Reality is Gaines is at this moment a Guard. And we're talking a 4th round Guard at that. I think he has a better chance making it as a Guard. Sure, we've seen Guards become Tackles, we've seen Guards become Centers, I'll bet you can even find Guards who became Tight Ends. But that obviously doesn't mean drafting Guards to fill those positions is a good blueprint because every situation is exactly that, situational. Gaines may have played a little Center - but he is not a bonafide Center. We still don't have a Center in Arizona.
 

BritCard

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It‘s fine to move a guy to center. The posts are correct, even guys like Pugh have done it. They were mostly guards, a couple were tackles. The concern is they were successful lineman. Hudson was a finalist for the Outland Trophy. Gaines was mediocre at best. He’s smart, but that didn’t result in great guard technique. They passed on surer things to take depth players. I just think that‘s a bad decision if you want a confident Murray under center. Gaines may see the light and eventually develop. Sadly Murray may have to pay the cost of Gaines’ learning.

Most the starting Centers in the league were 4th round or later draft picks. They would not have been similar quality players?

If they were great college players they wouldn't have gone that late?
 

Stout

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I don't either. Outside of JMS though, I don't think any of the other center prospects would comfortably be day one starters. And like I said, after passing on Anderson for a crazy amount of picks, the Cardinals still HAD TO add am edge guy. After round two, there wasn't any edge guys worth a damn, so they were correct on adding Ojulari when they did. The draft almost always has an opportunity cost aspect to it.

But Rome wasn't built in a day, so this is a year for patience. Next year when they have two top ten picks and they draft Marvin Harrison Jr, we will all say how worth it going through this was.
Agreed, Rome wasn't built in a day. Disagree on which position to prioritize if we're punting a year. I'd much, much rather give the center time to gel with the OL for a year. Edge is a plug and play position and you can get one next year just as easily.
 

Garthshort

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Agreed, Rome wasn't built in a day. Disagree on which position to prioritize if we're punting a year. I'd much, much rather give the center time to gel with the OL for a year. Edge is a plug and play position and you can get one next year just as easily.
First time I've read Edge and get easily in the same sentence. Don't let the rest pf the NFL in on our secret.
 

Krangodnzr

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Agreed, Rome wasn't built in a day. Disagree on which position to prioritize if we're punting a year. I'd much, much rather give the center time to gel with the OL for a year. Edge is a plug and play position and you can get one next year just as easily.
Id imagine they have a plan.

I think after this draft the Cardinals clearly for once have an adult running the organization. You don't make all those moves without having a plan.

Even that traded you hated at the end of day two was an absolute fleecing.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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But he isn't learning how to play the position.

He knows how to snap. He knows how to read a defense.

He needs more practice to perfect it like everyone, but it's not something he has to learn.
Color me skeptical that the guard was making line protection reads. He played some center, but that wasn’t his normal position.
 

Krangodnzr

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Color me skeptical that the guard was making line protection reads. He played some center, but that wasn’t his normal position.
The argument is: the kid was smart enough to get into Princeton. I don't think line protections are so complicated that a kid who was going to go to Princeton can't pick that up.
 

BritCard

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The argument is: the kid was smart enough to get into Princeton. I don't think line protections are so complicated that a kid who was going to go to Princeton can't pick that up.

Guards are doing that already anyway. They might not be calling it but they aren't just staring into space.
 

BritCard

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Another obvious one I forgot.

Ryan Jensen was a tackle in college. Never snapped a ball until the the NFL.
 

gmabel830

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Not directly related to this pick, but a guy seemingly long since forgotten by most that I still have hopes for is Marquis Hayes, who I felt was very under-drafted and basically took a redshirt last year. If say we get one quality starter and two quality backups out of Hayes, L. Smith and Gaines, I don't think the interior defense looks that bad in the long run. Hopefully one of Smith/Gaines breaks out as a center or we find one of those for the long term too, though!
 

BritCard

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Not directly related to this pick, but a guy seemingly long since forgotten by most that I still have hopes for is Marquis Hayes, who I felt was very under-drafted and basically took a redshirt last year. If say we get one quality starter and two quality backups out of Hayes, L. Smith and Gaines, I don't think the interior defense looks that bad in the long run. Hopefully one of Smith/Gaines breaks out as a center or we find one of those for the long term too, though!

Same. Hoping he takes the LG spot.
 

JCSunsfan

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Do you really want to put Murray under center when that center is trying to learn the position? Are they trying to make Murray fail?
I played center. It's not rocket science. If he can play guard he has the physical tools, and he has already played college ball so he understands blocking assignments. I just do not see how difficult the change can be, especially if he has a summer to prepare. The most difficult part would be the no-look on the shotgun, which he will be fine with if he practices over the summer and has any kind of reasonable muscle memory.
 
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