OT: Kyler Murray Debacle Thread

[Crimson Warrior]

This is a video I found pretty damned interesting. Kurt Warner does a long breakdown of what he saw as issues on many plays from Thursday night.

He mentions that Kyler doesn't get good reads because his read player on defense isn't being forced to move on multiple plays, slow developing plays, lack of hot routes and happy feet. That's on the receivers, play concept, and of course Kyler himself. Makes me think we may jettison petzing or more likely the wr coach before Murray gets "one last season" (is there an echo here?) to get right.

This video makes me wish Warner was open to a coaching or consulting role with the team. But I'm sure he.doesn't want to pull NFL coach style hours.

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Mandatory viewing if you want to better understand what's happening with our passing game.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

I disagreed with this because I'm pretty sure you were out on him at the end of last season.

Out on who? Kyler?

Never! I'm going down with the ship WC.

But I did acknowledge that K1 failed us in the most critical situations last year.

I mean, maybe it wasn't all on him, but towards the end of last year his stats in late game, clutch situations were horrifying. They couldn't have been worse.

And that pattern certainly goes back all the way to 2020. Bottom line is that, despite several opportunities, K1 has not won a playoff-spot clinching game in his pro career. Also, I think his record in December is pretty bad. Maybe really bad.

I remember you and I even talked about it a little bit. I asked you if you thought a pro athlete could work to get better in clutch situations.

The talent is still there. He still has a pretty live arm, and wheels are still good enough to make teams pay dearly.

But if he is ever, ever going to realize his full potential, he's got to be able to slow the game down some in pressure situations.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

lmao what did you guys get into before Kyler Murray??

I respect your commitment but I’d say almost any QB on any roster can roast a defense given time/facing a bad defense. The rams had no weapons that game and an offense that looked very similar to ours that first game Murray layed up on them. Murray is good enough to win against bad teams like Miami, bears, jets etc.

I want us to be better and I’m just not convinced I see it in his game to bring us to a playoff level - so like you said there has not been enough these past couple years to deserve a pass and an 8th chance in my point of view and on the bandwagon.

we do face the titans next week though and I’m sure Murray will have a lights out game against a terrible team and the majority of this board will swing back on your side praising his glories. Such is the way of most nfl fans

The last big blowup was, coincidentally I guess, over when Rosen should have replaced Slinging Sammy Bradford in the starting line up. But neither of us are bad guys, we just get under each others skin super easy.

Anyways... I totally, totally get the frustration with K1, and understand why people are ready to make a change.

When we drafted Murray, I was so sure he would lead us to a superbowl win. So incredibly gifted with arm talent and elite mobility. Accurate. Decisive.

Now... some flaws in his game have been revealed, and I'm not so sure. And Kyler is good guy, but is not really charismatic, like for example, is Mayfield or Mahomes.

The unthinkable, that he might not sign a third contract with us, is now a distinct possibility.

But, I still believe in his talent, and in his desire to win. I think he's hardworking and fairly intelligent.

But he's got to get out of his own way a little bit, and when the pressure is greatest, he's got to slow things down a little, and find a way to make the big play. He did fine Sunday in the clutch. Maybe that was a step in the right direction.

Like you said, let's see how 2025 plays out Georgia. Still a lot of games left. I'm sure some things will change between now and late December.

Hope you're otherwise having a great weekend!

 

[DaHilg]

You know what Cheese? I've been thinking about it, and I'm not ready to concede that K1 cannot be great for us. Here's why:

1. The consensus on the board is that our o-line is below average (despite random charts showing that our pass is best in the league or whatever). Maybe our pass protection is average, but overall the line is below average. Everyone agrees.

2. The consensus is that our WR1 has performed below average through four games this year. Not really open for debate.

3. That our OC is effective is questionable. This is not just from the board, but outside sources as well.

4. If not for Murray's running we we would probably be last in the league in rushing.

5. Kyler appropriately leverages the one truly good offensive asset we have BPT.

Now I'm definitely not saying Murray is playing great.

