What is the plan?

[CardsSunsDbacks]

That makes the situation between the 76ers and the suns a bit different. If we didn't have our star players, Booker and Ayton in place, then patience would make more sense.

I guess none of us really knows what the the plan is or needs to be to fix this mess.

The Sixers didn't just become a 52 win team by drafting a couple studs. They also surrounded those two players with some very good role players and had a much more balanced roster than us. Also their two best players are also good on defense and as of right now our best players are not. Both Embiid and Simmons do contribute more to winning right now because while they are both good offensive players they are also both good on defense and that is what separates them from Booker (same with Ayton, but he is a rookie and can certainly improve). Booker can absolutely be the go to guy on a good team (and maybe even a great team), but we will have to surround him and Ayton with good defensive players for it to work. Also keep in mind that Embiid was 3 years removed from college that year and Simmons basically red shirted his first year as well. Those guys were further along than most other players who are in their 1st (Simmons) or 2nd (Embiid) season.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Dave King is far from an idiot. He is someone that leans maybe a little too much on the optimistic side of the spectrum, but he typically comes across as pretty well grounded and logical.

Yeah, I'm just going to leave this part alone as I shouldn't have said it. I don't like bad mouthing people, especially people I don't know - I just know I've disagreed with much of what he's said through the years.

There is always some key aspect in his articles that I agree with but then he often follows it to a wholly unsupportable conclusion. And when things don't go as he expected he often then comes across to me as a petty and embittered fan. Seriously, he reminds me of a long time poster on the Cards board that defected a season or two ago and now writes elsewhere. That guy wasn't really an idiot either, in fact he seemed to be a really nice guy, but his brand and King's similar brand of homer-ism annoys me.

 

[SirStefan32]

I do not follow the Sixers and have no idea what their situation is or was, with either players or coaches.

By irreparable damage I am referring specifically to our rookie coach losing the team and most importantly Booker. We have a max, star player in Booker who is beyond frustrated and yelling at the coach on tv.

I agree that winning will cure all. I'm just not convinced that an average PG will cause the team to win enough games to fix the current problems, maybe it will. If it does it would be great.

By drastic move, I mean parting with our pick and a quality player or two to bring in a top PG or even PF.

I guess the patience question is up to Booker in the end. If he is willing to be patient for a couple more seasons it will probably work ok. What we don't need is to wake up one day and read that Booker has demanded a trade.

Right, so it's not irreparable. Igor will be fine, Booker will be fine, Ayton will be fine. Everyone is going to be fine.

As for the "drastic move", I probably agree with you, to a certain point. Suns have boxed themselves into a corner, and they will have to overpay for a point guard. What I don't want to see is a huge over-payment though. I don't want to see them trade Warren and the picks for Rubio, for example, and then pay Rubio $18M per year. But I do agree that the Suns pick (and the Bucks pick) should be on the table to improve them team immediately. From what I've heard from them, Sarver and Jones tend to agree with us. It's a tricky situation, for sure.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Yeah, I'm just going to leave this part alone as I shouldn't have said it. I don't like bad mouthing people, especially people I don't know - I just know I've disagreed with much of what he's said through the years.

There is always some key aspect in his articles that I agree with but then he often follows it to a wholly unsupportable conclusion. And when things don't go as he expected he often then comes across to me as a petty and embittered fan. Seriously, he reminds me of a long time poster on the Cards board that defected a season or two ago and now writes elsewhere. That guy wasn't really an idiot either, in fact he seemed to be a really nice guy, but his brand and King's similar brand of homer-ism annoys me.

I mean he is a fan. Him and everyone on that site write for free and are fans of the Suns.

 

[taz02]

Right, so it's not irreparable. Igor will be fine, Booker will be fine, Ayton will be fine. Everyone is going to be fine.

As for the "drastic move", I probably agree with you, to a certain point. Suns have boxed themselves into a corner, and they will have to overpay for a point guard. What I don't want to see is a huge over-payment though. I don't want to see them trade Warren and the picks for Rubio, for example, and then pay Rubio $18M per year. But I do agree that the Suns pick (and the Bucks pick) should be on the table to improve them team immediately. From what I've heard from them, Sarver and Jones tend to agree with us. It's a tricky situation, for sure.

Ok, so I was a bit dramatic, haha....

 

[Cheesebeef]

Right, so it's not irreparable. Igor will be fine, Booker will be fine, Ayton will be fine. Everyone is going to be fine.

As for the "drastic move", I probably agree with you, to a certain point. Suns have boxed themselves into a corner, and they will have to overpay for a point guard. What I don't want to see is a huge over-payment though. I don't want to see them trade Warren and the picks for Rubio, for example, and then pay Rubio $18M per year. But I do agree that the Suns pick (and the Bucks pick) should be on the table to improve them team immediately. From what I've heard from them, Sarver and Jones tend to agree with us. It's a tricky situation, for sure.

the Suns pick... a possible top 4 lottery pick should be on the table to improve the team immediately?!

