Keim/Bidwill smarter than the rest of the league or complete morons?

[Cbus cardsfan]

Thinking about this off season the Cards braintrust have taken a very unique, in fact never before tried, approach to turning around the franchise. They must think they know something others don't or, they've become complete morons. Either way, they are flying in face of convention.

Has a NFL team ever hired a college coach that's had a losing record, when his predecessor was very successful, and was just fired from his alma mater? Throw in the fact that he's never coached a down in the NFL prior to being hired. I can't think of any. I can think of highly successful coaches like Nick Saban, Lou Holtz, Bud Wilkinson, and Steve Spurrier to name a few that failed miserably in the NFL. There are some college coaches that have moved to the NFL and been successful but they were also very successful, winning coaches in college.

Will KK's air raid be successful? Steve Spurrier's fun 'n gun was a bust. The run and shoot had moments but never won a Super Bowl and went to the wayside. What makes one think the "Air Raid" is any different?

Other than blind faith or hoping for the sake of hoping, why do people think KK will be a success? Not trolling but wanting legit reasons to think he'll make it. Is it based on McVay's success? McVay was a coordinator and had NFL coaching experience.

Now to the QB:
Cards were the only team that would have taken him #1.
They drafted the shortest first round QB ever with likely the shortest arms ever.
Other than Russell Wilson, who was handed a great running game ne of the all time defenses, no short, mobile QB has ever had success running a NFL offense. That still makes RW in the about .1 percentile for success at his size(note that he's still bigger). That's a lot of QB stats not favoring Murray.
The Cards are the 1st team to ever take QB's as back to back top 10 picks.
The Card are the first team to trade a top 10 QB one year after he was selected.

Why are people ok with this when it's NEVER been done? And,many people are happy about it. I hope the people are right.

To me it seems the Cards are going all in on a hold 'em game with 2 outs to hit on the river. Sure, they may get lucky and be "smarter than everyone else" but the odds sure seem to be stacked against them.

I just don't see it. I know I'll get accused of being negative but that's not the case. I hope I'm wrong but look at everything and the facts show there's a lot more to concerned about than to expect success.

And no Dvontel and Krang, to save you the time, this has nothing to do with Haskins.

 

[Heucrazy]

No way to know answers to any of that until the games have been played.

 

[b8rtm8nn]

Technically, Keim and Bidwill can be both morons AND smarter than the rest of the league.

 

[Shane]

Good post and all legit questions. History tells us this is going to be a colossal failure. But I’m sure rooting for the other side of the coin. My heart tells me this is going to be a disaster...

I sure hope you and I are wrong.

 

[BurqueCardFan]

Morons.
I hope I'm wrong for the sake of the team but I have been saying this all along. Some people were saying that Keim was trying to pull some elaborate smokescreen, in which Josh Rosen was privy to the plan. I said all along that Keim was too dumb to pull something like that off. In the end, the only person they fooled was themselves. They planned on taking Murray all along and thus should have tried to trade Rosen prior to the draft while he still had some value.
Those with rose colored glasses that are hoping that Murray is the one exception to all the many, many red flags that have been discussed, should be prepared.
All of us as fans hope it works out but logic and common sense point in another direction.

 

[b8rtm8nn]

I have heard too many coaches say that Kingsbury knows and can communicate what we wants, again on the post about Sullivan.

Risky, but KK seems to have a good toolset for the NFL, unlike a Chip Kelly personality.

 

[Reddog]

Thinking about this off season the Cards braintrust have taken a very unique, in fact never before tried, approach to turning around the franchise. They must think they know something others don't or, they've become complete morons. Either way, they are flying in face of convention.

Has a NFL team ever hired a college coach that's had a losing record, when his predecessor was very successful, and was just fired from his alma mater? Throw in the fact that he's never coached a down in the NFL prior to being hired. I can't think of any. I can think of highly successful coaches like Nick Saban, Lou Holtz, Bud Wilkinson, and Steve Spurrier to name a few that failed miserably in the NFL. There are some college coaches that have moved to the NFL and been successful but they were also very successful, winning coaches in college.

.

Add to this the fact that the GM built the rest of the staff and the HC was down with it.

 

[Zeno]

Only time will tell. Even if it ends up being a disaster it should be an entertaining disaster.

 

[MadCardDisease]

The only thing that might be in favor of KK new offense is the recent rule changes that favor the offense.

