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CardsFan88

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agreed, very sad day to be a Cardinal fan. Hopefully the truth comes out about what is happening but chances are we will never hear the exact truth.
This trainwreck everyone sees. Normally I'd think a player would CYA for future employment and not say anything, but the dysfunction is becoming a soap opera everyone is watching.

Now that these players are fired, they have twitter, and I for one would love to hear them go public.

We've had numerous issues with players in Keim's past, but it seems like Keim/Kliffy are racking them up this year at breakneck speed.
 

CardsFan88

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this is the real crime. HBO has to consider their own reputation at some point here. if the whole planet knows this organization is a dumpster fire, but none of that makes it on the show, their ratings will tank.
HBO is a joke. It's gone way downhill since the '80s-'00s era. How they allowed GoT to descend at the end was like a crossing the rubicon moment.

Still subscribed, but it's mostly out of reputation and habit at this point.
 

cheesebeef

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That’s not true. The average fan likely thinks kyler is great. You have to remember ASFNers aren’t “average fans.” We are super fans. We are gluttons. We see, discuss, and know so much more about the cardinals than the “average fan.” “Average fans” don’t watch pressers. They don’t read articles and watch blogs about their teams. They don’t know who Ben Neimann is.
I don’t think the average fan thinks Kyler’s great. I’ve got a bunch of friends from high school who aren’t rabid like us and think Kyler sucks. Same with fans of other teams who consistently crack on him. They’ve been doing so since the meltdown last season.
 

wit3card

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I don’t think the average fan thinks Kyler’s great. I’ve got a bunch of friends from high school who aren’t rabid like us and think Kyler sucks. Same with fans of other teams who consistently crack on him. They’ve been doing so since the meltdown last season.
the Kyler is great story is gone since last years meltdown at the end of the season. Playoff set it in stone.

Kyler in many minds now is a mobile gimmick QB that is fun to see and gives you some Fantasy points, but not many want Murray on theire team as a starter, if they aren't bottom half of the league.

Friends even asked me after this MNF game, why Larry never said anything when he was on the team, but nodded to all of the points that were made pregame against KM.

Look, everyone knows by now, that Kyler Murray isn't a tape watcher or someone that studies the game, after 4 years he makes still the same dumb plays that should be out of his system (running with the ball short, sliding to short and so on). At least this is now common knowledge and opponent D play him like a fidel some times, because of it.

Is Kyler Murray our only problem? No.
Did our D play piss pour? Yes
Did our O-line play bad? yes
Does Kliff Kingsburrys offense look like the real deal? No
Is Keim a average to good drafter? No

Basically we are at a point, were we get all the informations, the team isn't great but the one person that gets the most money doesn't elevate his teammates and is even not liked by them.
Actuall and past ones (Larry Legend isn't a fan of him) don't see him as a leader. Kirk seems to like his new team and QB more...

I don't believe the "Keim & Kliff and Bidwill are leaking this" narrative that some in this thread speculate, because there is no winner in this.

If you are Keim, you drafted him and gave him a 230 Mio expansion that you can't cut the next year. You failed the team with that and you are getting fired because of it.
If you are Klifff, it was your dream QB which should have broke every record and you let him get the millions, and you never could get him to do what is good for him, basically with the statements that were made it also states that "Kliff isn't able to reach his players or train them to be a better pro" after being a mediocre College HC this would make him a non hireable HC or OC for NFL and college. Even if you put it on KM at the end of the day, you will not give him a HC or OC job in the NFL and probably only a low tear college gives him a HC job, maybe someone an OC job, more likely but also not sure.
Bidwill has nothing to win with this whole thing, basically now he has to react and fire Keim and Kliff after the season to somehow salvage the project Kyler Murray because you can't get rid of him. And he now looks like a fool that overpaid 3 persons.

The only persons that win in this whole discussion are ex players and actual players on the team that are entering FA, and players that hope that this will get Kyler playing better, but from my point of view and what transpires, not many of our players thinks that Kyler Murray can fix Kyler Murray, so really the winners are our Free Agents that want a better contract that they are looking to get right now.

A normal owner after all this, is cornered, if Bidwill, continues with this team and Keim, Murray, Kliff he will get called out all next year if they can't be above .500. Since he can't get rid of Kyler Murray he has to try something else, but now probably no HC candidate wants to work with Kyler Murray because they now know that he is lazy at game studing and didn't improve or works on mechanics himself and his teammates don't follow him. Basically you get to be HC to get fired because the QB doesn't want to improve the next 2 years. And at the end you fire Keim and Kliff since you need to try to salvage or Keim finds a way to get rid of Kyler Murray without killing the team, everything else will make you look bad as the owner.

