2023 4th round pick #122 is Jon Gaines II G

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I'd say it's a similar statement.

The most accurate statement is:

There was no top talent(s) (meaning no 1st round) but there was a lot of depth. Crazy that Juice Scruggs went so high, but there is often players that NFL teams like more than draftniks.

Remember that one of the aspects that was sold to us about the incoming personnel guys is that Dave Sears has a keen eye for OL talent. And the team has directly mentioned Gaines as a center, so it sounds like they want a longer look there.

The point is, if you want a center this year that's better than Froholdt you need a guy in round 1 so for us it's a bad class. In the past 10 years only 2 centres outside of round 1 have started as a rookie and been any good. Creed Humphrey, who always should have gone round 1 and Erik McCoy who was a top 50 pick.

Let's have a look at some recent examples. I'm going to use PFF so some people are just going to have to tolerate bursting into flames.

Luke Fortner - 2022 - Pick 55 - Started every game for the Jags. PFF grade of 49.6 and gave up 36 pressure which I believe led the league for centers. Only 1 sack though. Fortner the only guy from 5 centers outside round 1 to start last year at C.

Josh Myers - 2021 - Pick 62 - Shockingly taken one pick before Creed. Only played 293 snaps as a backup in 2021 with a P grade of 58.3. Creed aside no other drafted C played at C in 2021.

Lloyd Cushenberry - 2020 - Pick 83 - Started every game at C as a rookie. Allowed 4 sacks with a PFF grade of 40.5.

Tyler Biadasz - 2020 - Pick 146 - Didn't start but came in as a backup and played 4 games with a 53.5 grade. The C other center drafted didn't see any time at center.

I could go on like this through every class. It's the finding guys that started that's the problem. Nobody in 2019 outside McCoy. Most of them play Guard and never go back to center.

The point being that the odds of drafting someone of of this mediocre class, putting them in at center and them being better than Froholdt this year are frankly slim. Maybe in 3 years, but not right now.
 

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I'd say it's a similar statement.

The most accurate statement is:

There was no top talent(s) (meaning no 1st round) but there was a lot of depth. Crazy that Juice Scruggs went so high, but there is often players that NFL teams like more than draftniks.

Remember that one of the aspects that was sold to us about the incoming personnel guys is that Dave Sears has a keen eye for OL talent. And the team has directly mentioned Gaines as a center, so it sounds like they want a longer look there.
I won't argue with any of that, though my disagreements have been widely noted. I will say, even for this PSU homer, I was shocked to see Scruggs go so high. I hope our FO and coaching staff have the nous to draft then coach up a center of the future in later rounds. I unfortunately doubt it would impact this season, and feel we still don't have a player good enough to start at the position this season on the roster.
 

Stout

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The point is, if you want a center this year that's better than Froholdt you need a guy in round 1 so for us it's a bad class. In the past 10 years only 2 centres outside of round 1 have started as a rookie and been any good. Creed Humphrey, who always should have gone round 1 and Erik McCoy who was a top 50 pick.

Let's have a look at some recent examples. I'm going to use PFF so some people are just going to have to tolerate bursting into flames.

Luke Fortner - 2022 - Pick 55 - Started every game for the Jags. PFF grade of 49.6 and gave up 36 pressure which I believe led the league for centers. Only 1 sack though. Fortner the only guy from 5 centers outside round 1 to start last year at C.

Josh Myers - 2021 - Pick 62 - Shockingly taken one pick before Creed. Only played 293 snaps as a backup in 2021 with a P grade of 58.3. Creed aside no other drafted C played at C in 2021.

Lloyd Cushenberry - 2020 - Pick 83 - Started every game at C as a rookie. Allowed 4 sacks with a PFF grade of 40.5.

Tyler Biadasz - 2020 - Pick 146 - Didn't start but came in as a backup and played 4 games with a 53.5 grade. The C other center drafted didn't see any time at center.

I could go on like this through every class. It's the finding guys that started that's the problem. Nobody in 2019 outside McCoy. Most of them play Guard and never go back to center.

The point being that the odds of drafting someone of of this mediocre class, putting them in at center and them being better than Froholdt this year are frankly slim. Maybe in 3 years, but not right now.
OMG, you are doubling, tripling, quadrupling down on Froholdt. He's better than any center in this class would be this year, is your statement. WOW. I think you're alone in this opinion. Froholdt is at best JAG who we paid too much to, probably based on culture and system mentorship. That's all he is.
 