But given the above, how can we effectively and objectively evaluate Murray's 2025 performance?

I'm really trying to be reasonable here. But how? Bad oline. Bad WR1. Bad running game. And questionable OC? What QB would not struggle under those circumstances Cheese? Seriously man?

If you want to point to his intangibles, okay, fine. That's fair. I'm not crazy about how he carries himself during games, but keep in mind we see about three hours of his demeanor out of 168 hours every week. We don't really know what his relationships are like with the other players.

And here's another thing. Like 602 posted, league wide, offensive production is down, like significantly.

So given all of these data points, I personally do not think it's fair to say definitively that Murray is not the answer.

I'm not saying he is the answer.

But what I'm am saying is that, to give him a fair shake, we need to upgrade the talent around him at least a little. At least a little Cheese.

Join me on the K1 bandwagon man. Come on. It's fun!

Too many facts.. this is going to hurt people’s brains

 

[DaHilg]

The last big blowup was, coincidentally I guess, over when Rosen should have replaced Slinging Sammy Bradford in the starting line up. But neither of us are bad guys, we just get under each others skin super easy.

Anyways... I totally, totally get the frustration with K1, and understand why people are ready to make a change.

When we drafted Murray, I was so sure he would lead us to a superbowl win. So incredibly gifted with arm talent and elite mobility. Accurate. Decisive.

Now... some flaws in his game have been revealed, and I'm not so sure. And Kyler is good guy, but is not really charismatic, like for example, is Mayfield or Mahomes.

The unthinkable, that he might not sign a third contract with us, is now a distinct possibility.

But, I still believe in his talent, and in his desire to win. I think he's hardworking and fairly intelligent.

But he's got to get out of his own way a little bit, and when the pressure is greatest, he's got to slow things down a little, and find a way to make the big play. He did fine Sunday in the clutch. Maybe that was a step in the right direction.

Like you said, let's see how 2025 plays out Georgia. Still a lot of games left. I'm sure some things will change between now and late December.

Hope you're otherwise having a great weekend!

Be careful these posts are too reasonable.. income ALL 22 review of them!

 

[DaHilg]

We're not criticising Kyler because we're not winning or even because the offense is bad. We're criticising him because Kyler has an individual has been horrible.

This O line is not average, it's top 10 in pass pro. If not higher. It was Kliff, so we changed, and now it's Drew. It was the O line, it's much better, and still it's not enough. He needed a good defence, we have one, still not enough. It's WR, we draft one of the best in a decade, still not enough.

If these things are still not enough, have you considered Kyler is the issue?

I really want to know the real story of you and Kyler.. I imagine it involves some explicit letters and pictures that you sent him that doesn’t get responded to. It’s wild, I’ve never seen a hatred for a person for the way you hate Kyler.

 

[Stout]

Stout, man, the only thing I'm trying to say this week is that the way other guys around him are performing (including DP), that it's very challenging to accurately assess how well he's playing, and that he's not really in a position to be successful.

If you disagree, that's fine, then let's just move on to the TEN game.

You said you believe he still has greatness in him but don't want to hear comparisons to great QBs.

 

[Russ Smith]

Mandatory viewing if you want to better understand what's happening with our passing game.

The first one was the one that really made me mad in the actual game I think that's the first drive of the game. In the game thread I said WR's need to step up and make a play and people were saying bad throw etc. If you watch the replay Kurt makes it clear, first Wilson should have adjusted the route because of the blitz and didn't. But then he should have adjusted his route across instead of continuing to run deeper because Kyler had to bail right because of the overload blitz so by running deeper he caused a longer throw that fell just incomplete.He should be at worst running straight across and actually should be coming back not going away

 

[Russ Smith]

Mandatory viewing if you want to better understand what's happening with our passing game.