Here's the first sign you should know you're wrong... Sarver agrees with you.

Unless they're going to get back a STAR in return for that pick, trading it immediately will likely go down as just yet another completely idiotic move.

I guess my question is what caliber PG are you talking about to use that pick? Maybe I'm thinking of different players than you are, so if you give me examples, maybe I'd see that what you're saying doesn't seem so short-sighted as it appears to be.

 

[SirStefan32]

the Suns pick... a possible top 4 lottery pick should be on the table to improve the team immediately?!

Here's the first sign you should know you're wrong... Sarver agrees with you.

Unless they're going to get back a STAR in return for that pick, trading it immediately will likely go down as just yet another completely idiotic move.

I guess my question is what caliber PG are you talking about to use that pick? Maybe I'm thinking of different players than you are, so if you give me examples, maybe I'd see that what you're saying doesn't seem so short-sighted as it appears to be.

Well, had you read my post, you'd see that I cautioned against overpaying (I used Rubio as an example of overpaying), so I think we agree. Holiday and Walker come to mind as a couple of players I'd easily take over the Suns pick.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

Another key part of the plan going forward...figure out a way to keep Devin Booker healthy.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Well, had you read my post, you'd see that I cautioned against overpaying (I used Rubio as an example of overpaying), so I think we agree. Holiday and Walker come to mind as a couple of players I'd easily take over the Suns pick.

Jesus. I DID read your post where you ONLY talked in specifics about who you WOULDN'T trade it for, but DIDN'T give specific players who you WOULD trade it for. Thus, I asked specifically who are the players you'd trade it for.

Walker I'd consider it for. Holiday... seems like the exact move Sarver would make, looking at pretty stats that make no almost zero impact for the Pelicans to ensure this team can always be a 40 win team that goes absolutely nowhere long term.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Walker I'd consider it for. Holiday... seems like the exact move Sarver would make, looking at pretty stats that make no almost zero impact for the Pelicans to ensure this team can always be a 40 win team that goes absolutely nowhere long term.

Yeah, not to mention his injury history. I fear we might be saying that about Devin soon but we're already committed there. I wouldn't want to give away that pick for someone that has missed so many games in his career. Actually, I don't want to give away that pick for any player unless it's at least top pick protected.

 

[SirStefan32]

Jesus. I DID read your post where you ONLY talked in specifics about who you WOULDN'T trade it for, but DIDN'T give specific players who you WOULD trade it for. Thus, I asked specifically who are the players you'd trade it for.

Walker I'd consider it for. Holiday... seems like the exact move Sarver would make, looking at pretty stats that make no almost zero impact for the Pelicans to ensure this team can always be a 40 win team that goes absolutely nowhere long term.

Holiday is literally the best defensive guard in the league.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Another key part of the plan going forward...figure out a way to keep Devin Booker healthy.

Yeah, and Devin's frequent problems are the reason I cringe every time some fan says bring in that huge injury risk, our medical staff is great. They are great but it's a very tiny edge, it doesn't stop injuries from happening.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yeah, not to mention his injury history. I fear we might be saying that about Devin soon but we're already committed there. I wouldn't want to give away that pick for someone that has missed so many games in his career. Actually, I don't want to give away that pick for any player unless it's at least top pick protected.

agreed.

it's the same kind of short-sighted thinking this team has made for... well... ever since Sarver took over.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

Yeah, not to mention his injury history. I fear we might be saying that about Devin soon but we're already committed there. I wouldn't want to give away that pick for someone that has missed so many games in his career. Actually, I don't want to give away that pick for any player unless it's at least top pick protected.

Top 3 protection is important to me...I haven't found a 4th player to be excited about from this class yet, but there is a LOT of time left.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Holiday is literally the best defensive guard in the league.

who has terrible injury history, and a "star", paired with the best player in the game, showing so much impact that they're... 4 games under .500.

He's an injury prone stat guy who plays good defense. No thanks for a top 4 pick in the draft when this team STILL doesn't have ANY generational talents and wouldn't have any shot of one if they traded for Holiday.

 

[elindholm]

We had a long debate about that and I did suspect that I could not convince you, but I still think that you wrong.

You can call it luck as long as you wish that the Sixers had 20% of chance of getting those picks but the fact that you keep missing is that this is still higher than any other team had because of the chances that the Hinkie-plan did accumulate for the Sixers.

You do not compare Sixers' chances to the field, you do it to other single team's.

That makes no sense at all. Here's an analogy:

We play a game in which each of us will roll a 6-sided die three times. Each does his own rolls, and we get only one chance. If I get a 5 or a 6 all three times, I win. For you to win, you have to get a 6 all three times. Otherwise, it's a draw. I'm much more likely to win than you are, but it's still quite unlikely. The fact that it's even more unlikely for you is irrelevant.

 

[BC867]

Another key part of the plan going forward...figure out a way to keep Devin Booker healthy.

