Who wants to protect Raja against haters on another forum?

[Nasser22]

Anyone have anything to say to this reply? This is your chance to come help me...

I keep bringing up Kobe because you keep saying he did a very good job on him. I'm sory but going for over 40PPG on a better shooting % than his season average is NOT doing a very good job on him, I don't care what team you are on or who is defending you, that's unacceptable. Once again, players like Mac, players like Iverson, players like Bron, they ALL have 6-18 like shooting nights every once in awhile. That is what happens with dynamic scorers who take mostly jumpshots. And as I keep saying, Raja is a good defender, and did a decent job on Kobe, that's it.

Please, explain how those stats are a joke? Please I'd love to hear.... Again, Bell is a solid, good defender who does a good job of sticking his man, hustling, and tries to use his dirty tricks to get into the heads of players. All of that equals a good defender to me. What makes a great defender? Being versatile, being one of the best at one aspect of your game, showing consistently you can shutdown other opposing superstars, getting defensive stats like SPG/BPG/forced TO's, and being such a presence that you can TOTALLY change the game with your defense by hyping team up and by changing a team's mentality. Bell doesn't fit into one of those categories, while Artest/Bowen/Prince/Kidd/B. Wallace/Duncan/KG/G. Wallace/Kobe/Kirileinko/Camby/Zo and others do. You think he is top 15? On top of those 12 players, I'd also put Hinrich, Billups, Iggy, Chandler, Battier, Okafur, Howard, Nocioni and others over him.

Yes he did connect on elbows, but not nearly as frequently as you say, and none of which were very out of the norm of what Kobe usually does. And you HAVE to admit Bell flopped on quite a few of them.
Yes, Bowen is helped by that, but he is still a much better defender, and that is clearly apparent when you watch the 2 in games.

As for the quote, while Ginobli did say that it didn't translate into fact this season. Ginobli put up 17PPG on 53% shooting, as opposed to how say Hinrich's D translated to stopping Wade, how Prince's D translated to stopping Bron, and how Bowen's D translated into stopping Kobe. Part of me believes that he may have gave him such high praise because they have same agent and Bell just signed a new contract with the Suns.

 

[elindholm]

Looks pretty accurate to me. I'd drop it.

 

[George O'Brien]

It is probably a good thing that Karl Malone didn't stay with the Lakers longer, because he could have taught Kobe how to use elbows are deadly weapons.

It's curious that throwing a punch, even if it doesn't connect is an automatic technical, but throwing an elbow even when it connects is not. Maybe it's just me, but I think getting hit by an elbow is likely to cause more damage than a punch.

I'm not talking about inadvertant elbows. I've seen guys turn around quickly and hit players they didn't know were there. It should still be called, but deliberately throwing elbows should be treated as throwing punches.

 

[Nasser22]

Looks pretty accurate to me. I'd drop it.

I don't leave debates about the Suns though. I'm saying he's about a top 15 or 16 defender and I don't even think he has him in the top 25. I hate when Raja gets no credit for the good games he had vs. Kobe but is called overrated because Kobe had 2 or 3 good games OUT OF 9. Kobe also had a good game against Bowen. If Bowen played him 9 times he would've had the same amount of success as Raja.

 

[Esther]

About the Raja/Kobe thing:
I like Rajas shooting and defense, but ever since he tackled Kobe, my opinion of him has gone down the toilet. I dont what Kobe does to you on the floor, there is no need for that garbage, purely unacceptable.

Quite the opposite, I started to really appreciate Bell's character after the Kobe incident. And just to be clear, I by no means advocate violence or even vengence. But I do advocate making a statement when you need to, and I personally feel that's what Raja did, although not in an acceptable manner.

