2021 1st round pick is Zaven Collins

Crimson Warrior

Dangerous Murray Zealot
Joined
Oct 27, 2002
Posts
7,623
Reaction score
7,447
Location
Home of the Thunder
You're contradicting yourself because you paint a bleak FA picture next year then argue the opposite here. But, not wanting to start (yet another) board-dominating argument, I'll just put a hard disagree here. My opinion is on the record many times. We'll see how it plays out.

Come on Stout. I get if your skeptical about being able to compete in 2024 but you're being a little over the top on this one.

In the NFL, which has done a great job of creating parity, one very good offseason can turn a 5-12 team into a 11-6 team.

Here's a really simple formula for success in 2024:

1. good draft (considers two top 12 picks)
2. Add a couple three mid-level starters in FA (we'll have the cap space to do so)
3. Murray plays at a high-level

I mean is the above really that far fetched? I wouldn't stake my kids life on it but I'd say there's a 66% the above will happen.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
60,904
Reaction score
53,064
Location
SoCal
FWIW, I think that Pascal and White are/will be meaningful FA acquisitions this year. Not in winning games, but I expect both to play +60% of the snaps. Maybe Froholdt, also. Those are real additions.

I've said this before, but I think Monti doesn't trust anyone in college or pro personnel right now. Bloodbath is coming in the front office. It's gonna take time for new folks to figure out this roster.
I think I’d call them “real players.” Whether they are “additive” (make us better) I think is a stretch.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
60,904
Reaction score
53,064
Location
SoCal
It was not a factor. It was THE factor.

We had the 3rd most starter snaps lost to injury in the league and if you factor in positional value probably the worst. Tell me what team is going to be good with that?

That's not to say everything was otherwise rosey, there were some obvious issues there with Kliff and Kyler, but ain't no roster of HC in the league winning with the injuries we had last year.
Disagree. This is essentially says the team wasn’t atrocious if the injuries didn’t occur. I just can’t get with that assessment.
 

Phrazbit

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Posts
19,784
Reaction score
10,645
Come on Stout. I get if your skeptical about being able to compete in 2024 but you're being a little over the top on this one.

In the NFL, which has done a great job of creating parity, one very good offseason can turn a 5-12 team into a 11-6 team.

Here's a really simple formula for success in 2024:

1. good draft (considers two top 12 picks)
2. Add a couple three mid-level starters in FA (we'll have the cap space to do so)
3. Murray plays at a high-level

I mean is the above really that far fetched? I wouldn't stake my kids life on it but I'd say there's a 66% the above will happen.

I don’t I think this rationale will hold once this team takes the field.

This isn't going to be a run of the mill bad team that bumbles their way to a 5-12 season.

We won 4 games last year and in the off season we've lost several of the best players from that squad. In free agency we made absolutely zero effort to fill those holes.

We've got big talent deficiencies at every position group. We've got dudes that wouldn't make a lot of other teams rosters at all and here they are projected starters... and not just a couple but all over the place.

Pretty much every person on our coaching staff is in a higher role than they've ever been in their career.

Our best defensive player doesn't want to be here and I wouldn't be shocked if he isn't.

Our best offensive player is projected to miss half the season and if we're 1-8 and our line can't block anyone once he gets "cleared", I don't think they will play him at all.

My guess is a 2 win season with an average margin of defeat in the high teens.
 

Stout

Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Joined
Dec 30, 2002
Posts
38,384
Reaction score
21,304
Location
Pittsburgh, PA--Enemy territory!
I don’t I think this rationale will hold once this team takes the field.

This isn't going to be a run of the mill bad team that bumbles their way to a 5-12 season.

We won 4 games last year and in the off season we've lost several of the best players from that squad. In free agency we made absolutely zero effort to fill those holes.

We've got big talent deficiencies at every position group. We've got dudes that wouldn't make a lot of other teams rosters at all and here they are projected starters... and not just a couple but all over the place.

Pretty much every person on our coaching staff is in a higher role than they've ever been in their career.

Our best defensive player doesn't want to be here and I wouldn't be shocked if he isn't.

Our best offensive player is projected to miss half the season and if we're 1-8 and our line can't block anyone once he gets "cleared", I don't think they will play him at all.

My guess is a 2 win season with an average margin of defeat in the high teens.
Sad but true.
 

