Why It’s a Risk to Hire a Coach With a Losing Record

TheCardFan

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Couldn't agree more. When I initially found this board (2002), I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. I started following this team in 1964, so I was a diehard for 40 years without even knowing another Cardinal fan. Listening to the whiners on this board is draining & only pushes me away from visiting this board more frequently. I'm not here to pick fights with the chicken littles on this board. It's exhausting hearing the "we're all rooting for the Cardinals to win", but realistically, WE SUCK. It gets old. And I'm getting too old to listen to it. To each their own though.

100%. I don't even go on this board right after a loss and I won't step foot into the live game chat threads (vitriol, panic, and anger on just about every play). It's not fun at all.
 
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TheCardFan

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What is presently the reason for optimism heading into the Cowboys game?
We have 10 wins and are going to the playoffs (first time since 2015). We have a franchise QB. Giddy up!
A healthy amount of cheering together, an appropriate amount of criticism of the ownership, management, coaches, and players who have given us sub .500 overall record over the span, and an ever present attack on posters who express their misgivings of the team or their frustrations.

I would disagree that its a healthy amount of cheering together or an appropriate amount of criticism. People personally attack others and shout them down with negativity if they don't agree. This board wanted KK and VJ fired after year 1, then they liked KK at the beginning of 2020, then they wanted him fired again. 2021 - People loved Keim, KK, and KJ - now people want to fire them and blow up the team for a 3 game losing streak. We had a 7 game winning streak for the first time since 1974 and then we went 10-2. Some people choose to look at the entirety of the season and the progress that has been made each year from 2018 (worst team in the NFL). Some act like they are fans of an NFL dynasty and have zero tolerance for any missed plays, bad decisions, or lost games. That is just not reality. Only 1 team in the NFL wins the Super Bowl each year. We have to crawl, walk, run to get where we want to go and then stay there for a long time. I like the progress that has been made and am very optimistic about the future.
 

schutd

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“There isn’t any structure or discipline there.”

Scathing indictment of the team and reasonable to believe it due to the consistent pattern of backwards slides across all seasons of kingsbury tenures everywhere.
To be fair, a "scathing indictment" from an un credited source, on a website called "fansided" (alluding to being no more in the know than any of us), that is in desperate need of someone with some editing skills.
 

TheCardFan

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Has he proven in college and the pros he can finish seasons?

He has proven he can get better each year and he has proven he can make the playoffs - in the NFL. At this point (for me), his college record goes out the window. I don't care about it.

I don't like the way we have finished last year or this year (so far) but I LOVE the way we started (7-0/10-2) and we are in the playoffs. KK doesn't miss kicks, he doesn't hike the ball past the QB, and he doesn't commit stupid penalties. These are grown ass men out there - they need to take accountability and execute better. If those guys execute we win vs the Colts and the Lions (plus running the damn ball). We are AJ Green turning around from beating the Packers. It's not like we are getting overmatched.
 

juza76

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Incorrect. Any coach brought in will know kyler is his guy. You don't dump an MVP candidate on his rookie deal because you change coaches.
The truth is that kyler already being here makes this job more desirable because an incoming coach knows he doesn't have to risk his future on an unknown at qb.
Did Rodgers get cut when the Packers changed coaches? Derek Carr has been through a few coaches too.
Every coach wants a franchise qb and having one on the roster is much better than trying to find one with a mid twenties pick in the draft
more likely, Murray will have a say in the case they are searching for a new coach
 
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Chopper0080

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He has proven he can get better each year and he has proven he can make the playoffs - in the NFL. At this point (for me), his college record goes out the window. I don't care about it.

I don't like the way we have finished last year or this year (so far) but I LOVE the way we started (7-0/10-2) and we are in the playoffs. KK doesn't miss kicks, he doesn't hike the ball past the QB, and he doesn't commit stupid penalties. These are grown ass men out there - they need to take accountability and execute better. If those guys execute we win vs the Colts and the Lions (plus running the damn ball). We are AJ Green turning around from beating the Packers. It's not like we are getting overmatched.
There is truth to this. I can be as critical of Kyler as probably anyone on this board but I do so knowing that he has the ability to be even better. I just get a bit worn out when I watch Kyler underperform in regards to his ability and then hear people saying Kliff sucks. There are things that Kliff needs to work on but his scheme is low on the list. I have to remember that Kyler would not have been draftable according to Parcells college QB draft model and he is still learning against the best football players in the world. Patience might be a virtue in regards to him but that doesn't mean he isn't as responsible for the success and failure of this team and it's offense as Kliff.