Speaking of the plan, and especially with EJ saying that Devin will have to be careful to protect his health for the rest of the season . . .

And with the Suns hardly competing for a playoff slot . . .

If I were Igor, I would return Devin to strictly Shooting Guard (and sometimes facilitator from that position) and have a real Point Guard on the floor at all times, no matter how marginal they are, for the rest of the season, even if we don't obtain a better one. For all four quarters.

Devin at SG alongside a marginal PG is a better alternative than Devin as the lead facilitator and guarding PG's and out of action on a regular basis.

Keeping Booker healthy is in the best interests of the Suns and Booker. And Suns management. And the fans. Physically and psychologically. What do we have to lose?

Do I expect that Sarver will show common sense and let Igor take the initiative to make keeping Devin Booker healthy a priority? Or that Igor will have the initiative? Unfortunately, no!

Let's watch what happens. And if it goes back to the status quo when Devin returns, how soon it will take for him to go down again.

Anybody on the Suns payroll who keeps looking the other way shouldn't be on the Suns payroll. Any high school basketball coach understands priorities better than our executives.

 

[1Sun]

Top 3 protection is important to me...I haven't found a 4th player to be excited about from this class yet, but there is a LOT of time left.

Out of curiosity, who are the 2nd and 3rd player to be excited about?

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

Out of curiosity, who are the 2nd and 3rd player to be excited about?

You're not going to like my answer.

Not exactly excited about Barrett, but his upside is high enough that I would not want to pass on him.

And I love Ja Morant. You've made it very clear you don't. That's cool. I think he's got a chance to be very special; fearless, freakish athleticism, great handle, and excellent at creating offense for himself and others; basically, the next Isaiah Canaan.

 

[1Sun]

You're not going to like my answer.

Not exactly excited about Barrett, but his upside is high enough that I would not want to pass on him.

And I love Ja Morant. You've made it very clear you don't. That's cool. I think he's got a chance to be very special; fearless, freakish athleticism, great handle, and excellent at creating offense for himself and others; basically, the next Isaiah Canaan.

If the Suns took Barrett, are you thinking they trade Booker, then? I am pretty certain that the two cannot coexist on the same team.

As for Morant...yeah, I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

If the Suns took Barrett, are you thinking they trade Booker, then? I am pretty certain that the two cannot coexist on the same team.

As for Morant...yeah, I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

I'm cool with agreeing to disagree.

If the Suns took Barrett, I would assume they would do it without having a solid plan (based on my experience rooting for them the past few years) and that Booker would end up being the "point guard" with Barrett also initiating the offense frequently (kind of like LeBron does). To be clear, I am NOT comparing Barrett to LeBron as a player...just saying that I think he's a play initiator but not a point guard.

If the Suns got the second pick, my hope would be they trade it for something of equal value. But if you can't find the right trade, given the talent level of the draft this year, you almost have to pick Barrett and figure it out. (And I say that knowing how much that has hurt us in the recent past.)

Edit: Or take Morant...but I get that's not an option for you and is currently a reach even for most Morant fans. I say we just get the #1 pick again and save the stress!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That makes the situation between the 76ers and the suns a bit different. If we didn't have our star players, Booker and Ayton in place, then patience would make more sense.

I guess none of us really knows what the the plan is or needs to be to fix this mess.

I think it speaks to one of the following:

A) our stars aren’t as good as their stars (yes Ayton is young, but wasn’t Simmons a 1-and-done too?)

B) Igor sucks compared to brown

C) our supporting cast is worse than theirs (though the sixers supporting players were seemingly pretty young too in Dario, Covington, and McConnell)

D) some, or all, of the above

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I would include D'Angelo Russell in there and I liked Caris LeVert before he got injured.

I'm not saying saying they are going to be the next big thing but it shows a team can build without a lot of top draft picks.

Yeah but build to what? That team has a low ceiling imo. No superstar power. Won’t attract a superstar bc no one to play with. Won’t be bad enough to get the top pick. They have to REALLY luck into a star, much less multiple stars.

 

[AZCrazy]

You have to acquire or develop a HOF caliber player or two to have any hope of competing for a championship. Won't even get past the second round without one.
Since 1980, the only NBA champion team not to have at least one Hall of Famer is probably the 2004 Pistons, with Billups, Hamilton, Prince, and the Wallaces starting for them, but all five of them were at least All Stars. Can Ayton or Booker get there? We have a long way to go to build enough around them to find out.

 

[BC867]

You have to acquire or develop a HOF caliber player or two to have any hope of competing for a championship. Won't even get past the second round without one.
Since 1980, the only NBA champion team not to have at least one Hall of Famer is probably the 2004 Pistons, with Billups, Hamilton, Prince, and the Wallaces starting for them, but all five of them were at least All Stars. Can Ayton or Booker get there? We have a long way to go to build enough around them to find out.

The worst team in the league and in its half-century history has no right to even mention the word "championship". Our first goal should be to field a .500+ team, however long that takes.