Krangodnzr

Captain of Team Murray
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
35,485
Reaction score
32,273
Location
Orange County, CA
Disagree. This is essentially says the team wasn’t atrocious if the injuries didn’t occur. I just can’t get with that assessment.
Bro the Cardinals lost some players that would have played meaningful snaps. Losing your proven to be good LT and #1 for most of the year will down a lot of playoff teams. Then, when you lose guys like Hernandez AND then lose your planned backups, you're quickly playing below replacement level players at a number of positions.
 

Crimson Warrior

Dangerous Murray Zealot
Joined
Oct 27, 2002
Posts
7,623
Reaction score
7,447
Location
Home of the Thunder
Disagree. This is essentially says the team wasn’t atrocious if the injuries didn’t occur. I just can’t get with that assessment.

I know it sounds crazy pants Ouchie but I'm about 45% sure that Murray tanked it last season to get rid of K2

Going from #1 on deep throws in 2021 to dead last in deep throws in 2022? Come on... That's pretty much impossible unless he was trying to be bad.

And then there were a couple of games where on the opening drive on offense we just knifed down the field for seven, and I was thinking, "well okay, looks like we're back on track", and then we'd go into the pooper the rest of the game (like Murray shut it down after the first drive).

Is that even plausible, or does it sound like wishful thinking? (or do I sound like I'm from planet crazy town).
 
OP
OP
BullheadCardFan

BullheadCardFan

Go for it
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2005
Posts
60,424
Reaction score
23,129
Location
Bullhead City, AZ
I know it sounds crazy pants Ouchie but I'm about 45% sure that Murray tanked it last season to get rid of K2

Going from #1 on deep throws in 2021 to dead last in deep throws in 2022? Come on... That's pretty much impossible unless he was trying to be bad.

And then there were a couple of games where on the opening drive on offense we just knifed down the field for seven, and I was thinking, "well okay, looks like we're back on track", and then we'd go into the pooper the rest of the game (like Murray shut it down after the first drive).

Is that even plausible, or does it sound like wishful thinking? (or do I sound like I'm from planet crazy town).
You must be registered for see images attach
 

football karma

Happy in the pretense of knowledge
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Posts
14,941
Reaction score
13,317
Going from #1 on deep throws in 2021 to dead last in deep throws in 2022? Come on... That's pretty much impossible unless he was trying to be bad.
if its true, you have the wrong QB and need to move on

i doubt its true.

i would bet that his mechanics broke down -- maybe in part because he bulked up too much, maybe (mostly) because he didnt trust his o-line

but if there is one thing to fix on Kyler-- its the deep throws. Perplexing that not only #1 in 2021, but really good at every point in his career up to 2022.
 

HairZach

Hall of Famer
Joined
Sep 7, 2020
Posts
1,221
Reaction score
2,361
Location
VA
I know it sounds crazy pants Ouchie but I'm about 45% sure that Murray tanked it last season to get rid of K2

Going from #1 on deep throws in 2021 to dead last in deep throws in 2022? Come on... That's pretty much impossible unless he was trying to be bad.

And then there were a couple of games where on the opening drive on offense we just knifed down the field for seven, and I was thinking, "well okay, looks like we're back on track", and then we'd go into the pooper the rest of the game (like Murray shut it down after the first drive).

Is that even plausible, or does it sound like wishful thinking? (or do I sound like I'm from planet crazy town).
Thats wishful thinking. The best you can hope for is that K1 was checked out of things because he didn't like K2 and decided he wasn't going to prepare properly.
 

Crimson Warrior

Dangerous Murray Zealot
Joined
Oct 27, 2002
Posts
7,623
Reaction score
7,447
Location
Home of the Thunder
I don’t I think this rationale will hold once this team takes the field.

This isn't going to be a run of the mill bad team that bumbles their way to a 5-12 season.

We won 4 games last year and in the off season we've lost several of the best players from that squad. In free agency we made absolutely zero effort to fill those holes.

We've got big talent deficiencies at every position group. We've got dudes that wouldn't make a lot of other teams rosters at all and here they are projected starters... and not just a couple but all over the place.

Pretty much every person on our coaching staff is in a higher role than they've ever been in their career.

Our best defensive player doesn't want to be here and I wouldn't be shocked if he isn't.

Our best offensive player is projected to miss half the season and if we're 1-8 and our line can't block anyone once he gets "cleared", I don't think they will play him at all.

