Your opinion on the "Defense" subject

[boisesuns]

I'm wondering something about the "lack of defense" we've seen from D'Atoni's coaching.

My question is: Is it the style of play, or the players he has that contributes to average or below average defense?

I tend to think it's some of both. We know some of the players are pretty bad defenders in the first place, and maybe the style of the game has some influence, but i'm not so sure. The players can still get up and down after a good defensive stop, they just don't do it usually.

Can coaching chang that? I'd like to think so unless the players were too stubborn to learn it, or we have the wrong guys (assistants) helping to teach defense.

My concern is a new coach might come in and preach defense, but until the players apply it, it doesn't matter. Can he help nash stay with PG's that are 10 years younger? Can he convince Amare that rebounds and defensive stops also equal a dominant player?

 

[devilalum]

It's the players. All 3 of our top stars are among the leagues worst defenders.

 

[Covert Rain]

It's both. In the case of Nash, you knew what you were getting when we brought him here. In the case of Shaq, something things he does well defensively and some things he does not. Hill is a good defender. Bell is a good defender.

Also, Mike's Run and Gun style is not conducive to playing good defense. His system requires spacing and quick shots. That's why this team has struggled against teams who get out on transition when the Suns are not shooting well. Mike's system is not conducive to team defense. His system leaves weak defensive players in 1 on 1 situations. This team doesn't play TEAM defense well. Did you notice that our best games were the games where we did play good team defense?

D'Antoni's biggest damnation is that all indications (based on Kerr's comments) is that D'Antoni does not emphasize defense during practices. He has not emphasized defense in the development of Amare. Amare might not be naturally gifted when it comes to defense but part of Mike's job is to develop players. Defense is part of that.

Mike is offensive minded, doesn't emphasize defense and is either unable or unwilling to change his system to play better defense. None of that is the players fault.

 

[BillsCarnage]

It's the players. All 3 of our top stars are among the leagues worst defenders.

I disagree.

Individually the players are good at man-on-man D, except Nash, but he makes up for it with the charges he takes.

Raja is an "in your face" defender
Shaq can still be a presence in the paint
Amare is good 1-on-1 w/ players that aren't bigger or more physical and can play some weak side D - hence the blocks.
Boris - similar to Amare.
Gordy - is active and works to stay w/ his man.
Skinner is a combo of Shaq and Amare.
Barbosa - just needs help overall

What the Suns are horrible at is TEAM and last 2min defense. Making the switches, rotating back, etc. This is why they want(ed) a defensive minded assistant to help them in these situations. D'Ant doesn't know how to coach those.

The Suns used to be good at getting their hands in the passing lanes and causing TO's but this year it diminished greatly and then was non existent once Marion was traded. Marion, Jones and Bell were good at this. These TO's also lead to their fast break.

Problem now is, that no one knows how to defend the PnR because if Shaq comes out the paint is wide open. A coach like Tom Thibodeau(my $$ is on him) might be able to help instill some defensive schemes enough for one more run next year.

Stats like points allowed (and sometimes blocks) is not a valid use to discuss D.

 

[BillsCarnage]

...but part of Mike's job is to develop players.

Ultimately this is D'Ant's biggest downfall. He's yet to take a player and make him better overall then what he started with.

 

[arwillan]

I disagree.

Individually the players are good at man-on-man D, except Nash, but he makes up for it with the charges he takes.

Raja is an "in your face" defender
Shaq can still be a presence in the paint
Amare is good 1-on-1 w/ players that aren't bigger or more physical and can play some weak side D - hence the blocks.
Boris - similar to Amare.
Gordy - is active and works to stay w/ his man.
Skinner is a combo of Shaq and Amare.
Barbosa - just needs help overall

What the Suns are horrible at is TEAM and last 2min defense. Making the switches, rotating back, etc. This is why they want(ed) a defensive minded assistant to help them in these situations. D'Ant doesn't know how to coach those.

The Suns used to be good at getting their hands in the passing lanes and causing TO's but this year it diminished greatly and then was non existent once Marion was traded. Marion, Jones and Bell were good at this. These TO's also lead to their fast break.