Yeah Kurt repeatedly is talking about how guys "gotta get there faster". Says it about Marv multiple times, even says I know he's fast but he's not playing fast. He calls out Benson a couple of times, once for not clearing out downfield fast enough so the under is open, another for not getting out quick enough as the outlet valve. But over and over he's calling out Marv didn't get there quick enough, Dortch didn't run the route correctly. Multiple times talks about how the Wr's are too close together or "stacked" so one DB can cover both of them.

The other thing is for the people that keep saying Kyler only throws to McBride, if you watch this video over and over Kurt is saying, this is the guy we want to get open, Trey, this is the guy we want in this matchup, Trey, he says it 4 or 5 times in this video alone. He's not saying it because he has Trey on his fantasy team he's saying it because that's the design of the play.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Yeah Kurt repeatedly is talking about how guys "gotta get there faster". Says it about Marv multiple times, even says I know he's fast but he's not playing fast. He calls out Benson a couple of times, once for not clearing out downfield fast enough so the under is open, another for not getting out quick enough as the outlet valve. But over and over he's calling out Marv didn't get there quick enough, Dortch didn't run the route correctly. Multiple times talks about how the Wr's are too close together or "stacked" so one DB can cover both of them.

The other thing is for the people that keep saying Kyler only throws to McBride, if you watch this video over and over Kurt is saying, this is the guy we want to get open, Trey, this is the guy we want in this matchup, Trey, he says it 4 or 5 times in this video alone. He's not saying it because he has Trey on his fantasy team he's saying it because that's the design of the play.

Marv runs routes at half speed, so I'm glad he's being called out for it.

 

[Russ Smith]

Marv runs routes at half speed, so I'm glad he's being called out for it.

What Kurt was saying is he doesn't know if it's that Marv is still thinking too much, if he doesn't understand the full route concept, or what but yeah multiple times he said Marv has to be there and he's not moving fast enough. he called out Dortch on it once too and Wilson.

It's long but man really interesting to watch. Kurt explains in so much detail why it all matters, if one guy doesn't do his job it impacts the entire play. There's a play where Kyler throws left and it's batted down, Kurt says that's because the WR on that side, think i twas Weaver, didn't run his route correctly so his man had to go with him and because Benson was late just taking off down the sideline to clear it out. So he said by the time Kyler peeks there it's obvious the guy he wants, McBride, is not going to be open because the 2 clearout routes weren't run correctly, so he throws left where he's been looking teh whole time and the DL times it and bats it down. His point is yes Kyler stared down left but he did it in part because the 2 guys on the right side ran their routes incorrectly so he peeked and then went right back left.

Too bad Kurt has no interest he'd be a great QB mentor for Kyler and overall his input would help the whole offense

 

[BullheadCardFan]

Sounds like we need a new wide receiver coach

 

[Russ Smith]

2 other things the first is me not Kurt but Kyler doesn't sell his fakes on play action nearly as well as I see other QB's do every week? There's one play Kurt shows over and over with a fake to Benson it's a play action and he ends up throwing the ball to Benson in the flat for a first down. But Kurt is saying it's a play where there MIGHT have been a shot to get the ball deep middle over the safeties to Marv. Tough throw but might be possible. But the fake handoff to Benson was so weak you can see not one single defender bought it. If he makes a better fake it may be that safety who prevented him from taking the shot to Marv, might take a step up allinwing you to then go over the top later to Marv.

The second one is Kurt pointing out how the connection between Kyler and McBride is so good. He's pretty clear it's not just that Kyler trusts him and nobody else it's that there's a reason he trusts McBride so much, that he's always where he's supposed to be

 

[Crimson Warrior]

You said you believe he still has greatness in him but don't want to hear comparisons to great QBs.

It's true I do still think he has greatness in him. Absolutely. 100%.

But when you guys point to whatever QB happens to be on a heater, like Allen currently, Herbert last week, Daniels last season, Lamar Jackson sometimes, and say "this is how Murray should play for us consistently" I just don't think is very realistic or fair.