My guess is a 2 win season with an average margin of defeat in the high teens.

If you're right, and this year we're 2018-Cardinals-bad, then I would have to agree that it will tough to win more then seven or eight games in 2024.

But I don't think we'll be that bad Pharzbit (origin story for you name please!).

If you want to take the under on a 2.5 2023 win total we can do a sig bet. :)
 

PACardsFan

ASFN Icon
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
10,015
Reaction score
11,495
Location
York, PA
I know it sounds crazy pants Ouchie but I'm about 45% sure that Murray tanked it last season to get rid of K2

Going from #1 on deep throws in 2021 to dead last in deep throws in 2022? Come on... That's pretty much impossible unless he was trying to be bad.

And then there were a couple of games where on the opening drive on offense we just knifed down the field for seven, and I was thinking, "well okay, looks like we're back on track", and then we'd go into the pooper the rest of the game (like Murray shut it down after the first drive).

Is that even plausible, or does it sound like wishful thinking? (or do I sound like I'm from planet crazy town).
I don’t disagree with you often, but I disagree with this. I do believe that Murray was very disgusted and very disheartened, but I don’t believe he purposely tanked. Do I think he wanted KK gone? Absolutely. What happened last year was the perfect storm of franchise dysfunction. Zero discipline from top to bottom, injuries, PED suspension, player gets himself killed from speeding,
leading the league in penalties, etc, etc, etc. If you go back and watch videos from previous seasons, it seems obvious to me that Murray really missed Kirk. And when you take into account a constantly injured and porous OL, Hop’s suspension and then Hollywood missing 5-6 games right after Hop returned, Rondale never being healthy, Ertz going down, and A J Green being completely washed, it was no surprise that this offense would struggle with the long passes. Add the ineptitude of KK, VJ, SK & you have a mess of mass proportions.

Those on this board that think the 2023 team will be worse than the 2022 version may end up surprised. We have a difficult schedule, we’re missing Murray, we have a very young coaching staff, we obviously need more high end talent, and Bidwill is Bidwill. But, I believe that JG will extract the most out of this team, they will play significantly smarter than under dufus’s VJ & Kliff, and will be a team that no one will want to play later in the season. We’re not yet a playoff contender by any stretch, but that day is coming faster than people think.
 

WisconsinCard

Herfin BIg Time
Joined
Apr 1, 2003
Posts
15,492
Reaction score
6,647
Location
In A Cigar Bar Near You
I don’t I think this rationale will hold once this team takes the field.

This isn't going to be a run of the mill bad team that bumbles their way to a 5-12 season.

We won 4 games last year and in the off season we've lost several of the best players from that squad. In free agency we made absolutely zero effort to fill those holes.

We've got big talent deficiencies at every position group. We've got dudes that wouldn't make a lot of other teams rosters at all and here they are projected starters... and not just a couple but all over the place.

Pretty much every person on our coaching staff is in a higher role than they've ever been in their career.

Our best defensive player doesn't want to be here and I wouldn't be shocked if he isn't.

Our best offensive player is projected to miss half the season and if we're 1-8 and our line can't block anyone once he gets "cleared", I don't think they will play him at all.

My guess is a 2 win season with an average margin of defeat in the high teens.
Who do you believe are projected starters that would not make a lot of teams?
 

Phrazbit

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Posts
19,784
Reaction score
10,645
Who do you believe are projected starters that would not make a lot of teams?
Leki Fotu
Rashard Lawrence
Froholdt
Whomever starts at RG
Antonio Hamilton
Whomever starts at WILB/off-ball linebacker beside White

Yeah. Those guys.

2/5ths of the 0-line, 2 or 3 on the defensive front 7 and most of our corners. I'd be very surprised if we don't have the worst defense in the league and by a healthy margin.
 

Garthshort

ASFN Addict
Joined
Aug 11, 2002
Posts
9,159
Reaction score
5,136
Location
Scarsdale, NY
I wonder if a lot of you guys were 49ers fans, you probably wouldn't have liked your chances if you had to rely on a 7th round QB. And most of the time you would have been right. But not all the time.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
37,251
Reaction score
27,240
Location
Gilbert, AZ
I wonder if a lot of you guys were 49ers fans, you probably wouldn't have liked your chances if you had to rely on a 7th round QB. And most of the time you would have been right. But not all the time.
The 49ers won despite Brock Purdy, not because of him. Kyle Shanahan somehow built a QB proof offense.
 

