So What’s Wrong With Kyler Murray?

[SoonerLou]

Sheesh if it was only that black & white.

Tua was better in high school, went to a far bigger college, was better in college, & was drafted higher than Herbert, and we’re supposed to believe he isn’t as talented as Herbert?

Baker was better in high school, went to a far bigger college, was better in college, & was drafted higher than Allen, and we’re supposed to believe he isn’t as talented as Allen?

Kyler does NOT have the arm-strength Mahomes has nor can he throw from pretty much any platform Mahomes can. That’s obvious.

The big difference is that while he’s not there mentally, he’s also not as talented/gifted with his arm than Mahomes. Only two young QBs are & that is Herbert & Allen. Lets not lie & pretend that he was ever gifted with his arm as much as Mahomes. Where he played at in High School & College is completely irrelevant. Completely.

People talk about me being so pro Kyler I dont see any faults when I created this thread.

Watched every snap in college. The ball dies when he's rolling out. Doesnt generate juice.

Its why a guy so athletic doesnt have have that many rollouts or scramble plays to find wrs.

Can you recall a time he created something in and out of the pocket and just ripped it for a first down? I'm not sure.

Kyler's inability to throw on the run is a real issue

Watched every snap in college. The ball dies when he's rolling out. Doesnt generate juice. Its why a guy so athletic doesnt have have that many rollouts or scramble plays to find wrs. Can you recall a time he created something in and out of the pocket and just ripped it for a first down? I'm...

www.arizonasportsfans.com

I gotta be honest I think Herbert and Allen's arm's are beyond Mahomes. Mahomes is more gifted sure. However, they make throws from the pocket Im not sure even Mahomes can make in terms of pure arm strength.

 

[DVontel]

People talk about me being so pro Kyler I dont see any faults when I created this thread.

Kyler's inability to throw on the run is a real issue

Watched every snap in college. The ball dies when he's rolling out. Doesnt generate juice. Its why a guy so athletic doesnt have have that many rollouts or scramble plays to find wrs. Can you recall a time he created something in and out of the pocket and just ripped it for a first down? I'm...

www.arizonasportsfans.com

I gotta be honest I think Herbert and Allen's arm's are beyond Mahomes. Mahomes is more gifted sure. However, they make throws from the pocket Im not sure even Mahomes can make in terms of pure arm strength.

Good thread. It’s okay to lay blame on other spots while also laying blame on Kyler. It’s somehow gotta be one way or the other.


Allen is in a tier in his own. I don’t think Mahomes or even Herbert can make some throws that Allen can at his peak.

 

[BritCard]

Sheesh if it was only that black & white.

Tua was better in high school, went to a far bigger college, was better in college, & was drafted higher than Herbert, and we’re supposed to believe he isn’t as talented as Herbert?

Baker was better in high school, went to a far bigger college, was better in college, & was drafted higher than Allen, and we’re supposed to believe he isn’t as talented as Allen?

Kyler does NOT have the arm-strength Mahomes has nor can he throw from pretty much any platform Mahomes can. That’s obvious.

The big difference is that while he’s not there mentally, he’s also not as talented/gifted with his arm than Mahomes. Only two young QBs are & that is Herbert & Allen. Lets not lie & pretend that he was ever gifted with his arm as much as Mahomes. Where he played at in High School & College is completely irrelevant. Completely.

I disagree. All those guys you mention, the ones who are good, the ones who are not have the physical talent to be great. Maybe not the off platform talent of Mahomes but they were drafted where they were because they had the physical talent to justify it.

The difference between the Mahomes, Brady's, Rodger's, Allen's, Watson's etc of the league and the rest is those guys are much better at the mental aspects of the game. Some of it is innate but a lot of it it learnt. From rep after rep, hour after hour of grinding tape and studying defenses so it's already there.

The only computer Carson Palmer touched was the one running Virtual Reality defenses for him to study. Not COD. And he was doing that at 38 with 17 years in the league behind him.