I'm not sure Kyler Murray would have survived a game if he played 30 years ago when it was OK to level a QB 5 seconds after they got rid of the ball. These days QBs are protected like an endangered species (which in essence they are). QBs now are allowed to throw the ball away and it won't result in an intentional grounding penalty. You can no longer target a QB after they throw an INT. Remember the days when a big nasty Defensive lineman went straight to "Block" a QB and completely leveled them.

Not to long ago enforcer Safeties would patrol the middle of the field taking heads off of little WRs who dared entering their domain. Now it's a 15 yard penalty with massive fines included.

Rules like no contact 5 yards past the line of scrimmage are actually being enforced now making it more difficult for DB to latch onto WRs.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Technically, Keim and Bidwill can be both morons AND smarter than the rest of the league.

This.

Tactically, they are making a bet on the new direction of the league. More offense, less contact, Officiating penalizing defense more often, and rules changes all designed to promote high scores and entertaining games.

Kyler is in the .01% in many aspects. Some good, some not so good. And while I do respect the mostly negative historical headwinds they are fighting, I can't help but be excited at the boldness of the plan.

Will it work? Who the hell can know for sure.



As for Keim, I truly think he bungled many things over the past 24 months. He deserves to be called out on that, but hiring KK is not one of them. Drafting Kyler could be one of them. The handling of Rosen surely is one of them.

Hiring a Chip Kelly, or a Spurrier, or an Erickson, or a Johnson, or a Switzer takes guts when they haven't coached an NFL down. Some will work and some will not.

But I have to admire the attempt to swing for the fences.

McVay at his age was a swing.
So was Tomlin, and John Harbaugh in their own way.
So were all of the coaches I mentioned above.

We all just need to chill out and let their plan play out at this point. Because again, none of us really know enough to make any sort of substantive point about anything.

I.E. We are all postulating like Skip Bayless or Stephen A most of the time. Some more dramatically than others.

 

[Ronin]

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/e989f326-1c54-4104-b89a-60f46b8ec12a#HJNxOT8f9iV.copy

 

[daves]

Cards were the only team that would have taken him #1.

Perhaps. And there are hints that they explored a trade down with the Raiders. But for you and those who have claimed that Murray wasn't even the #1 QB on any other team's list, this article strongly refutes that. (The premise of the article is that many other teams screwed up by not trading a 2nd for Rosen, but the salient point in this context is that LaCanfora asked five "evaluators I know and trust who work for teams that were not in the rookie QB market" where they would've ranked Rosen among this year's crop of rookies. Three of the 5 had Murray #1, Rosen #2, and two had Rosen before Murray. All 5 had Murray ahead of all other QBs in this class. And note that this ranking was "based on their draft grades from last year and this year" - i.e. Rosen was ranked based on his draft grade last year, NOT factoring in his performance with the Cardinals.

As for all of the people who keep describing Kingsbury as a "failed college coach" - you all know as well as everyone else here that Kingsbury was brought in for his offensive genius - something which many NFL teams including the Patriots and Rams had tried to tap into. Joseph is here to run the D, and the entire coaching staff is loaded with experienced, successful NFL coaches. Will it work? Who knows. But Kingsbury has plenty of support to help with transitioning to the NFL and running the D.

As for the "gimmick system" - see above and read all about the NFL coaches including Belichick who have tried picking Kingsbury's brain. Clements was also brought in to help Kingsbury adapt his ideas to the NFL. Again, it remains to be see whether it works, but to portray it as though Kingsbury is an incompetent college coach who's going to naively try to run his offense in the NFL is beyond gross oversimplification - it completely mischaracterizes the team's plan.

As many have noted... they're going all-in and swinging for the fences. It may not work, but it's not a hare-brained idea that hasn't been well thought out. They're providing all the support in terms of coaching and players that they can to give the experiment the best chance of working. After completely crapping the bed in 2018, they had to make some radical changes. I'm glad they did and excited to see the results. If it fails... then they clean house and start over.

...dave

 

[Krangodnzr]

Haskins.

73 QB Rating under pressure.

 

[Krangodnzr]

People calling Kingsbury a failed college coach are myopic.

His responsibilities as a pro coach are way more limited, and it's obviously limited to what he does well, coach offensive football.

