Why It’s a Risk to Hire a Coach With a Losing Record

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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No no no no no. Apologies. If we're talking about unverifiable quotes, Im referring to the specific convo I was having with Ouchie regarding the fansided article. If I was unclear there, sorry. But since we're here, lets talk the NYT article.

I have issues with posters assumptions/reading-into the NYT article as well, insofar as I read it very differently than most of y'all. But I haven't gotten into it because its apparent there's no getting people to see alternate perspectives. What I read was (paraphrasing, but with key words) "Im not the type TO KILL MYSELF" watching film. Yes, that is indicative of a player pushing back against the traditional route to greatness in the NFL. Hence, a bunch of old guys like us take issue with it. I also see what everyone else sees, and I too have issues with it in terms of his current level of play. But I also realize that times change, and maybe there are other routes to greatness. Who knows. Im the epitome of a knows-enough-to-be-dangerous football fan.

I guess I read it from the perspective that the writer was fascinated (in awe almost) with Kyler Murrays approach to football. That interview most certainly happened before his current swoon, and its timing might even be more lucrative for the writer now that said swoon has happened. Its a lot more click baity when the subject of all that reverence (again, my interpretation) is getting knocked down a peg or two. More clicks, yadda yadda yadda. People like to kick a guy when he's down.

Now, we've all seen how poorly KM has been playing, but I personally am far less concerned about a quote like that, because if it had come out when he was literally destroying teams early in the season this board would be cooing about his greatness. It is what it is.

Thats my take on the NYT article in a nutshell. That kind of stuff means little to me in the grand scheme of things. Its just part of the whole picture we are still drawing of this young man.
I appreciate your being open to alternative means to achieving greatness. I get that. But when film is about knowledge. What alternatives can possibly supplant superior knowledge in achieving greatness?
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Well, I believed it would. But then the "unnamed AFC scout" nonsense popped up. The info is still interesting, just less believable, therefore holds less weight with me when looking at the overall picture
So it’s your position that the author made up the quotes. Got it.
 

schutd

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So it’s your position that the author made up the quotes. Got it.
Gah. No. There are people all the time that don't want quotes attributed to them. It could be because he's so high up in the world that it would be detrimental to his career. It could also be that he's so low, its beneficial for the writer to not attribute the quote so as to give the impression that the guy who said it is a higher up. Make sense? I have no doubt the quote was said. The "unnamed AFC scout" source is why I give it less credence.

Fan-based writing + unnamed source = little overall relevance to me. Interesting, but doesnt carry much weight.
 

schutd

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I appreciate your being open to alternative means to achieving greatness. I get that. But when film is about knowledge. What alternatives can possibly supplant superior knowledge in achieving greatness?
If I knew, Id be up for a 40 million a year extension at the end of the season.
 

TheCardFan

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With this I pose a question to you, how many more seasons are you willing to give him if the present scenario (the Jekyll and Hyde halves) continues into the future before you say maybe Kliff isn't the guy.

Good question Cardpa but did anyone believe when we hired KK that he was a finished product/polished NFL coach? I don't think anyone did. We all knew why this decision was made (catch someone a bit early vs late) and we all realized there would be growing pains.

With that said - he has improved every year. We nearly made the playoffs last year and we did this year (based a ton on what we did to get to 10-2).

I will answer your question by saying that I am willing to continue to put up with growing pains as long as we continue to get better. Next year - playoffs are table stakes. This team needs to make a run in the playoffs. Maybe Super Bowl - maybe the year after. It really depends on the talent level (and other things). We took a big step forward this year and I expect the same next year.

Question for you and anyone else: Where has KK regressed as a coach?
 

GatorAZ

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Agreed. They made a miracle run, heavily influenced by the playoffs and seeding falling PERFECTLY in line.

Think about this... we hosted the NFC Championship... after going into the playoffs with the worst record of ALL the playoff teams.

The Eagles beating the Giants was a top-10 moment in Cards history and they didn’t even play lol
 

cheesebeef

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The Eagles beating the Giants was a top-10 moment in Cards history and they didn’t even play lol

Yup. I remember going to the bar with a couple friends to watch that game and as it became clear the Eagles were going to pull off the shocker, one friend looked at the rest of us and said: Is this really happening?!

