Wonderlic scores released....Patrick Peterson has a new nickname

[kerouac9]

Which section of the Wonderlic isn't considered important in black culture? Math? Vocabulary? Science? Pattern Recognition?


You're making excuses for dumb kids, and bad parents.

In part, I think that excellence in standardized testing in a culturally specific value, yes. Are these kids dumb, or are they not trying hard on a test because they believe that the test itself is dumb?

I believe that words on the ESPN Page 2 sample test like "profit," possibly "pads," "duplicates," the assumption of Question 11 about printing an article, etc. make assumptions about what should be known in a certain culture and what is unnecessary.

Mostly, though, I think that the assumption by test takers like Darelle Revis, Patrick Peterson, and Vince Young is that these tests are dumb and they don't try hard on them.

I'd like to think that American football has gone beyond the stereotype of blacks can't play QB; centre or L-tackle.

How to you think Asian Americans who are also culturally different would do on this test?

I believe that's the case, as well. That's one of the reasons that I don't think that coaches really care about the Wonderlic. It's interesting though that I can find the low scores of Patrick Peterson and Darelle Revis at the click of a mouse, and about the high scores of Blaine Gabbert, but I can't find the Wonderlic score of Von Miller. What does that say about the people who decide which results to publish/leak and those who don't?

Researching for Levi Brown's Wonderlic, I found the War Room's ranking from that year: http://warroom.sportingnews.com/nfl/draft/2007/players/6854.html It's good that the Cards used the #5 overall pick on TSN's 42nd-best prospect.

To your second question, I'd guess that Asian Americans would be above-average on the Wonderlic test because culturally they exceed even white test-takers because culturally they're invested in academic achievement, one necessity of which is excelling in these kinds of standardized tests.

EDIT: Bonus content! Levi Brown's final analysis from TSN. For those who criticize TSN's draft acumen, this is pretty prescient:

Bottom line: Brown either will become a rock at left tackle or wilt in front of quarterbacks in the NFL -- it all depends on his willingness to work hard on every snap. He never will be a mauler who attacks and pancakes defenders, but he can use his elite athleticism to dominate in pass protection and be efficient in run blocking. Brown will be drafted high, but NFL coaches must be wary of his lacking aggressiveness. Brown will need a drill instructor-like line coach to help him become a solid NFL tackle.

 

[Duckjake]

Researching for Levi Brown's Wonderlic, I found the War Room's ranking from that year: http://warroom.sportingnews.com/nfl/...yers/6854.html It's good that the Cards used the #5 overall pick on TSN's 42nd-best prospect.

They had Dan Williams ranked 84th!

Must have something to do with the NT position.

Linval Joseph 76th and Cam Thomas 97th.

 

[Southpaw]

Which section of the Wonderlic isn't considered important in black culture? Math? Vocabulary? Science? Pattern Recognition?


You're making excuses for dumb kids, and bad parents.

 

[kerouac9]

They had Dan Williams ranked 84th!

Must have something to do with the NT position.

Linval Joseph 76th and Cam Thomas 97th.

Yeah... TSN really, really does not value nose tackles. Not even a little bit. That's the one real criticism I have for TSN; the scouting they do tends to look specifically at 4-3 defensive needs.

 

[Shane]

Which section of the Wonderlic isn't considered important in black culture? Math? Vocabulary? Science? Pattern Recognition?


You're making excuses for dumb kids, and bad parents.

Thank you!

 

[DoTheDew]

Wonderlic shows how "book smart" you are basically. The fact that all of these guys have gotten through at least 3 years of college, means that they should be able to score at least in the high teens if they try on the wonderlic and weren't given a free pass by their teachers/professors for being athletes.

It doesn't prove how good they are going to be as football players, but it does hint at their ability to grasp the complex offenses and defenses in the NFL.

Frankly, I think some positions you don't want a guy who scored in the high 40s. No one that smart is going to be dumb enough to put their body in front of 11 people trying to lay them out and cause concussions and possible permanent damage.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Wonderlic shows how "book smart" you are basically. The fact that all of these guys have gotten through at least 3 years of college, means that they should be able to score at least in the high teens if they try on the wonderlic and weren't given a free pass by their teachers/professors for being athletes.

It doesn't prove how good they are going to be as football players, but it does hint at their ability to grasp the complex offenses and defenses in the NFL.

Frankly, I think some positions you don't want a guy who scored in the high 40s. No one that smart is going to be dumb enough to put their body in front of 11 people trying to lay them out and cause concussions and possible permanent damage.

"On behalf of our organization, we want to congratulate you on being named an All-American; your measurables are first rate, and it translates well to the film, but, we aren't going to draft you because, frankly, you are just too "book smart" to play linebacker in the NFL."

 

[Brian]

Because those positions tend to be dominated by white prospects, who have more culturally in common with the makers of the test. I'll go ahead and say it.

Stupidest. Comment. Ever.