It's meant to slur/belittle the hiring.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Morons.
I hope I'm wrong for the sake of the team but I have been saying this all along. Some people were saying that Keim was trying to pull some elaborate smokescreen, in which Josh Rosen was privy to the plan. I said all along that Keim was too dumb to pull something like that off. In the end, the only person they fooled was themselves. They planned on taking Murray all along and thus should have tried to trade Rosen prior to the draft while he still had some value.
Those with rose colored glasses that are hoping that Murray is the one exception to all the many, many red flags that have been discussed, should be prepared.
All of us as fans hope it works out but logic and common sense point in another direction.

According to numerous sources, the Cardinals were still talking to Bosa and Q William's hours before the draft.

Why would you trade Josh Rosen if you didn't have his replacement in hand? And that destroys your trade down leverage as well.

People criticizing Keim for this arent thinking logically about all the secondary and tertiary effects of trading Rosen before drafting Murray. What happens if you traded Rosen and then Murray pulled an Eli? That would make trading Rosen the most idiotic move ever. Or if Murray wouldnt agree to a baseball clause in his contract?

At the end of the day, Rosen was a sunk cost and the team got a good enough asset in return for him.

 

[DVontel]

Haskins.

73 QB Rating under pressure.

lol
https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/threads/crazy-stupid-idea-that-will-never-happen.289927/

 

[JeffGollin]

Finally caught up with PFF's analysis of Murray.

As with all other players - real-McCoy or bogus - I took the PFF write-up with a grain of salt (1) because I don't know as much as most experts and (2) because "luck" has a great deal to do with how a player will turn out.

Conclusions:

- A vast majority of scouting reports describe Murray as having special football talents.

- Tapes seem to suggest that when a play is there to be made, he makes it.

- He has "gun-fighter's eyes.

- While not a certainty, Murray is capable of turning around an offense.

Net-Net: While not a "definite", the likelihood of Murray turning a season around is definitely a "possible."

If you were Michael B and you owned a team...and - because of the competitive nature of the NFC-West, your team faced a decade's worth of "rebuilding"...and a golden opportunity fell into your lap in the form of a #1 draft pick, an innovative young coach and a high-risk/ high reward QB ...would you you play it safe and rebuild your team "old school" block by block?

Or would you swing for the fences in the hope of saving 10 years of "re-tooling?"

Anyone who says they know the answer to that question is lying.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Thread is closed. Please use the All things Kyler Murray thread

 

[MadCardDisease]

Thread is open since this is more than Murray

 

[Southpaw]

Add to this the fact that the GM built the rest of the staff and the HC was down with it.

Did he have a choice?

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Haskins.

73 QB Rating under pressure.

I tried to respond in the other thread where it was relevant but it had been closed.

Guess what the average NFlL passer rating is when pressured? 73

Guess who was last, at least through 10 weeks, when blitzed last year at 59.6? Some guy named Brady and not Brady Quinn.

Try again.

 

[PACardsFan]

Good post and all legit questions. History tells us this is going to be a colossal failure. But I’m sure rooting for the other side of the coin. My heart tells me this is going to be a disaster...

I sure hope you and I are wrong.

If your heart is telling you that this is going to be a disaster, then technically you're rooting against the Cardinals to succeed. Since you've already indicated that you are rooting for success (the other side of the coin), then it's your brain that is telling you that this will be a disaster. I've learned that when in doubt, trust your brain over your heart. But you're a Cardinal fan, and our brains and hearts are dysfunctional. So bottom line, we'll have to wait and see. Don't worry, this makes perfect sense

 

[Dback Jon]

Only time will tell. Even if it ends up being a disaster it should be an entertaining disaster.

Agreed - Either Keim and KK are gone in a couple years, or they will change the game. I don't see a lot of in between.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Agreed - Either Keim and KK are gone in a couple years, or they will change the game. I don't see a lot of in between.

Technically the game is already changing and the Cards are just playing catch up. At least that is how it sounds to me with the whole wanting to get the next Sean McVay / Patrick Mahomes, etc.

 

[kerouac9]

People calling Kingsbury a failed college coach are myopic.

His responsibilities as a pro coach are way more limited, and it's obviously limited to what he does well, coach offensive football.

It's meant to slur/belittle the hiring.

But they're not inaccurate. It's impossible to say that he was a "successful" college coach. He was fired by a second-tier Big 12 program and was eventually hired as a coordinator at USC.

He had Baker Mayfield and Patrick Mahomes and somehow couldn't make it work.

I like Kliff and obviously hope that he does well, but calling him what he is isn't wrong just because it makes you feel bad.