I know there are those here that can't help but defend Kyler but for me he just doesn't put the work in to be great. We have heard these whispers before from people around the team like Gambo, there have been several threads over the years and now Kyler basically said "I don't need to study much. I like to rely on my natural talent". Add in all the COD streaming during the season and it's pretty clear he isn't doing what is required to be as good as those guys. He has the talent to be, we saw that through the first 7-8 games.

I'm always going to be the guy that thinks if you are a QB getting paid the big bucks and you have 2 hours to stream COD on Twitch you have 2 hours to study film. If playing COD is more appealing you either don't care enough or you're too arrogant. Play COD all you like in the off season.

 

[BritCard]

People talk about me being so pro Kyler I dont see any faults when I created this thread.

Kyler's inability to throw on the run is a real issue

Watched every snap in college. The ball dies when he's rolling out. Doesnt generate juice. Its why a guy so athletic doesnt have have that many rollouts or scramble plays to find wrs. Can you recall a time he created something in and out of the pocket and just ripped it for a first down? I'm...

www.arizonasportsfans.com

I gotta be honest I think Herbert and Allen's arm's are beyond Mahomes. Mahomes is more gifted sure. However, they make throws from the pocket Im not sure even Mahomes can make in terms of pure arm strength.

He threw the Hail Murray on the run. He threw the TD to Moore on the run vs the Vikings earlier in the season.

He can do it, although he doesn't do it enough to really judge how good he is. There should be far, far more of it.

As for this

"I think I was blessed with the cognitive skills to just go out there and just see it before it happens,” Murray said. “I’m not one of those guys that’s going to sit there and kill myself watching film. I don’t sit there for 24 hours and break down this team and that team and watch every game because, in my head, I see so much.”

Well it's clearly bull **** because he often can't see receivers open 7 yards away. He misses open guys ALL the time. The fact he believes this when his tape says otherwise is what is so concerning.

I don't know if it's Kliff or Kyler but I watched some of the recent games back and it's very evident he's back to his old ways from previous seasons. Snap the ball, 1 read, 4 yard pass. Snap the ball, 1 read, 6 yard pass.

Earlier in the field he was going through reads and looked completely different.

 

[SoonerLou]

He threw the Hail Murray on the run. He threw the TD to Moore on the run vs the Vikings earlier in the season.

He can do it, although he doesn't do it enough to really judge how good he is. There should be far, far more of it.

As for this

"I think I was blessed with the cognitive skills to just go out there and just see it before it happens,” Murray said. “I’m not one of those guys that’s going to sit there and kill myself watching film. I don’t sit there for 24 hours and break down this team and that team and watch every game because, in my head, I see so much.”

Well it's clearly bull **** because he often can't see receivers open 7 yards away. He misses open guys ALL the time. The fact he believes this when his tape says otherwise is what is so concerning.

Dan Orlovosky had a 10 minute breakdown of Mahomes having the same issue! Who woulda thought!

And no need for the hilarious hyperbole. He's missed more open wrs the last two games than at any point of the season. However, all the time? lol

 

[Harry]

He threw the Hail Murray on the run. He threw the TD to Moore on the run vs the Vikings earlier in the season.

He can do it, although he doesn't do it enough to really judge how good he is. There should be far, far more of it.

As for this

"I think I was blessed with the cognitive skills to just go out there and just see it before it happens,” Murray said. “I’m not one of those guys that’s going to sit there and kill myself watching film. I don’t sit there for 24 hours and break down this team and that team and watch every game because, in my head, I see so much.”

Well it's clearly bull **** because he often can't see receivers open 7 yards away. He misses open guys ALL the time. The fact he believes this when his tape says otherwise is what is so concerning.

I don't know if it's Kliff or Kyler but I watched some of the recent games back and it's very evident he's back to his old ways from previous seasons. Snap the ball, 1 read, 4 yard pass. Snap the ball, 1 read, 6 yard pass.

Earlier in the field he was going through reads and looked completely different.

You’ve hit on one of my key concerns. If the line can’t form a decent pocket and protect Murray, why not roll him out. One of his major improvements this season has been to recognize he can pull up and throw. Sadly he only does this when running for his life from pass rushers, not as the result of designed plays. This is so Kingsbury. He ignores traditional solutions that have worked for years and instead wants to reinvent the wheel. It’s just sad! I’ve seen enough of Murray throwing on the run to know he’s at least decent. Doing it without so much pressure should produce even better results. I really don’t think we know how much better Murray can be. I’d like to find out.