 

[Brian]

I'm not saying that there's something wrong with it, or that the Wonderlic doesn't matter because of this. But when you have a league where 80% of the players are black and yet the results on one test are dominated by white kids, it's obviously something about the test.

Otherwise what people are saying is that on balance all black football players are significantly less intelligent than the white players.

Oops. I was wrong.

THIS is the Stupidest. Comment. Ever.

 

[Treefiddy]

Because those positions tend to be dominated by white prospects, who have more culturally in common with the makers of the test. I'll go ahead and say it.

They just need to reword the questions.

For example:

3. Paper sells for 21 cents per pad. What will four pads cost?

3. Paper be flyin' for 21 cent per. What kind of flow do you need to drop fo' fo pads?

The answer is clearly 84 cent.

Hopefully this will fulfill my racist remark quota for the year....

 

[MigratingOsprey]

Does anyone else find it mildly racist to make an assumption that it's a cultural issue that blacks cannot process questions that deal with basic logic, sequencing, constructing arguments, etc

Where is the bias in asking "what number comes next?" after a pattern ..... there is zero cultural bias there, it's impossible

Are standard units like dollar, cent, foot, month, year, seconds, biased?

Were not dealing with word problems .... or even vocabulary like you would find on tests like the SATs

most of the questions are stripped down with very plain language

it's sad that someone would say that an entire culture wouldn't be able to figure out something so complex..........

 

[rode kardinaal]

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a903993321

This.

 

[Southpaw]

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a903993321

This.

The point being?

 

[SuperSpck]

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a903993321

This.

Could be relevant if the discussion revolves around Jr High and High Schoolers, but a Junior or Senior in college has learned how to suceeed at an academic pace and level.

-unless- we're all up front with the fact that the NCAA is a sham and that schools allow informal majors like "football" in order to drive up revenue at the expense of education and just fix grades to maintain the illusion of standard.

Of course we'd be painting with an absurdly large brush that takes complex topics like economics, race, education, and ethics, each of which is an inescapable minefield of conjuncture and speculation in its own right, and attempting to paint a small and very specific sub group of athletes with it... wait, this is still a message board.

Disregard!

 

[dreamcastrocks]

It's pretty unbelievable that someone can't score any higher than a 9 on a test like the Wonderlic.

On a side note, it's a pretty strange situation that you have to go to college to become a pro athlete, with the occasional exception here and there.

Agreed. You should be able to select C every time and get a better than a 9.

 

[Duckjake]

unless- we're all up front with the fact that the NCAA is a sham and that schools allow informal majors like "football" in order to drive up revenue at the expense of education and just fix grades to maintain the illusion of standard.

And we should be.

If a kid can go to college and major in Saxaphone why shouldn't one be allowed to go to college to major in Football? Just like with Music Majors they would have to show sufficient proficiency in Football to qualify for the Football Major.

The problem is with "at the expense of education". Do Music majors lack for education even though the primary reason they are in College is practicing/getting more proficient with their instrument? No, and neither should athletes majoring in Football.

Those that qualify should be able to major in football and spend most of their time as upperclassmen getting more proficient at the game while taking classes that would qualify them for other jobs related to Football if they don't make the NFL. Coaching, Scouting, Ticket Sales, Media Relations, Broadcasting, Video,and Marketing for instance.

Of course, just like the Music Majors, those majoring in Football would have to take the same courses in English, Math, Science etc. that all College students normally have to pass as Freshmen and Sophomores.

http://www.music.uh.edu/academics/undergraduate_degrees.html

 

[Shane]

They just need to reword the questions.

For example:





The answer is clearly 84 cent.

Hopefully this will fulfill my racist remark quota for the year....

That absolutely awesome fiddy! Thanks for the laugh!

 

[Mulli]

And we should be.

If a kid can go to college and major in Saxaphone why shouldn't one be allowed to go to college to major in Football? Just like with Music Majors they would have to show sufficient proficiency in Football to qualify for the Football Major.

The problem is with "at the expense of education". Do Music majors lack for education even though the primary reason they are in College is practicing/getting more proficient with their instrument? No, and neither should athletes majoring in Football.

Those that qualify should be able to major in football and spend most of their time as upperclassmen getting more proficient at the game while taking classes that would qualify them for other jobs related to Football if they don't make the NFL. Coaching, Scouting, Ticket Sales, Media Relations, Broadcasting, Video,and Marketing for instance.

Of course, just like the Music Majors, those majoring in Football would have to take the same courses in English, Math, Science etc. that all College students normally have to pass as Freshmen and Sophomores.

http://www.music.uh.edu/academics/undergraduate_degrees.html

BIM:

Saxophone.

 

[rode kardinaal]

The point being?

That bias against 'blacks' or bias against race is not what it's all about. Take the Japanese math wizzkid for example, he doesn't excel in math because he has a yellow skin and small eyes (forgive me my racist undertone), he excels in math because (in all likelihood) the cognitive processing of numbers is easier for him due to language differences, giving him more experience with numbers at an earlier age and consequently, a better feeling for math. The math difference declines and ultimately disappears in second, thirdand further generation children. Not to mention adoption studies of course.