I remember after the Falcons game, me, Ouchie, Bro not Ouchie, dad and my best friend and his father who we started going to games with back in 1988 were eating out customary “Cardinals Playoff Cake” in the parking lot. And as we said our goodbyes, I joked, well, after Philly upsets Minnnesota tomorrow, we beat the Panthers who killed us this year and then Philly upsets the 13-3 super bowl defending champion Giants next week, we’ll see you guys right back here in a couple weeks for the NFC Championship Game!

We all laughed at that scenario because it really was crazy how those playoffs broke down.
 
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Harry

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No no no no no. Apologies. If we're talking about unverifiable quotes, Im referring to the specific convo I was having with Ouchie regarding the fansided article. If I was unclear there, sorry. But since we're here, lets talk the NYT article.

I have issues with posters assumptions/reading-into the NYT article as well, insofar as I read it very differently than most of y'all. But I haven't gotten into it because its apparent there's no getting people to see alternate perspectives. What I read was (paraphrasing, but with key words) "Im not the type TO KILL MYSELF" watching film. Yes, that is indicative of a player pushing back against the traditional route to greatness in the NFL. Hence, a bunch of old guys like us take issue with it. I also see what everyone else sees, and I too have issues with it in terms of his current level of play. But I also realize that times change, and maybe there are other routes to greatness. Who knows. Im the epitome of a knows-enough-to-be-dangerous football fan.

I guess I read it from the perspective that the writer was fascinated (in awe almost) with Kyler Murrays approach to football. That interview most certainly happened before his current swoon, and its timing might even be more lucrative for the writer now that said swoon has happened. Its a lot more click baity when the subject of all that reverence (again, my interpretation) is getting knocked down a peg or two. More clicks, yadda yadda yadda. People like to kick a guy when he's down.

Now, we've all seen how poorly KM has been playing, but I personally am far less concerned about a quote like that, because if it had come out when he was literally destroying teams early in the season this board would be cooing about his greatness. It is what it is.

Thats my take on the NYT article in a nutshell. That kind of stuff means little to me in the grand scheme of things. Its just part of the whole picture we are still drawing of this young man.
I certainly agree times change and getting caught doing things because “we’ve always done it this way,” is a road to failure. However if you want to change a paradigm you should first determine why some action is the paradigm. Then you assess whether the result of that action is critical. Finally, if that result is critical, you have to see if your new paradigm can accomplish it.

There are many reasons to study film. One is to be able to read defendive alignments and audible. I don’t think Murray’s statement, “I think I was blessed with the cognitive skills to just go out there and just see it before it happens,” holds much value. Nothing else indicates how an alternative process would enable him to recognize alignments.

This assessment is very succinct, “Murray does not watch much game film.” The quote about 24 hours contains a little more, “I don’t sit there for 24 hours and break down this team and that team and watch every game because, in my head, I see so much.” He clearly says he doesn’t watch film on every game. How do you see you missed open receiver opportunities, if you just watch selective games? My experience is that certainly you can go film crazy, but you still have to review every game and not in your head unless you have eidetic memory. Even then you’d only see what you were focused on observing.
 

MrYeahBut

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I certainly agree times change and getting caught doing things because “we’ve always done it this way,” is a road to failure. However if you want to change a paradigm you should first determine why some action is the paradigm. Then you assess whether the result of that action is critical. Finally, if that result is critical, you have to see if your new paradigm can accomplish it.

I think you've described Michael Bidwill's decision to stick with Keim all this time despite the obvious failures. He'd lose his security blanket if he were to make a change. Some people have the nerve to do it, some don't.
 
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And you can disagree with me about the balance - but you don’t get to set what’s appropriate or not.

Also, the greatest negativity on this board, the greatest volume of attacks on other posters, is the so-called “positive” fans attacking other posters who don’t agree with their zippity-dlo-dah rainbows out their backside blinders perspective. Posters get called whiners, get told to leave the board, have their fandom called out all the freaking time for just posting their take on a player, on a play, on a coach, on the front office, on a game, on a season, or on trends . . . you know, ACTUAL FOOTBALL TOPICS. And those posters never get banned because they’re “positive,” which in reality is a lot of crap because they’re they ones attacking other posters.