 

[SoonerLou]

You’ve hit on one of my key concerns. If the line can’t form a decent pocket and protect Murray, why not roll him out. One of his major improvements this season has been to recognize he can pull up and throw. Sadly he only does this when running for his life from pass rushers, not as the result of designed plays. This is so Kingsbury. He ignores traditional solutions that have worked for years and instead wants to reinvent the wheel. It’s just sad! I’ve seen enough of Murray throwing on the run to know he’s at least decent. Doing it without so much pressure should produce even better results. I really don’t think we know how much better Murray can be. I’d like to find out.

I think Kingsbury has done a good job this year imo.

I think now he has to probably adjust to Kyler's struggles without Hopkins. Greg Cosell said that the last two games teams are playing more man and applying pressure up the middle. We're giving up more pressure but before Kyler could just go to Hopkins to make teams pay for playing man. Also forced weaker corners to guard Kirk.

Now that Conner/Chase appear to be healthy I wouldnt mind leaning more on the run game. Using more Two TE's instead of playing 10 personnel or 11 personnel as much. Start using more misdirection.

Or Kyler could simply just start trusting/finding Wesley more.

 

[MrYeahBut]

@Harry As you said, I've always wondered why there's basically no designed plays where Kyler rolls out. Seems like a no brainer, but I'm not the coach. Mystifying.

 

[Russ Smith]

I disagree. All those guys you mention, the ones who are good, the ones who are not have the physical talent to be great. Maybe not the off platform talent of Mahomes but they were drafted where they were because they had the physical talent to justify it.

The difference between the Mahomes, Brady's, Rodger's, Allen's, Watson's etc of the league and the rest is those guys are much better at the mental aspects of the game. Some of it is innate but a lot of it it learnt. From rep after rep, hour after hour of grinding tape and studying defenses so it's already there.

The only computer Carson Palmer touched was the one running Virtual Reality defenses for him to study. Not COD. And he was doing that at 38 with 17 years in the league behind him.

I know there are those here that can't help but defend Kyler but for me he just doesn't put the work in to be great. We have heard these whispers before from people around the team like Gambo, there have been several threads over the years and now Kyler basically said "I don't need to study much. I like to rely on my natural talent". Add in all the COD streaming during the season and it's pretty clear he isn't doing what is required to be as good as those guys. He has the talent to be, we saw that through the first 7-8 games.

I'm always going to be the guy that thinks if you are a QB getting paid the big bucks and you have 2 hours to stream COD on Twitch you have 2 hours to study film. If playing COD is more appealing you either don't care enough or you're too arrogant. Play COD all you like in the off season.

He needs to get better at everything but I do think we need to keep things in perspective. He's not Jake Plummer coasting for 6 years until he finally went to a coach who told him if you don't do it right in practice you won't do it in games either. We had Leinart who seemed more interested in teh hot tub with coeds than football.

Kyler is WAY beyond those two.

 

[TheCardFan]

Mahomes is on pace for nearly 5k yards and 40 TD’s while having the worst year of his career. Kinda unfair to use him as a comp to Kyler. He’s in a different galaxy.

Agreed. I love how people say Kyler sucks and then they compare him to Rodgers and Mahomes.

Side note- both sat for 1-3 years and walked into playoff teams loaded with talent and seasoned NFL coaches.

Kyler played day 1 with worst team in the NFL and a rookie HC that everyone also says sucks.

SMH

 

[TheCardFan]

No not really we’ve been told by everyone that Kyler is an all world next level transcendent QB talent.

Hilarious. This is the massive excuse that some people on this board use to mask that they just plain don't like Kyler. If you can't see what he has accomplished, the talent, and that he is the first legit franchise QB we have had in a very long time (probably longer than those complaining have followed the team)...then be happy being miserable.

Some of us are choosing to look at the big picture and enjoy.