Problem now is, that no one knows how to defend the PnR because if Shaq comes out the paint is wide open. A coach like Tom Thibodeau(my $$ is on him) might be able to help instill some defensive schemes enough for one more run next year.

Stats like points allowed (and sometimes blocks) is not a valid use to discuss D.

shaq taking up space does not, by any means, make him a good defender. he has always been one of the league's worst defenders, and coming to phoenix sure won't change that.

amare plays defense when he wants to. he also picks up some of the stupidest fouls imaginable. those two things combined make him one of the leagues poorest defenders.

skinner is not like amare and shaq. he doesn't take up space like shaq because he's only about 6'9. his technique and hustle are fine, but that isn't in any way similar to amare and shaq.

and lastly, a new coach isn't going to heal all of our aged players and ticky tack injuries. Teams don't just win championships the year after they completely change their scheme (like if the suns went to a defensive scheme).

 

[Irish]

Most of the points I would make have already been stated. I would note that the Suns CAN play defense. In game 4 they held the Spurs to 39% shooting and in game 5 to 39.3%. They lost game 5 due to shooting only 41.9% and just (5 of 19 for three and 20 of 37 from the line), rather than poor defense.

Losing Hill to injury and trying to make up for it with Barbosa was was a disaster. Moving Diaw to the 3 slot proved to be a great move (Parker shot 9 of 21 in game 5 after destroying the Suns in the first three games); but the Suns offensive meltdown proved decisive.

Clearly the inability of the Suns to run on the Spurs absolutely kills the Suns' offense and the Suns are really vulnerable when they are bricking their shots because the Spurs can finish at the basket so well on the break. I'm not blaming the offense for their bad defense, but it is related.

Obviously the biggest problem the Suns have is that Nash is physically unable to be more than mediocre defender at best and opponents attack him at every opportunity. So while the Spurs get away with moving screens and other tricks, there is no way he can defend anybody who is good at driving the basket.

BTW, this is why I refuse to support those who think the Suns need a Nash clone as a backup. The Suns need someone at point guard who is able to defend the position or else their whole defense is going to fall apart.

Complaints about Shaq tend to distract from what he does do well - low post defense. Duncan shot 8 of 20 in game 2, 6 of 18 in game 4, and 13 of 28 in game 5. It is clear that he's vulnerable to the pick and roll, but the Suns scheme of pulling him out to defend against a guard on the switch is much to blame.

Moving Diaw to the 3 did help the Suns defense and he created matchup issues for the Spurs. It is not clear if this is the long range answer, but the fact that it took D'Antoni so long to figure it out is disturbing.

The sad truth is that Diaw is just not big enough to be a solid defender on the inside. He was constantly being pushed around by bigger, stronger guys and his rebounding has always been pathetic. His rebounds per minute during the regular season was 0.16 per minute compared to Shaq's 0.361 per minute, Amare's 0.261 per minute and Skinner's 0.28. Diaw brings a lot to the table, but interior defense and rebounding are not his strengths.

My suggestions are:

Move Diaw to SF on a full time level
Add Skinner or Marks or some draftee to the third interior rotation guy.
Use Hill as backup PG
Focus on developing quicker multiple rotations
Change the pick and roll defense to avoid pulling Shaq out of the paint.
Stop taking contested three point shots and emphasize transition defense.
Focus on training Amare in team defense.

 

[BC867]

It's the players. All 3 of our top stars are among the leagues worst defenders.

Think about that. If three of our top stars were among the league's worst defenders, who's really at fault?

With the coach's lip service to once-in-awhile defense, and his lackadaisical comments to the Press about it over the years, the answer seems clear.

 

[wsupkid]

Ultimately this is D'Ant's biggest downfall. He's yet to take a player and make him better overall then what he started with.

Quentin Richardson was better. lol, Ok so he sucks!

 

[SirStefan32]

One thing I want to stress is that while Nash is one of the worst defenders in the league, I don't think Shaq is. Shaq is an outstanding low post defender and rebounder. He's always been bad on pick and roll, but forwards (did someone say "team D?") can help with that if they rotate properly. I really believe that with proper emphasis on defense, Amare can become a good defender. That's what I am looking for.

Diaw is a decent defender, but he just can't defend guys who have 4 inches and 60 lb on him. Giricek, Hill and Bell are all good defenders. I really believe that if coaching staff puts emphasis on D, Suns can be a good defensive team- not great, but good.