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OMG, you are doubling, tripling, quadrupling down on Froholdt. He's better than any center in this class would be this year, is your statement. WOW. I think you're alone in this opinion. Froholdt is at best JAG who we paid too much to, probably based on culture and system mentorship. That's all he is.

It's nothing to do with Froholdt. Insert any 4 year vet there.

It's about the odds based on NFL history of any center outside round 1 being good right away. Have a look yourself. It's nearly unicorn level rare.

Although I did miss one above. Corey Lindsey in 2014 had a great rookie season for the packers.

But the norm for any Day 2 center that starts as a rookie is Mason Cole level play and my feeling is that any 4 year year vet can offer more in the short term. In which case wait for a Center until next year in a class with much better top end talent.
 

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The point is, if you want a center this year that's better than Froholdt you need a guy in round 1 so for us it's a bad class. In the past 10 years only 2 centres outside of round 1 have started as a rookie and been any good. Creed Humphrey, who always should have gone round 1 and Erik McCoy who was a top 50 pick.

Let's have a look at some recent examples. I'm going to use PFF so some people are just going to have to tolerate bursting into flames.

Luke Fortner - 2022 - Pick 55 - Started every game for the Jags. PFF grade of 49.6 and gave up 36 pressure which I believe led the league for centers. Only 1 sack though. Fortner the only guy from 5 centers outside round 1 to start last year at C.

Josh Myers - 2021 - Pick 62 - Shockingly taken one pick before Creed. Only played 293 snaps as a backup in 2021 with a P grade of 58.3. Creed aside no other drafted C played at C in 2021.

Lloyd Cushenberry - 2020 - Pick 83 - Started every game at C as a rookie. Allowed 4 sacks with a PFF grade of 40.5.

Tyler Biadasz - 2020 - Pick 146 - Didn't start but came in as a backup and played 4 games with a 53.5 grade. The C other center drafted didn't see any time at center.

I could go on like this through every class. It's the finding guys that started that's the problem. Nobody in 2019 outside McCoy. Most of them play Guard and never go back to center.

The point being that the odds of drafting someone of of this mediocre class, putting them in at center and them being better than Froholdt this year are frankly slim. Maybe in 3 years, but not right now.

Remember this guy?

 

Stout

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Remember this guy?

Yep, and he hasn't been good with Pittsburgh. Many of my Stiller fan friends are wondering why he hasn't been replaced yet. Still, he gives marginal service and doesn't get his QB killed. If the rest of the line is excellent, he won't be a problem. Much, much less than I'm looking for in C play.
 

Stout

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To expand, I think C play is more important/harder to find than G play. Plop a top-notch center into the middle of the interior, and you can plug in lesser talent at G and be okay. That's a major reason I was excited because I thought need matched availability.
 

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The point is, if you want a center this year that's better than Froholdt you need a guy in round 1 so for us it's a bad class. In the past 10 years only 2 centres outside of round 1 have started as a rookie and been any good. Creed Humphrey, who always should have gone round 1 and Erik McCoy who was a top 50 pick.

Let's have a look at some recent examples. I'm going to use PFF so some people are just going to have to tolerate bursting into flames.

Luke Fortner - 2022 - Pick 55 - Started every game for the Jags. PFF grade of 49.6 and gave up 36 pressure which I believe led the league for centers. Only 1 sack though. Fortner the only guy from 5 centers outside round 1 to start last year at C.

Josh Myers - 2021 - Pick 62 - Shockingly taken one pick before Creed. Only played 293 snaps as a backup in 2021 with a P grade of 58.3. Creed aside no other drafted C played at C in 2021.

Lloyd Cushenberry - 2020 - Pick 83 - Started every game at C as a rookie. Allowed 4 sacks with a PFF grade of 40.5.

Tyler Biadasz - 2020 - Pick 146 - Didn't start but came in as a backup and played 4 games with a 53.5 grade. The C other center drafted didn't see any time at center.

I could go on like this through every class. It's the finding guys that started that's the problem. Nobody in 2019 outside McCoy. Most of them play Guard and never go back to center.