 

[TheCardFan]

The big difference is Kyler isn't anywhere near as good at the mental aspects. Including operating under pressure.

Maybe the bigger difference is Mahomes got to learn 3 years at TT with KK and then redshirt a year in NFL then start with a playoff team and a seasoned NFL coach.

I am not saying K1 is as talented as Mahomes but what bar are we holding him to? Some people seem pissed that he isn't already the GOAT.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Maybe the bigger difference is Mahomes got to learn 3 years at TT with KK and then redshirt a year in NFL then start with a playoff team and a seasoned NFL coach.

I am not saying K1 is as talented as Mahomes but what bar are we holding him to? Some people seem pissed that he isn't already the GOAT.

I think some people are upset he’s been really good to great early in seasons and much worse down the stretch when other teams get tape on him, the playoffs are on the line and the pressure builds.

No one is pissed he’s not the GOAT. We’re upset that a) he doesn’t seem like he gets better in pressure situations and b) apparently doesn’t believe he needs to do the work to ever become the GOAT.

But it’s much easier to argue against the GOAT crap you keep projecting on others.

 

[dscher]

Agreed. I love how people say Kyler sucks and then they compare him to Rodgers and Mahomes.

Yes. This trend is entertaining. At least it shows we are far removed from cheering on the likes of Max Hall.

 

[MrYeahBut]

My $.02 is @TheCardFan approaches this subject with a larger sense of history than I do based on what he posts in the history thread. Meaning, in an historical context, with some notable exceptions, Murray and Kingsbury are leaps and bounds ahead of the sad list of their predecessors.

 

[Cheesebeef]

My $.02 is @TheCardFan approaches this subject with a larger sense of history than I do based on what he posts in the history thread. Meaning, in an historical context, with some notable exceptions, Murray and Kingsbury are leaps and bounds ahead of the sad list of their predecessors.

Again, measuring yourself against crap isn’t really measuring anything at all.

This franchise will never be really legit until it starts trying to compete with the best in the league as opposed to its own pathetic history.

 

[TheCardFan]

Meaning, in an historical context, with some notable exceptions, Murray and Kingsbury are leaps and bounds ahead of the sad list of their predecessors.

Good observation. I would also say I seem to take a broader approach to this season (10 wins/playoffs/7-0/10-2), the progress over the past 3 years, and optism for the future.

 

[TheCardFan]

This franchise will never be really legit until it starts trying to compete with the best in the league as opposed to its own pathetic history.

You mean like 6th best record in the NFL, competing for division title in best division in NFL (4-1 so far), and playoffs? I call that competing.

You want to focus on 0-3? I raise you 7-0, 10-2, and playoffs. That is competing bro.

 

[MrYeahBut]

Again, measuring yourself against crap isn’t really measuring anything at all.

This franchise will never be really legit until it starts trying to compete with the best in the league as opposed to its own pathetic history.

For better or worse, it's my opinion that the franchise is trying. Going all in on Murray as the 1st pick, hiring a coach that would hopefully maximize his talents, signing Hopkins and vet leadership. At least to me it doesn't seem like they're not giving it a go.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

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We’ve got chicken or egg (kliff or kyler) second half slump thing going on . . .

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Again I didn't like his comment but he did NOT say I never watch film.

The kid played basically one full year of college ball, he was always in baseball practice when football season was out the idea that we were getting a polished QB was not one anybody should have had. if you look at his first year and compare it to what we got the prior year with similar talent on offense but with a rookie HC to boot it was pretty amazing given how little he played in college. He got better last year and he's gotten better again this year.

He needs to continue to play better and part of that is going to be watching film.