If you feel shouted down on a football topic it’s merely because more posters disagree with your perspective than agree. It’s not posters ganging up. It’s each individual posters reading and reacting to what you’re posting. I read and post and reply. I don’t read the entire thread and then reply. I’m sure many other posters do the same. So if you feel you’re getting hanged up on it’s just a reflection that your perspective isn’t shared by a large number of people on the board who just happened at that moment to read your post and decided to respond. You can’t be angry that more people disagree with your perspective than agree with it. It is what it is. Happens to virtually every single poster at some point in time. Happens more to some than others. But it is what it is. Man over this past year I think Solar has taken more heat, on both a football level and as a personal poster, than anyone I can recall on this site and he doesn’t whine about it. He stands up for his perspective, he eats crow when appropriate, and he stays true to himself and as a fan of the cardinals. So buck up, if Solar can take it - and he’s taken a lot more than you have had to deal with here - anyone can. If you think anyone is too negative for you use the damn ignore button. I use it for a few posters who I believe don’t add anything of value and it enhances my use of ASFN tenfold.

.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Gah. No. There are people all the time that don't want quotes attributed to them. It could be because he's so high up in the world that it would be detrimental to his career. It could also be that he's so low, its beneficial for the writer to not attribute the quote so as to give the impression that the guy who said it is a higher up. Make sense? I have no doubt the quote was said. The "unnamed AFC scout" source is why I give it less credence.

Fan-based writing + unnamed source = little overall relevance to me. Interesting, but doesnt carry much weight.
Understood.
 

Stout

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Like I told Cheese or Ouchie or Stout??? The Cards are not a deep team. Our second team is like any other teams 3rd team. Our stars pretty much have to be injury free for us to compete on a high level. That's just the way it is unfortunately.
I can see what you mean here. Pretty damning on Keim, though.
 

WisconsinCard

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I certainly agree times change and getting caught doing things because “we’ve always done it this way,” is a road to failure. However if you want to change a paradigm you should first determine why some action is the paradigm. Then you assess whether the result of that action is critical. Finally, if that result is critical, you have to see if your new paradigm can accomplish it.

There are many reasons to study film. One is to be able to read defendive alignments and audible. I don’t think Murray’s statement, “I think I was blessed with the cognitive skills to just go out there and just see it before it happens,” holds much value. Nothing else indicates how an alternative process would enable him to recognize alignments.

This assessment is very succinct, “Murray does not watch much game film.” The quote about 24 hours contains a little more, “I don’t sit there for 24 hours and break down this team and that team and watch every game because, in my head, I see so much.” He clearly says he doesn’t watch film on every game. How do you see you missed open receiver opportunities, if you just watch selective games? My experience is that certainly you can go film crazy, but you still have to review every game and not in your head unless you have eidetic memory. Even then you’d only see what you were focused on observing.
Another thing to add to this, is studying your opponents tendency's. Even certain players tendency's, as some have said that when punched in the mouth or get gassed players revert to their norm.
 

cardpa

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Good question Cardpa but did anyone believe when we hired KK that he was a finished product/polished NFL coach? I don't think anyone did. We all knew why this decision was made (catch someone a bit early vs late) and we all realized there would be growing pains.

With that said - he has improved every year. We nearly made the playoffs last year and we did this year (based a ton on what we did to get to 10-2).

I will answer your question by saying that I am willing to continue to put up with growing pains as long as we continue to get better. Next year - playoffs are table stakes. This team needs to make a run in the playoffs. Maybe Super Bowl - maybe the year after. It really depends on the talent level (and other things). We took a big step forward this year and I expect the same next year.