The point being that the odds of drafting someone of of this mediocre class, putting them in at center and them being better than Froholdt this year are frankly slim. Maybe in 3 years, but not right now.
I'm always skeptical of rookie OL. So many are dreadful as rookies.

Remember all of the hype for Cushenberry when the Broncos drafted him? Yeah he was literally below replacement level as a rookie. He was literally the single worst OL in the league as a rookie and he's only gotten a little bit better.

I would have  liked to draft one of the players, but if anyone thinks that guy would come in and be really good right away are fooling themselves. By the numbers, even the vaunted John Michael Dingleheimer Schmitz is likely to suck ponies next year.

If I'm the Cardinals I sign a veteran, draft a later guy (Gaines) to develop.
 

Stout

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I'm always skeptical of rookie OL. So many are dreadful as rookies.

Remember all of the hype for Cushenberry when the Broncos drafted him? Yeah he was literally below replacement level as a rookie. He was literally the single worst OL in the league as a rookie and he's only gotten a little bit better.

I would have  liked to draft one of the players, but if anyone thinks that guy would come in and be really good right away are fooling themselves. By the numbers, even the vaunted John Michael Dingleheimer Schmitz is likely to suck ponies next year.

If I'm the Cardinals I sign a veteran, draft a later guy (Gaines) to develop.
Hahaha, c'mon, him name is my name too!

I hear what you're saying. I don't think they wouldn't have been really great or anything, but they could have gotten the seasoning so that we were set up with a nails OL next season.
 

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Hahaha, c'mon, him name is my name too!

I hear what you're saying. I don't think they wouldn't have been really great or anything, but they could have gotten the seasoning so that we were set up with a nails OL next season.
Thats why I'm actually excited about Gaines. I watched a few games and I see why the Cardinals like him. But they still probably need a center.
 

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Thats why I'm actually excited about Gaines. I watched a few games and I see why the Cardinals like him. But they still probably need a center.

No reason Froholdt can't be better than a rookie this year while Gaines redshirts early in the season improving his craft. Then give Gaines 5-6 games late in the year to blood him.
 

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Because his articles get sent to my phone I know for a fact that Mitch is predicting we will move Gaines to C and Mitch thinks he'll be the starting C at some point this year. He doesn't indicate he ever saw him play he's just going off his impressive combine workout numbers.

I'm a UCLA basketball fan I don't follow the football team closely but most of the guys on the 247 football board seem to say Gaines is the classic looks better than he plays kid. The scouting reports on him online almost all have him as a backup or ST level guy. Good athlete but needs to get much stronger, has footwork and balance issues that negate much of his athleticism. The one good report that I read said if there's a kid in this draft who you would project converting to C and winding up good it's Gaines, he needs tons of coaching but most kids who change positions will, he's got the athletic ability you want at C he can move, the rest is really is he coachable and will he work hard enough to get there. But even that one wasn't expecting him to play at all as a rookie.
 

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Because his articles get sent to my phone I know for a fact that Mitch is predicting we will move Gaines to C and Mitch thinks he'll be the starting C at some point this year. He doesn't indicate he ever saw him play he's just going off his impressive combine workout numbers.

I'm a UCLA basketball fan I don't follow the football team closely but most of the guys on the 247 football board seem to say Gaines is the classic looks better than he plays kid. The scouting reports on him online almost all have him as a backup or ST level guy. Good athlete but needs to get much stronger, has footwork and balance issues that negate much of his athleticism. The one good report that I read said if there's a kid in this draft who you would project converting to C and winding up good it's Gaines, he needs tons of coaching but most kids who change positions will, he's got the athletic ability you want at C he can move, the rest is really is he coachable and will he work hard enough to get there. But even that one wasn't expecting him to play at all as a rookie.

I'd say all that is fair. You can see is athleticism but technique needs a lot of work. They say he's very smart and has a good work ethic so they are betting he can be a diamond in the rough.
 

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Yep, and he hasn't been good with Pittsburgh. Many of my Stiller fan friends are wondering why he hasn't been replaced yet. Still, he gives marginal service and doesn't get his QB killed. If the rest of the line is excellent, he won't be a problem. Much, much less than I'm looking for in C play.

Pitt thought enough of him to sign a 3-year $15m+ deal.
 