When i was watching the 4th quarter of that SB loss one of the things that was so impressive is how well Kurt reads defenses. The catch and run TD pass to Fitz that was one of the more amazing pre snap reads you will ever see, they detailed it after the play. The Steelers were playing 2 deep safety, the best defense in the NFL that year playing 2 deep to make sure nobody got deep behind them. Kurt read pre snap that the middle was goign to be open and from what they said audibled to have Arrington start like he was going to run another short route even though he delayed. The reason for that was to get the LB to step up, in this case it was harrison he took one step up and that was it, Fitz got behind Harrison, the safeties were so deep the middle was wide open Fitz in stride outran the safeties and a chasing Harrison to the end zone. Those are the kinds of plays we want to see from Kyler but again Kurt was 37, he'd played 11 seasons in the NFL plus prior minor pro seasons. He'd thrown over 3500 passes. At the point Kyler is at, Kurt wasn't even in the NFL let alone being a 3 year starter inheriting one of the worst offensive teams in NFL history(with a different coach) when he stepped in.

yes we want him to be able to do what Rodgers and Brady do but again they have so much more experience than he does it's not a surprise he's not there yet.

He needs to get better, play better, study better, but I think the quote about the film is being blown out of proportion people are acting like he said the iverson we're talking about practice quote but said it about watchign film.

Russ, literally no one here is saying he said this. What he obviously said was he doesn’t see the need to kill himself watching a lot of film. How many top QBs can you recall making that comment?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I would say that it’s probably somewhere in the middle if anything… You’re saying it’s been blown out of proportion and your dismissing it as no big deal. When our franchise QB openly admitted he doesn’t watch/study too much film.That’s definitely a problem and It’s definitely a red flag.

You guys keep bringing up 1 year as a starter in college and 3 as a pro as an excuse as well. Do you think those other QBs you listed were devouring film and studying defenses early in their careers? I’m betting they were. And at what point can we dismiss that timeframe you list? 3 years as a starter in the NFL is a long time and a lot of experience. It’s enough to know how you should be fine tuning your craft already. Not saying he should know everything but he should be trying to by now and understand how to learn all he can. So what year can dismiss the “it’s only been this long” year 4? Year 5? What’s the magic number? And let’s not forget he’s playing in an offense designed just for him. A coach was hired just for him. He should have the easiest path of almost any young QB to excel.

Agreed. This should be the last year anyone brings up the only one year of college and how many years in the nfl. If going into his fourth year people are still using lack of experience as an excuse it’s a problem.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I disagree. All those guys you mention, the ones who are good, the ones who are not have the physical talent to be great. Maybe not the off platform talent of Mahomes but they were drafted where they were because they had the physical talent to justify it.

The difference between the Mahomes, Brady's, Rodger's, Allen's, Watson's etc of the league and the rest is those guys are much better at the mental aspects of the game. Some of it is innate but a lot of it it learnt. From rep after rep, hour after hour of grinding tape and studying defenses so it's already there.

The only computer Carson Palmer touched was the one running Virtual Reality defenses for him to study. Not COD. And he was doing that at 38 with 17 years in the league behind him.

I know there are those here that can't help but defend Kyler but for me he just doesn't put the work in to be great. We have heard these whispers before from people around the team like Gambo, there have been several threads over the years and now Kyler basically said "I don't need to study much. I like to rely on my natural talent". Add in all the COD streaming during the season and it's pretty clear he isn't doing what is required to be as good as those guys. He has the talent to be, we saw that through the first 7-8 games.

I'm always going to be the guy that thinks if you are a QB getting paid the big bucks and you have 2 hours to stream COD on Twitch you have 2 hours to study film. If playing COD is more appealing you either don't care enough or you're too arrogant. Play COD all you like in the off season.

Dude you can’t be 24 hours. That’s unreasonable. No one is 24 hours anything they do except military on deployment.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

He needs to get better at everything but I do think we need to keep things in perspective. He's not Jake Plummer coasting for 6 years until he finally went to a coach who told him if you don't do it right in practice you won't do it in games either. We had Leinart who seemed more interested in teh hot tub with coeds than football.

Kyler is WAY beyond those two.

No one is comparing kyler to those guys . . . except you Russ. That’s a straw man argument.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You mean like 6th best record in the NFL, competing for division title in best division in NFL (4-1 so far), and playoffs? I call that competing.

You want to focus on 0-3? I raise you 7-0, 10-2, and playoffs. That is competing bro.

Are we competing lately? 0-3, have lost #1 seed, are now losing division, and backed into playoffs, bro.