The Wonderlic is not biased against blacks, it's probably biased against low SES children. That's the point.

Could be relevant if the discussion revolves around Jr High and High Schoolers, but a Junior or Senior in college has learned how to suceeed at an academic pace and level.

Love the 'unless'. Otherwise American athletes have to be the smartest bunch of people in the world, every single one of them went to college.

 

[kerouac9]

That bias against 'blacks' or bias against race is not what it's all about. Take the Japanese math wizzkid for example, he doesn't excel in math because he has a yellow skin and small eyes (forgive me my racist undertone), he excels in math because (in all likelihood) the cognitive processing of numbers is easier for him due to language differences, giving him more experience with numbers at an earlier age and consequently, a better feeling for math. The math difference declines and ultimately disappears in second, thirdand further generation children. Not to mention adoption studies of course.

The Wonderlic is not biased against blacks, it's probably biased against low SES children. That's the point.

I don't think it has to do with "language processing" (although the fact that Chinese is a tonal language tends to benefit Chinese musicians in having "perfect pitch"). I think it has to do with cultural differences where Easter cultures just work harder and more consistently than Western ones.

If you read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, he has a chapter about rice farming versus wheat farming. Eastern cultures have cultivated rice for centuries, which takes daily maintenence on water levels and the placement of the rice, etc. In Western cultures, we plant grain and then sit back and watch it grow with minimal interference. Eastern cultures have a cultural advantage in working hard, because it's non-negotiable for the founding of their civilization.

 

[rode kardinaal]

It's very possible. I don't know about the 'rice versus wheat' example though. I do know that eastern cultures are collectivistic versus the individualistic western societies. The importance of working together but also not being a disgrace to your family (in the form of bad grades) is or could be of higher importance to them than it is to westerners.

Anyway, point was and still is that low Wonderlic scores are not about race or color, or biases against race or color, but more about social and cultural factors (SES). I have no evidence since I don't know all the scores, but I'm convinced that a black (or white, Asian etc) man raised in wealthy conditions on the right side of the tracks scores significantly higher than a black (or white, asian, etc) man raised in poverty on the wrong side of the tracks.

 

[carrrnuttt]

So wait.

Black college football players aren't American then? Because last I checked, the tests were designed for American schoolchildren raised under American standards in America's culture.

So many ****ing excuses for not giving a ****. Who's being more racist, the group that says "man up, you can do it if you put your mind to it", or the group that says "it's a racist test because it's made in a way your brain can't handle"?

 

[kerouac9]

So wait.

Black college football players aren't American then? Because last I checked, the tests were designed for American schoolchildren raised under American standards in America's culture.

So many ****ing excuses for not giving a ****. Who's being more racist, the group that says "man up, you can do it if you put your mind to it", or the group that says "it's a racist test because it's made in a way your brain can't handle"?

I believe it's the group that is saying, "Hey, look at how dumb all these n*****s are! They can't get a good score on this test!" that is the most racist.

After all, look at all the people who are noting that it was Jake Locker who scored the lowest among the Top QBs on the Wonderlic.

 

[Shane]

I believe it's the group that is saying, "Hey, look at how dumb all these n*****s are! They can't get a good score on this test!" that is the most racist.

After all, look at all the people who are noting that it was Jake Locker who scored the lowest among the Top QBs on the Wonderlic.

Where did you hear all the comments like the one you made in your first paragraph being stated?

Enlighten will you? Who are all the people noting Jake Lockers score?

 

[AZCARDSFANATIC]

Honestly I think too many of you are looking at this from a narrow viewpoint. The wonderlic test is not biased, we don't know if it is designed by the "white authority", so that arguement that it is created by a race for a race is ********. What this comes down to is thesocio economic dynamic and what is deemed important to a specific culture. The black community has for the most part seen higher eductaion as something that is not generally attainable except by a select few. Case in point see the Fab 5 documentary and listen to what Jalen Rose says about black players who go to Duke. Most young balck men see athletics as the primary way they can get into college so they focus more on their physical prowess more than their education. They know that they have a better chance of getting into a college on an athletic scholarship than an academic, especially depending on what part of the country they live in. This doesn't make it right, but the way things are at this time. Black people are not less intelligent than anyone else, but as a culture they do not put the same emphasis on education. And yes there is a big difference between intelligence and education. I have met some people with PHD's who can do a calculus problem in twenty seconds, but they are the worst drivers I have ever seen even though they have been driving for twenty years. I am curious about how some of our NFL great have done on the wonderlic. The wonderlic may be important for diagnosing a playbook, but does that translate to success on the field. Football smart is football smart it isn't something measurable right away. And here is a little point, if someone knows that educating themselves in their chosen field will only help their success, everyone steps to the plate. Also FYI none of the QB's on the cardinals roster ever took the wondelic.