And no, Kyler Murray want leave for Baseball if he doesn't get his money doing so.
 

nashman

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the Kyler is great story is gone since last years meltdown at the end of the season. Playoff set it in stone.

Kyler in many minds now is a mobile gimmick QB that is fun to see and gives you some Fantasy points, but not many want Murray on theire team as a starter, if they aren't bottom half of the league.

Friends even asked me after this MNF game, why Larry never said anything when he was on the team, but nodded to all of the points that were made pregame against KM.

Look, everyone knows by now, that Kyler Murray isn't a tape watcher or someone that studies the game, after 4 years he makes still the same dumb plays that should be out of his system (running with the ball short, sliding to short and so on). At least this is now common knowledge and opponent D play him like a fidel some times, because of it.

Is Kyler Murray our only problem? No.
Did our D play piss pour? Yes
Did our O-line play bad? yes
Does Kliff Kingsburrys offense look like the real deal? No
Is Keim a average to good drafter? No

Basically we are at a point, were we get all the informations, the team isn't great but the one person that gets the most money doesn't elevate his teammates and is even not liked by them.
Actuall and past ones (Larry Legend isn't a fan of him) don't see him as a leader. Kirk seems to like his new team and QB more...

I don't believe the "Keim & Kliff and Bidwill are leaking this" narrative that some in this thread speculate, because there is no winner in this.

If you are Keim, you drafted him and gave him a 230 Mio expansion that you can't cut the next year. You failed the team with that and you are getting fired because of it.
If you are Klifff, it was your dream QB which should have broke every record and you let him get the millions, and you never could get him to do what is good for him, basically with the statements that were made it also states that "Kliff isn't able to reach his players or train them to be a better pro" after being a mediocre College HC this would make him a non hireable HC or OC for NFL and college. Even if you put it on KM at the end of the day, you will not give him a HC or OC job in the NFL and probably only a low tear college gives him a HC job, maybe someone an OC job, more likely but also not sure.
Bidwill has nothing to win with this whole thing, basically now he has to react and fire Keim and Kliff after the season to somehow salvage the project Kyler Murray because you can't get rid of him. And he now looks like a fool that overpaid 3 persons.

The only persons that win in this whole discussion are ex players and actual players on the team that are entering FA, and players that hope that this will get Kyler playing better, but from my point of view and what transpires, not many of our players thinks that Kyler Murray can fix Kyler Murray, so really the winners are our Free Agents that want a better contract that they are looking to get right now.

A normal owner after all this, is cornered, if Bidwill, continues with this team and Keim, Murray, Kliff he will get called out all next year if they can't be above .500. Since he can't get rid of Kyler Murray he has to try something else, but now probably no HC candidate wants to work with Kyler Murray because they now know that he is lazy at game studing and didn't improve or works on mechanics himself and his teammates don't follow him. Basically you get to be HC to get fired because the QB doesn't want to improve the next 2 years. And at the end you fire Keim and Kliff since you need to try to salvage or Keim finds a way to get rid of Kyler Murray without killing the team, everything else will make you look bad as the owner.

And no, Kyler Murray want leave for Baseball if he doesn't get his money doing so.
What? A lot of stuff in there hard to even understand what your trying to say.

There are only 32 HC NFL jobs available they will always be coveted, and many HCs would want to work with Murray are you kidding? Some peoples opinions on Kyler hardly see who he is, we as fans only see so much. A HC candidate could sit down with Murray and know whether they want to work with him to make him better. Murray is an attraction to this franchise period, any coach sees Murray, Hop, Hollywood, Ertz, Moore, Dortch and sees nice weapons being misused. Keim is the killer if Mike B won’t ditch Keim that far more affects who would want to come here imo. Any coach worth a damn wants a competent GM to bring talent to the team, Keim is a failure at this and everyone knows it!
 

Dayman

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A part that has led to a lot of indirect consequences that ripple across offense and defense
The defense doesn't suck because of Kyler. The defense sucks because there are only 2 real NFL players in the front 7. Dennis Gardeck is out there getting pushed three yards behind the QB, and somehow people still think Kyler's influence is at fault.

This is a perfect example of how the Kyler hatred has spun out of control. The guy has undoubtedly struggled this season, but he has absolutely nothing to do with Leki Fotu getting eaten alive on every play or Keim's addiction to drafting ILBs who aren't really ILBs.
 

MaoTosiFanClub

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The defense doesn't suck because of Kyler. The defense sucks because there are only 2 real NFL players in the front 7. Dennis Gardeck is out there getting pushed three yards behind the QB, and somehow people still think Kyler's influence is at fault.