Similarly with Kliff and the end of the season record. It is a valid concern, but you also can't discount that he also coached us to 10 wins, the 5th time this team has had double digit wins since moving to Arizona. It may be a sad fact, but it still matters. And while I do have doubts about how the Kliff era ends in AZ, we have not had a HC tenured for more than 6 years since moving to AZ (whiz) and only two other coaches have stayed for 5 years (Tobin and Arians). He is still a 500 coach and is 42 years old. He is also learning whether we like it or not and sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

I think we all just can take a minute and recognize that you can't ignore the areas for improvement just because things are going well and similarly you can't ignore the positives when things are going bad. Also that we all want this team to win.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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We have 10 wins and are going to the playoffs (first time since 2015). We have a franchise QB. Giddy up!


I would disagree that its a healthy amount of cheering together or an appropriate amount of criticism. People personally attack others and shout them down with negativity if they don't agree. This board wanted KK and VJ fired after year 1, then they liked KK at the beginning of 2020, then they wanted him fired again. 2021 - People loved Keim, KK, and KJ - now people want to fire them and blow up the team for a 3 game losing streak. We had a 7 game winning streak for the first time since 1974 and then we went 10-2. Some people choose to look at the entirety of the season and the progress that has been made each year from 2018 (worst team in the NFL). Some act like they are fans of an NFL dynasty and have zero tolerance for any missed plays, bad decisions, or lost games. That is just not reality. Only 1 team in the NFL wins the Super Bowl each year. We have to crawl, walk, run to get where we want to go and then stay there for a long time. I like the progress that has been made and am very optimistic about the future.
Sorry man, what you did two months ago doesn’t have much bearing on how you’re playing now. I asked a serious question about what gives you optimism for a game played this week and you gave me poppycock. That’s not even Pollyanna reasons, that’s no reason.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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We have 10 wins and are going to the playoffs (first time since 2015). We have a franchise QB. Giddy up!


I would disagree that its a healthy amount of cheering together or an appropriate amount of criticism. People personally attack others and shout them down with negativity if they don't agree. This board wanted KK and VJ fired after year 1, then they liked KK at the beginning of 2020, then they wanted him fired again. 2021 - People loved Keim, KK, and KJ - now people want to fire them and blow up the team for a 3 game losing streak. We had a 7 game winning streak for the first time since 1974 and then we went 10-2. Some people choose to look at the entirety of the season and the progress that has been made each year from 2018 (worst team in the NFL). Some act like they are fans of an NFL dynasty and have zero tolerance for any missed plays, bad decisions, or lost games. That is just not reality. Only 1 team in the NFL wins the Super Bowl each year. We have to crawl, walk, run to get where we want to go and then stay there for a long time. I like the progress that has been made and am very optimistic about the future.
And you can disagree with me about the balance - but you don’t get to set what’s appropriate or not.

Also, the greatest negativity on this board, the greatest volume of attacks on other posters, is the so-called “positive” fans attacking other posters who don’t agree with their zippity-dlo-dah rainbows out their backside blinders perspective. Posters get called whiners, get told to leave the board, have their fandom called out all the freaking time for just posting their take on a player, on a play, on a coach, on the front office, on a game, on a season, or on trends . . . you know, ACTUAL FOOTBALL TOPICS. And those posters never get banned because they’re “positive,” which in reality is a lot of crap because they’re they ones attacking other posters.

If you feel shouted down on a football topic it’s merely because more posters disagree with your perspective than agree. It’s not posters ganging up. It’s each individual posters reading and reacting to what you’re posting. I read and post and reply. I don’t read the entire thread and then reply. I’m sure many other posters do the same. So if you feel you’re getting hanged up on it’s just a reflection that your perspective isn’t shared by a large number of people on the board who just happened at that moment to read your post and decided to respond. You can’t be angry that more people disagree with your perspective than agree with it. It is what it is. Happens to virtually every single poster at some point in time. Happens more to some than others. But it is what it is. Man over this past year I think Solar has taken more heat, on both a football level and as a personal poster, than anyone I can recall on this site and he doesn’t whine about it. He stands up for his perspective, he eats crow when appropriate, and he stays true to himself and as a fan of the cardinals. So buck up, if Solar can take it - and he’s taken a lot more than you have had to deal with here - anyone can. If you think anyone is too negative for you use the damn ignore button. I use it for a few posters who I believe don’t add anything of value and it enhances my use of ASFN tenfold.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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To be fair, a "scathing indictment" from an un credited source, on a website called "fansided" (alluding to being no more in the know than any of us), that is in desperate need of someone with some editing skills.
Absolutely. Point taken. Are you suggesting those likely aren’t real nfl sources?
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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There is truth to this. I can be as critical of Kyler as probably anyone on this board but I do so knowing that he has the ability to be even better. I just get a bit worn out when I watch Kyler underperform in regards to his ability and then hear people saying Kliff sucks. There are things that Kliff needs to work on but his scheme is low on the list. I have to remember that Kyler would not have been draftable according to Parcells college QB draft model and he is still learning against the best football players in the world. Patience might be a virtue in regards to him but that doesn't mean he isn't as responsible for the success and failure of this team and it's offense as Kliff.