 

[slanidrac16]

It's true I do still think he has greatness in him. Absolutely. 100%.

But when you guys point to whatever QB happens to be on a heater, like Allen currently, Herbert last week, Daniels last season, Lamar Jackson sometimes, and say "this is how Murray should play for us consistently" I just don't think is very fair.

Kyler is too inconsistent to be great.

 

[urs]

I always take BritCard, or fans’ analysis of All-22, with a grain of salt because if every QB had our mind, every QB in the league would be throwing for 400+ yards every week.

Yes, most of us don't know the routes or the playcalls, Brit is consistently wrong.

 

[Russ Smith]

last comment on that video and man it reminds me of why Kurt was so great for the Rams and then us. On the TD pass to marv he says great catch, really good throw good stuff, BUT. And then again he calls Marv out, the play is a corner route, but Marv's release is inside not outside, so the guy on him is outside of him not even or inside of him. That makes the throw SIGNIFICANTLY harder, Kyler has to throw it where he does and let Marv Highpoint it because he can't fade the ball to the corner easily because that's where the DB is. If Marv had released correctly, that corner throw is much easier the safety can't get there. If Marv does release inside but makes a SUDDEN break to the outside he still might regain the leverage, but he doesn't. So it ends up a TD but a much harder TD than it should have been if marv ran the route correctly.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

The first one was the one that really made me mad in the actual game I think that's the first drive of the game. In the game thread I said WR's need to step up and make a play and people were saying bad throw etc. If you watch the replay Kurt makes it clear, first Wilson should have adjusted the route because of the blitz and didn't. But then he should have adjusted his route across instead of continuing to run deeper because Kyler had to bail right because of the overload blitz so by running deeper he caused a longer throw that fell just incomplete.He should be at worst running straight across and actually should be coming back not going away

No kidding man. Our unquestioned WR2, who's spot was not even competed for this offseason, did everything wrong that he possibly could have on that play.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Also, these great QBs still need great players to thrive.

Lamar has Derrick Henry.
Allen has James Cook & a fantastic OLine.

Mahomes hasn’t been peak Mahomes because Rice is a jackass & Kelce is over the hill.

Lamar and Allen were pretty damn good and successful before they had Henry and cook.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This is interesting considering Burrow & Njoku never played football together.
.

lol. I was wondering wth I was reading!

 

[daves]

Can any of the film junkies break down how the Cardinals managed to score 14 points in 4th? What changed? No huddle? More shotgun? No dink and dunk?

Not a film junkie, but it seemed to me that Murray stopped settling for checkdowns after his first read, and started more aggressively pushing the ball downfield... as most of us wish he would do from the opening gun of every game.

 

[DVontel]

Lamar and Allen were pretty damn good and successful before they had Henry and cook.

Allen once also had Diggs.
Lamar once also had a great OLine.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Allen once also had Diggs.
Lamar once also had a great OLine.

Yeah diggs was very good. But last year Allen was great and cook was okay. Certainly not a stud. 1,000 yards. Just lots of TDs.

But that said, I don’t disagree with you. Every QB needs SOMETHING good with him.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yeah diggs was very good. But last year Allen was great and cook was okay. Certainly not a stud. 1,000 yards. Just lots of TDs.

But that said, I don’t disagree with you. Every QB needs SOMETHING good with him.

Kyler had one of the best rushing attacks in football and a great TE last year. The idea that he had didn’t have much last year is bunk. Also, back in 2020, he had a healthy Nuk and a great running game. Didn’t keep him from his usual self-immolation routine down the stretch there either.

 

[DVontel]

Kyler had one of the best rushing attacks in football and a great TE last year. The idea that he had didn’t have much last year is bunk. Also, back in 2020, he had a healthy Nuk and a great running game. Didn’t keep him from his usual self-immolation routine down the stretch there either.

Did you even follow the conversation?