This is a perfect example of how the Kyler hatred has spun out of control. The guy has undoubtedly struggled this season, but he has absolutely nothing to do with Leki Fotu getting eaten alive on every play or Keim's addiction to drafting ILBs who aren't really ILBs.
To be fair that’s part of being a QB and making the big bucks. But of course you’re right - we suck pretty much across the board right now. That’s on Keim, Bidwill, Kliff
 

Stout

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I don’t think the average fan thinks Kyler’s great. I’ve got a bunch of friends from high school who aren’t rabid like us and think Kyler sucks. Same with fans of other teams who consistently crack on him. They’ve been doing so since the meltdown last season.
Kyler has been a running joke on Pittsburgh sports radio since the idiotic extension.
 

Stout

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To be fair that’s part of being a QB and making the big bucks. But of course you’re right - we suck pretty much across the board right now. That’s on Keim, Bidwill, Kliff
Yup. You take the coin, you take the criticism.

That said, the D has been atrocious. Which it was always going to be. We have Vance "Bend But Break" Blowseph coaching the D, and have invested roughly a buck-forty in personnel. The entire setup of this team was the D was just going to have to try to hang in there while the offense outscored the opposition. Yeah, that doesn't really work when your QB isn't in it to win it. He got his bank, so he doesn't even have to pretend any longer.
 

BritCard

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Funny they never mentioned the amount of holes the rest of the roster has.

The Kyler bashing is straight from the Keim/Bidwill leak department. Maybe a little Kliff thrown in because during his weekly film sessions he I'm sure he assures dummy Bidwill that his offense is innovative and Kyler is the sole problem.

Give it a break man. They didn't mention it because they were discussing Kyler, nothing else. They weren't talking about how bad the Cards were but how bad Kyler has been and his lack of leadership and effort.

I find it astounding that people are still denying this is a problem. We've been told from multiple sources for a year now. Everyone in the media has heard rumours out of the Cardinals about it. The local Arizona sports media (who are the biggest shills for the Cards) know it. Players are talking about it. And it's clear for fans to see.

There is a massive Kyler problem with his attitude, his work ethic, his accountability, his preparation and his leadership. Anyone arguing otherwise is in denial.
 

BritCard

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It's pretty simple really: Keim and Kliff know that nobody in the NFL or college would hire them in any remotely important position so they're going to fight like a cornered animal to keep this job and throw anyone and everyone under the bus to save their hides. And Kyler with the way he's played this year and his personality has given them the perfect scapegoat for their own incompetence.

And this is just getting started too, Kyler and his people are going to swing back here at some point. And he should do this I'll add. Everyone save BritCard and a few others realize that there's a lot more than Kyler to blame for this sh-tshow.

Wow.

And I can't tell you how absolutely ridiculous the idea that the franchise would sacrifice it's $250m quarterback with $160m guaranteed to save the careers of a GM that earns $2m a year and a HC that earns $6m a year. And whose whole guaranteed money over the next 5 years is $32m.

So Kliff and Keim are inventing the narrative that it's all Kyler fault. He's the problem. And leaking this to the media. To save their jobs? And not one player or coach has stepped up to counter this false narrative? Nobody has said to Mike "This isn't true. Kyler is a great leader and works really hard". Kyler has no issues at all and the hundreds of players, coaches and staff at the Org are just going along with it?

Former players like Larry Fitzgerald are in on it too then? They just sit there nodding their head as various people rip into Kyler and say how the franchise are pissed and want him to "go back to school"? Larry is just talking about how the offense are much more motivated by McCoy's leadership style for kicks?

I mean, Kyler sucking and being a terrible leader after paying them all that money is exactly what gets GM's and HC's fired more than anything so it would be pretty counter productive.

This is a new unimaginable depth of nutbaggery. Completely and utter ridiculous that this even crossed anyone's mind for a nano second.
 

BritCard

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This thread is nuts.

Larry Fitzgerald, who played with Kyler and has more connections in this franchise (he literally says he's talking to players in this clip) than anyone, is sat there nodding along as Steve Young buries Kyler then adds in his own take on Colt McCoy's improved leadership, trust from receivers and attention to detail and the response from some here is "Keim's doing it to save his job"?

Freaking hilarious.

You know why there has been a sea change in the attitude towards Kyler? Because it's all true and he has sucked this year. All those local media guys like Gambo, Wolf, Luke etc are first and foremost fans of the Cardinals.

Like the majority of fans they can see Kyler has sucked. They then talk to people in the franchise because they are well connected and they hear about the issues the Org is having with him.

It's not some massive conspiracy by the GM (That's freaking nuts). It's just the truth coming out. The exact same truth that has been coming out since year 1 to be honest. It's just now Kyler sucks they have no reason to bury it so much.
 