Similarly with Kliff and the end of the season record. It is a valid concern, but you also can't discount that he also coached us to 10 wins, the 5th time this team has had double digit wins since moving to Arizona. It may be a sad fact, but it still matters. And while I do have doubts about how the Kliff era ends in AZ, we have not had a HC tenured for more than 6 years since moving to AZ (whiz) and only two other coaches have stayed for 5 years (Tobin and Arians). He is still a 500 coach and is 42 years old. He is also learning whether we like it or not and sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

I think we all just can take a minute and recognize that you can't ignore the areas for improvement just because things are going well and similarly you can't ignore the positives when things are going bad. Also that we all want this team to win.
Good post. I agree with all of it.

Curious your thoughts on the following hypothetical scenario:

We lose out, or beat a completely moribund Seattle team in unimpressive fashion to close out the year and lose in first round.

We retain kliff due to the valid reasons (improve each season, made playoffs, younger coaches still learning).

Next year is the same hot start and back season fade and playoff flameout.

Does that establish enough of a pattern to say he’s reached his ceiling? He’s the guy that could get our team here but can’t get us to the next step. Or is his youth still enough of a crutch to say he can still improve? How much leash do you (not asking what you think cardinals will do - I doubt they can a two-time playoff coach) give him?
 

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Couldn't agree more. When I initially found this board (2002), I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. I started following this team in 1964, so I was a diehard for 40 years without even knowing another Cardinal fan. Listening to the whiners on this board is draining & only pushes me away from visiting this board more frequently. I'm not here to pick fights with the chicken littles on this board. It's exhausting hearing the "we're all rooting for the Cardinals to win", but realistically, WE SUCK. It gets old. And I'm getting too old to listen to it. To each their own though.
Lol... you have just absolutely zero self awareness.

Talk football instead of about other fans.
 
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TheCardFan

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If you feel shouted down on a football topic it’s merely because more posters disagree with your perspective than agree.

Except its not the majority of posters actually and its not just me. It happens regularly to other people.

Recently, its been 95% you and Stout. That is hardly the majority of posters my friend.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Except its not the majority of posters actually and its not just me. It happens regularly to other people.

Recently, its been 95% you and Stout. That is hardly the majority of posters my friend.
Who said majority? And if it’s just me and stout it’s because we disagree with you and you and are disagreeing with us. Are only you allowed to disagree with us? We aren’t allowed to disagree with you? And yet you are allowed to attack us (now that I know your attack is aimed solely at me and stout) as posters when all we’ve done is respond with football-related discussion. Kinda hypocritical.
 

dreamcastrocks

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Couldn't agree more. When I initially found this board (2002), I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. I started following this team in 1964, so I was a diehard for 40 years without even knowing another Cardinal fan. Listening to the whiners on this board is draining & only pushes me away from visiting this board more frequently. I'm not here to pick fights with the chicken littles on this board. It's exhausting hearing the "we're all rooting for the Cardinals to win", but realistically, WE SUCK. It gets old. And I'm getting too old to listen to it. To each their own though.

Go back and read the Cardinal Guidelines of the board. They have been there since its existence.

The following activities will not be tolerated:

- Aggression or annoyance towards any member whether in forums or private messages. Debate the idea, don't attack the poster. Calling out others for not being fans will earn you a short rest.

'Darksiders' are criticized for debating plays/coaches/players/management etc. It's kinda their thing. There's NOTHING wrong with it either. They aren't breaking any rules and bring real insight and color.

If you think you might be getting 'too old to listen to it,' there are several things you can do, including putting separate posters on ignore. There should be plenty of room for people you agree with and MORE for the ones you don't.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Go back and read the Cardinal Guidelines of the board. They have been there since its existence.