HairZach

Hall of Famer
Joined
Sep 7, 2020
Posts
1,221
Reaction score
2,361
Location
VA
The 49ers won despite Brock Purdy, not because of him. Kyle Shanahan somehow built a QB proof offense.
Watch a couple more of their games, Purdy was a big upgrade from Jimmy G/Lance. If they don't rush him back from his UCL surgery he will be their starter for the next 12 years.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
37,251
Reaction score
27,240
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Watch a couple more of their games, Purdy was a big upgrade from Jimmy G/Lance. If they don't rush him back from his UCL surgery he will be their starter for the next 12 years.
Both those guys suck so what’s the difference? Purdy doesn’t bring anything to the table that’s above C+ quality in the NFL.

Good for him for making it almost as far as Jimmy G did in the same situation, but I wouldn’t trade for him if I were in charge of at least 25 other teams.
 

WisconsinCard

Herfin BIg Time
Joined
Apr 1, 2003
Posts
15,492
Reaction score
6,647
Location
In A Cigar Bar Near You
Yeah. Those guys.

2/5ths of the 0-line, 2 or 3 on the defensive front 7 and most of our corners. I'd be very surprised if we don't have the worst defense in the league and by a healthy margin.
I don't know what players were mentioned. First time use of the ignore button. But I can only assume what it might say. I don't even know how anyone can project the starting lineup right now??
 

Crimson Warrior

Dangerous Murray Zealot
Joined
Oct 27, 2002
Posts
7,623
Reaction score
7,447
Location
Home of the Thunder
I don’t disagree with you often, but I disagree with this. I do believe that Murray was very disgusted and very disheartened, but I don’t believe he purposely tanked. Do I think he wanted KK gone? Absolutely. What happened last year was the perfect storm of franchise dysfunction. Zero discipline from top to bottom, injuries, PED suspension, player gets himself killed from speeding,
leading the league in penalties, etc, etc, etc. If you go back and watch videos from previous seasons, it seems obvious to me that Murray really missed Kirk. And when you take into account a constantly injured and porous OL, Hop’s suspension and then Hollywood missing 5-6 games right after Hop returned, Rondale never being healthy, Ertz going down, and A J Green being completely washed, it was no surprise that this offense would struggle with the long passes. Add the ineptitude of KK, VJ, SK & you have a mess of mass proportions.

Those on this board that think the 2023 team will be worse than the 2022 version may end up surprised. We have a difficult schedule, we’re missing Murray, we have a very young coaching staff, we obviously need more high end talent, and Bidwill is Bidwill. But, I believe that JG will extract the most out of this team, they will play significantly smarter than under dufus’s VJ & Kliff, and will be a team that no one will want to play later in the season. We’re not yet a playoff contender by any stretch, but that day is coming faster than people think.
Very well said and I knew I was out on a limb with that one take PA! Also don't tell anybody but I agree with you there's a decent chance we could surprise in a good way this year.

Hope your summer has started off great and looking forward to discussing the 2023 games with you!
 

Crimson Warrior

Dangerous Murray Zealot
Joined
Oct 27, 2002
Posts
7,623
Reaction score
7,447
Location
Home of the Thunder
Leki Fotu
Rashard Lawrence
Froholdt
Whomever starts at RG
Antonio Hamilton
Whomever starts at WILB/off-ball linebacker beside White

Eh, Lawrence isn't bad, and I would assert he's an average starting DT in the NFL. But I wouldn't disagree with the rest, especially Fotu (sorry Leki!) whom I'm pretty sure is the reincarnation of Mao Tosi (plays just like him).
 

Phrazbit

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Posts
19,784
Reaction score
10,645
I don't know what players were mentioned. First time use of the ignore button. But I can only assume what it might say. I don't even know how anyone can project the starting lineup right now??

I don't really know exactly who will start, I just know that the guys who we have competing for those starting spots are dudes that have, thus far, been fringe roster guys around the league.

I don't really see the team adding anyone of note at this point. I expect any remaining additions will be more of the same, guys who've hardly seen a down outside of special teams.
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
538,929
Posts
5,282,691
Members
6,280
Latest member
alaskabustergreen
Top