BritCard

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as I have NO doubt that Eno and now Kugler (probably Ward as well), had serious issues with the wonderboy's offense and, for reasons I will never understand, "the organization" chose to have Kliffy's back.

lol. You don't fire a position coach in Mexico the night before MNF and make him get his own plane home because he criticized the offense.
 
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BritCard

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Well, there are only 4 that really matter and he is one of them.

The most important one.

If Kyler plays even remotely well. Just Ryan Tannehill, Jared Goff, Geno Smith, Kirk Cousins level play. Then we win at least 3 more games and we are 7-4 instead of 4-7 and nobody is talking about Kliff or Keim or anything else.

Just off the top of my head the Rams, Eagles and Seahawks games were all winnable if the offense didn't blow.

That's the reality of it.
 

cardpa

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Maybe Kugler got himself fired on purpose just to get out of this disaster before the flood gates open up. Maybe he was tired of being asked to turn turds into diamonds.

Murray is probably thinking I never had to work that hard in high school or college, why do I have to work harder here? Before I just stepped on the field and did my thing. Murray lacks work ethic and doesn't see why he needs to devote substantial significant time to his position. Murray got by on athletic ability through college and probably was never pressed or pushed to develop into a better QB. Now his job requires additional investment in studying and learning and he doesn't see a need for it.
 

82CardsGrad

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lol. You don't fire a position coach in Mexico the night before MNF and make him get his own plane home because he criticized the offense.
LOL… because that was certainly the one and ONLY time Koogs criticized the offense.
 

82CardsGrad

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LOL… because that was certainly the one and ONLY time Koogs criticized the offense.
EDIT: While I still believe Koogs likely questioned Kliff - often, and was growing frustrated with him and the org, I just read the ESPN report about him groping a woman. Sorry Koogs - you gotta go. Right move by the team…
 
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slanidrac16

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Yup. You take the coin, you take the criticism.

That said, the D has been atrocious. Which it was always going to be. We have Vance "Bend But Break" Blowseph coaching the D, and have invested roughly a buck-forty in personnel. The entire setup of this team was the D was just going to have to try to hang in there while the offense outscored the opposition. Yeah, that doesn't really work when your QB isn't in it to win it. He got his bank, so he doesn't even have to pretend any longer.
I agree Stout. We of expected a weak defense. I’ve stated many times if we were going to win this year it would be games like 34-31. This offense has hung the defense out to dry.

The epic failure of this team is the offense. All 3 K Boys have grossly under performed. Until Keim gets really serious to build a quality o-line, Kliff realizes the field is longer than wider, and Kyler wakes up and puts the work in this team is dead in the water.
We would need a top 3 defense to even have a chance win with this offense.
 

Proximo

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The defense doesn't suck because of Kyler. The defense sucks because there are only 2 real NFL players in the front 7. Dennis Gardeck is out there getting pushed three yards behind the QB, and somehow people still think Kyler's influence is at fault.

This is a perfect example of how the Kyler hatred has spun out of control. The guy has undoubtedly struggled this season, but he has absolutely nothing to do with Leki Fotu getting eaten alive on every play or Keim's addiction to drafting ILBs who aren't really ILBs.
I mean that's true. But even if the D gets completely fixed, Kyler looks like at best a game manager, and that's not good enough.

I worry he is on the same path as Baker, and nobody thinks he can be saved at this point. I hate to say it but I am warming to the idea of trying to trade him this offseason. Not sure it's doable, but I think it may have to be attempted.
 

BritCard

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I agree Stout. We of expected a weak defense. I’ve stated many times if we were going to win this year it would be games like 34-31. This offense has hung the defense out to dry.

The epic failure of this team is the offense. All 3 K Boys have grossly under performed. Until Keim gets really serious to build a quality o-line, Kliff realizes the field is longer than wider, and Kyler wakes up and puts the work in this team is dead in the water.
We would need a top 3 defense to even have a chance win with this offense.

I do sometimes wonder if Kliff has realised the hashes are narrower in the NFL so he doesn't have a wide open field to one side like in college.
 

kerouac9

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I do sometimes wonder if Kliff has realised the hashes are narrower in the NFL so he doesn't have a wide open field to one side like in college.
He mentioned it constantly his first year here. It was one of the major things he had to refine about his passing designs.
 

BritCard

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He mentioned it constantly his first year here. It was one of the major things he had to refine about his passing designs.

I was obviously being sarcastic regarding his fondness for screens.

For all those wondering the league average for screens is 10%. Last season the cards ran screens at the highest rate in the league (18%).
 

SissyBoyFloyd

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I gotta put my glasses on. I could have sworn this thread was entitled 'Worth a Lesbian'.
 

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