Question for you and anyone else: Where has KK regressed as a coach?
I would say there hasn't been a regression, instead I will say there hasn't been any significant improvement in his overall time as a HC. I still see the same mistakes and general deficiencies in his time as a HC. He still isn't better at clock or TO management. His play calling still yoyo's significantly within a game and some decisions still make my head spin. I believe most of the improvement in this team has been in the upgrade in quality of players in his time as the HC. The Oline has become somewhat better, the RB group is definitely better and the WR group is probably better than previous years. Even TE is better than it was. On defense the secondary has been upgraded, the LB group has seen an upward trend and only the Dline seems to be stagnant. My opinion is the upgrades probably account for 1- 2 wins more each year from 2019. I just don't see KK as having any quantified contribution to the improvements of this team.
 

Crimson Warrior

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K2 silences his critics, at least for one week, while picking up the improbable road win against the "juggernaut" Dallas Cowboys.
A win next week is by no means guaranteed. But, if Kliff gets us to 12-5, winning our last two, to me it is a successful season, regardless of the outcome of the playoff game.
 

Krangodnzr

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Yup. I remember going to the bar with a couple friends to watch that game and as it became clear the Eagles were going to pull off the shocker, one friend looked at the rest of us and said: Is this really happening?!

I remember after the Falcons game, me, Ouchie, Bro not Ouchie, dad and my best friend and his father who we started going to games with back in 1988 were eating out customary “Cardinals Playoff Cake” in the parking lot. And as we said our goodbyes, I joked, well, after Philly upsets Minnnesota tomorrow, we beat the Panthers who killed us this year and then Philly upsets the 13-3 super bowl defending champion Giants next week, we’ll see you guys right back here in a couple weeks for the NFC Championship Game!

We all laughed at that scenario because it really was crazy how those playoffs broke down.
Naw man, Carolina beat the Cardinals on that fluky long TD by Steve Smith where to me, it was clear his foot stepped out of bounds after getting pushed out by Roller, but it was ruled a TD.
 

BirdGangThing

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This next season you will see me referring to Kingsbury as stuff like "peaches" or "beans" or maybe even soup

Anything that's canned
 
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cheesebeef

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xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

interesting. I thought I remembered us getting killed against Carolina earlier that season, but I guess not. That said, I do remember that down the stretch of that season, we were atrocious, regularly getting beat like a pinata which helped us earn that moniker "worst playoff team ever" while Carolina went 10-2 after starting 2-2 and was undefeated at home at 8-0. Think we were something like 10 point dogs going into that game, thus the feeling that it would take a lot of unlikely twist and turns from not only us, but all the other games to end up playing at home in the NFC Title game.

and yup... that game was the ninth biggest upset in playoff history by spread.

 

Krangodnzr

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interesting. I thought I remembered us getting killed against Carolina earlier that season, but I guess not. That said, I do remember that down the stretch of that season, we were atrocious, regularly getting beat like a pinata which helped us earn that moniker "worst playoff team ever" while Carolina went 10-2 after starting 2-2 and was undefeated at home at 8-0. Think we were something like 10 point dogs going into that game, thus the feeling that it would take a lot of unlikely twist and turns from not only us, but all the other games to end up playing at home in the NFC Title game.

and yup... that game was the ninth biggest upset in playoff history by spread.

The problem that I had with everyone saying Carolina was going to win is that Carolina's win earlier in the year was FLUKY!

That Steve Smith TD he was clearly in my eyes, out of bounds! You could see how footprint in the chalk in real time...but the angle it was hard to see his foot out.

Sometimes your just 100% confident your team is going to win and that was one of those games for me, especially after beating a pretty good Falcons team.
 

cheesebeef

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The problem that I had with everyone saying Carolina was going to win is that Carolina's win earlier in the year was FLUKY!

That Steve Smith TD he was clearly in my eyes, out of bounds! You could see how footprint in the chalk in real time...but the angle it was hard to see his foot out.

Sometimes your just 100% confident your team is going to win and that was one of those games for me, especially after beating a pretty good Falcons team.
Gotcha. Regardless, that was the only time my crew got to have Celebratory Playoff Cardinals Cake. Definitely a run for the ages!
 

cheesebeef

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Cheese was talking about our run through the playoffs.

yeah, but I mentioned that Carolina game earlier in the season, which I mistakenly remembered us being blown out. Krango posted that game was much closer... and apparently one we blew a nice 17-3 second half lead in.
 

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