 

[elindholm]

The Suns didn't lose to the Spurs on the defensive end. They lost by bungling one critical offensive possession after another in crunch time. Games 1 and 5 were right there if only they had executed properly.

Unfortunately I think it's all moot, because Nash and O'Neal are fading fast. They'll each have lost another 20% by this time next year.

 

[mojorizen7]

I may be off base here....but for a HC who was labeled as an offensive genius,it sure seemed like when it came down to needing a bucket in crunch time, we often looked confused and really struggled to even get "good looks."
Time will tell over the course of D'Antoni's coaching career but i can't help but think that he's going to ultimately fail in NY. I look at him like i do a Mike Martz(figured out,stubborn and overrated.)

 

[nowagimp]

It's the players. All 3 of our top stars are among the leagues worst defenders.

Yup, and if you need any more proof just look at the addelman(are you kidding?) coached rockets, better defense than the spurs on every level.

 

[Irish]

I do not think Nash is one of the worst defenders. He actually tries and there are an awful lot of guys who don't. Not many MVP's are willing to charges like he does and he does get into the passing lanes. Nash's problem is that he is just not big enough or quick enough to be very good at man defense.

Barbosa on the other hand should be better than he is. The sad part is that his role on the Brazilian team has meant his summers have been wasted with a crappy coach rather than getting schooled in footwork and positioning. My fantasy is that without international obligations, maybe the Suns can work with him to make him into a better defender.

IMHO, Amare became a vastly better defender once he was moved to PF. He has a long way to go in defensive rotations, but at least he's not getting beat up in the post by guys who are 40 pounds heavier. For a guy who is so critical to the offense, he could never do what was asked of him and stay out of foul trouble.

In general, the "answer" is better team defense. The Suns match up very well against teams that try to do everything one on one, but have trouble with teams that pass the ball around because the Suns rotations are ALWAYS slow. Adding Shaq actually helped because at least the Suns aren't doubling the post all the time, but that's not enough.

 

[scotsman13]

this team cant get stops when it matters and until they can do that they arent good defenders.

 

[Irish]

this team cant get stops when it matters and until they can do that they arent good defenders.

Stops always matter.

Actually defense is not about stops but making the other team take difficult shots. The Suns have a tendency to give up too many layups and wide open jumpers. That's why people are unhappy with their defense. But if the other team keeps hitting impossible shots, it doesn't matter how good your defense is. That's just the way the NBA is.

 

[jandaman]

Some are forgetting to mention the all out energy on offense which takes away from the defense.

Nash, Stoudemire, O'Neal are bad/mediocre defenders... O'Neal is okay one on one down the post however.... but what makes them so so much worse than they are is... they are flat footed on defense, which is a result of lack of energy or effort.

Barbosa deserves to be yelled at at how much he so flat footed on defense yet on the offense he is on his toes...


one on one defense 1.01..... Stay on your toes!!!!!!!

Flat footed... you've already lost your man...

 

[Irish]

Some are forgetting to mention the all out energy on offense which takes away from the defense.

Nash, Stoudemire, O'Neal are bad/mediocre defenders... O'Neal is okay one on one down the post however.... but what makes them so so much worse than they are is... they are flat footed on defense, which is a result of lack of energy or effort.

Barbosa deserves to be yelled at at how much he so flat footed on defense yet on the offense he is on his toes...


one on one defense 1.01..... Stay on your toes!!!!!!!

Flat footed... you've already lost your man...

Lumping Shaq, Amare, and Nash into the same category is not very helpful.

Nash is physically overmatched by most oppoents and in particular is not strong enough to fight through all the picks.

Shaq is not quick enough to play the pick and roll out on the perimeter. Flat footed or not, the scheme is just stupid if he is supposed to guard out that far. Duncan can't either and he's supposed to be great defender. IMHO, the Suns needed to switch to a modified zone which left Shaq next to the basket like most teams do with their bigs.

Amare does loaf on defense at times, but it has never been his one on one against guys his size that gets him into trouble - it's his slow rotations.

So while I think the flatfooted stuff probably effects Barbosa, I think the scheme is the biggest general problem.