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No reason Froholdt can't be better than a rookie this year while Gaines redshirts early in the season improving his craft. Then give Gaines 5-6 games late in the year to blood him.
Yes, but there’s very little reason to believe he will be. There are many possible outcomes in the multiverse, but Froholdt’s becoming a top-25 OC is unlikely among them.
 

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Yes, but there’s very little reason to believe he will be. There are many possible outcomes in the multiverse, but Froholdt’s becoming a top-25 OC is unlikely among them.

The historical rookie performance of none first round centers is the reason why. It's nothing to do with Froholdt. You could insert Mason Cole or any other below average vet.

Rookie centers that are not high picks are bad as rookies 9 times out of 10.
 

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The historical rookie performance of none first round centers is the reason why. It's nothing to do with Froholdt. You could insert Mason Cole or any other below average vet.

Rookie centers that are not high picks are bad as rookies 9 times out of 10.
Yes. You’re continuing to make a negative argument about rookie centers because you can’t muster a positive argument for Froholdt.

There’s very little case supporting that Froholdt will be much better than a rookie. How do you square this with your regular assertion that youth must be served in a lost season?
 

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I think I'm done discussing Centers for awhile - people changing their stances like yoga - every other minute lol - not to mention we don't even have a Center
Some people feel the need to reinforce the middle of our IOL, which was so awful last year, some don't, and some feel it wasn't the right time to address it. I don't think anybody would say we're set at the position. We can certainly agree on that much.
 

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Yes. You’re continuing to make a negative argument about rookie centers because you can’t muster a positive argument for Froholdt.

There’s very little case supporting that Froholdt will be much better than a rookie. How do you square this with your regular assertion that youth must be served in a lost season?

They are two separate arguments. Personally I'm quite happy to suffer the turmoil of Jon Gaines at Center this year knowing that the odds are he will be poor, for the sake of future gaines (ba dum tiss).

The argument I am countering is that we should have drafted a rookie center earlier to better protect Kyler and that that Center would have been better than Froholdt. I'm simply saying that historically that's unlikely because most none first round rookie Centers are extremely poor.

Froholdt may also be extremely poor, but that doesn't mean a rookie would be any better at protecting Kyler.

And to be fair, I have made a positive argument for Froholdt. I've said I've watched Froholdt snaps at Center last year for the Brown's and he was fine. Other than one sack allowed in his first game against the Bucs where he was up against Vita Vea he performed pretty well and they won 3 of the 4 games he started. He also has a sizeable advantage in knowing the scheme and verbiage that a rookie center would take longer to get down.

He's for sure a better run blocker than pass protector but that's mainly because he's surprisingly athletic. Good athletic testing in both strength and agility categories shows up when you watch him which I guess is why they brought him in for the scheme they intend to run.
 

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The point is, if you want a center this year that's better than Froholdt you need a guy in round 1 so for us it's a bad class. In the past 10 years only 2 centres outside of round 1 have started as a rookie and been any good. Creed Humphrey, who always should have gone round 1 and Erik McCoy who was a top 50 pick.

Let's have a look at some recent examples. I'm going to use PFF so some people are just going to have to tolerate bursting into flames.

Luke Fortner - 2022 - Pick 55 - Started every game for the Jags. PFF grade of 49.6 and gave up 36 pressure which I believe led the league for centers. Only 1 sack though. Fortner the only guy from 5 centers outside round 1 to start last year at C.

Josh Myers - 2021 - Pick 62 - Shockingly taken one pick before Creed. Only played 293 snaps as a backup in 2021 with a P grade of 58.3. Creed aside no other drafted C played at C in 2021.

Lloyd Cushenberry - 2020 - Pick 83 - Started every game at C as a rookie. Allowed 4 sacks with a PFF grade of 40.5.

Tyler Biadasz - 2020 - Pick 146 - Didn't start but came in as a backup and played 4 games with a 53.5 grade. The C other center drafted didn't see any time at center.

I could go on like this through every class. It's the finding guys that started that's the problem. Nobody in 2019 outside McCoy. Most of them play Guard and never go back to center.

The point being that the odds of drafting someone of of this mediocre class, putting them in at center and them being better than Froholdt this year are frankly slim. Maybe in 3 years, but not right now.
This is an absurd threshold.
 
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