The following activities will not be tolerated:

- Aggression or annoyance towards any member whether in forums or private messages. Debate the idea, don't attack the poster. Calling out others for not being fans will earn you a short rest.

'Darksiders' are criticized for debating plays/coaches/players/management etc. It's kinda their thing. There's NOTHING wrong with it either. They aren't breaking any rules and bring real insight and color.

If you think you might be getting 'too old to listen to it,' there are several things you can do, including putting separate posters on ignore. There should be plenty of room for people you agree with and MORE for the ones you don't.
Amen DCR. There are a ton of posters with whom I disagree. I believe that to be readily evident. But truth is I wouldn’t have the opportunity to discuss football if not for them. And sometimes I’m even convinced to softe, or gasp, even change my opinion or perspective on something by those people. There are some posters who don’t want to actually talk football and I put them on ignore and life is good on the board. Even if I think some posters are deluded I appreciate them taking the time to post their opinion.
 

TJ

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The Cards arent those teams Cheesy. Try to pay attention. I said we dont have the depth like those teams do that's the reason we cant compete when we start losing our key players. Besides, we had the chance to beat GB if Green turned around in the endzone. We could have beat the Colts as ****** as we were playing if Prater wasnt struggling with a new holder. I also said IF we get players back for the playoffs we could make some noise. Sorry if my optimism goes against the grain on this board I just dont give up and lay down.
Tangible facts:

-Kliff has a history of closing out seasons with a sub .500 record, pros and college, dating back to 2013
-Kyler’s stats dwindle considerably in the second half of seasons, and he always has some sort of nagging injury
-Since 2013, Keim has only had one first-round pick who’s been selected to a pro bowl (Kyler)
-Keim also has only one first-round pick who’s signed a multi-year extension (Hump)
-Our current first-round pick’s crowning achievement was recovering an onside kick
-The Cardinals haven’t won the division since 2015

I appreciate you balancing the doubt with optimism, but there are plenty of reasons for us to be rationally skeptical about how this year is ending
 

TheCardFan

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Who said majority? And if it’s just me and stout it’s because we disagree with you and you and are disagreeing with us. Are only you allowed to disagree with us? We aren’t allowed to disagree with you? And yet you are allowed to attack us (now that I know your attack is aimed solely at me and stout) as posters when all we’ve done is respond with football-related discussion. Kinda hypocritical.

Your argument has now driven into a ditch.

I am going to let it go.
 

TheCardFan

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'Darksiders' are criticized for debating plays/coaches/players/management etc. It's kinda their thing. There's NOTHING wrong with it either. They aren't breaking any rules and bring real insight and color.

Is there a section protecting CoolAiders as well? Just asking. :shrug:

Love the diversity of opinion and years of Cardinal knowledge on this board. Is there a point where there is too much negativity being passed off as ok because its just "Darksiders" being "Darksiders"? Especially in years like this one - 6th 10 win season in 70 years (IIRC). Some of us would like to enjoy that and having a franchise QB a bit more...it's been a LONG time.
 

dreamcastrocks

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Is there a section protecting CoolAiders as well? Just asking. :shrug:

Love the diversity of opinion and years of Cardinal knowledge on this board. Is there a point where there is too much negativity being passed off as ok because its just "Darksiders" being "Darksiders"? Especially in years like this one - 6th 10 win season in 70 years (IIRC). Some of us would like to enjoy that and having a franchise QB a bit more...it's been a LONG time.

They typically aren't the ones that need protecting. It is the Koolaiders wondering why people are complaining because there are positives to be had. If EVERYONE debated the topic and not the poster, this wouldn't ever be an issue.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Is there a section protecting CoolAiders as well? Just asking. :shrug:

Love the diversity of opinion and years of Cardinal knowledge on this board. Is there a point where there is too much negativity being passed off as ok because its just "Darksiders" being "Darksiders"? Especially in years like this one - 6th 10 win season in 70 years (IIRC). Some of us would like to enjoy that and having a franchise QB a bit more...it's been a LONG time.
No one attacks you as a poster for your view. We disagree with your football take. You are literally now asking for a rule that “protects” you from people’s football opinions with which you disagree. Smdh
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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They typically aren't the ones that need protecting. It is the Koolaiders wondering why people are complaining because there are positives to be had. If EVERYONE debated the topic and not the poster, this wouldn't ever be an issue.
Exactly. It’s an evenly worded rule that protects both sides. Unfortunately there’s virtually always only one side that needs the rule invoked against them to protect the other. And weirdly enough it’s the allegedly “positive” posters.
 

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