I have posted around the internet on this but I will say it agian here. THAT CLOTHELINE WAS NOT A DIRTY MOVE. My definition of dirty is pulling an illegal/dishonorable move that helps your team to win, in the hope that the refs won't see you, i.e. Reggie Evans. A thuggish move is trying to assert your supremecy over another through pure brute force, i.e. Kwame Brown to Diaw. What Raja did was neither of the above. (Unless you have a different definition for dirty, in which case we don't have the same premise) The clotheline was intented to put Kobe on the floor but I believe it was not intended to cause injury (Raja went for the shoulder, not the throat, otherwise Kobe wouldn't have been able to get up and smile.) It certainly did not help the Suns, and it certainly was not trying to avoid the eyes of the refs. Raja was making a statement that he will not be pushed around, did it wide in the open knowing full well the consequence he will have to face, and accepted the consequence like a man. It was a very stupid move, considering the Suns situation. But I do not see how that is a dirty move.

Of course I do not think Raja's action is justified, and he admitted it himself that he lost his head. I would agree he lacks self-control but I wouldn't look down on his character because of this incident.

Also, I am sick of people who said they watched the videos and did not see Kobe elbow Raja. It's only logical to know that not all the elbowing are caught on video. I personally think it's more logical to believe that Raja did get elbowed and lost his head than to take a wild guess as to why he would want to pull a clotheline like that and hurt the Suns for no reason.


Esther

 

[elindholm]

I don't leave debates about the Suns though.

That's not a valid logical position. Your emotional connection to the Suns isn't relevant in the debate, because it isn't shared by your opponent. A basic stipulation of any debate is to agree on certain shared principles. If your entire position depends on being a Suns fan, you'll never convince anyone of anything.

You can't "win" a debate if the subjective elements (opinion) can't be pinned down and the objective elements (facts) are against you. Your ultimate pursuit should be the truth. Thank the other person for the discussion, acknowledge that it's a disagreement that comes down to personal opinion, and move on.

 

[Nasser22]

That's not a valid logical position. Your emotional connection to the Suns isn't relevant in the debate, because it isn't shared by your opponent. A basic stipulation of any debate is to agree on certain shared principles. If your entire position depends on being a Suns fan, you'll never convince anyone of anything.

You can't "win" a debate if the subjective elements (opinion) can't be pinned down and the objective elements (facts) are against you. Your ultimate pursuit should be the truth. Thank the other person for the discussion, acknowledge that it's a disagreement that comes down to personal opinion, and move on.

But his argument is stupid. Not giving credit to Raja for anything he did and overrating other players defensive abilities. I think Raja is better than Kidd or Igoudala. Raja did as well as anyone on Kobe and the bad game vs. Allen was when Allen played 51 minutes and was in the zome and impossible to stop.

 

[Mainstreet]

But his argument is stupid. Not giving credit to Raja for anything he did and overrating other players defensive abilities. I think Raja is better than Kidd or Igoudala. Raja did as well as anyone on Kobe and the bad game vs. Allen was when Allen played 51 minutes and was in the zome and impossible to stop.

The best argument concerning Kobe scoring a lot of points against Raja is this. Kobe forgot about that basketball is a team game and that he negatively impacted the play of his team by stroking his ego... scoring a lot of points. Actually, I think the Suns want Kobe to score a lot of points so he makes the rest of the players on the Lakers a non-factor.

IMO, Kobe especially made scoring a personal issue against Raja. Actually Kobe can score a lot of points against almost any defender because he is such a talent... but at what cost to his team? Raja got inside Kobe's head... so let him prove he can win the game all by himself. Great individual stats does not always correlate with good team play and wins.

It seems like in game #7 Kobe did not know what to do to win so he resorted to pouting and refusing to score in the second half. It seemed like he picked up his toys and decided to go home for the summer.

 

[Nasser22]

Well, I think Kobe scored under his season average every game in the playoffs when Bell was playing so I couldn't really say that. I think Bell did a good job on him but he's using the little highlight video on youtube, the Kobe will have off-nights excuse, and Kobe passed the ball excuse.

 

[elindholm]

There's a lot of revisionist history going on here. The Suns were much more accomplished in the regular season and appeared "on paper" to be the superior team. But the Lakers rose to the occasion and played the Suns to a draw over the first six games, with Bryant leading the way.

If you want, you can say that Bell is a good, or a bad, defender because Bryant did score a lot of points, or you can say that Bell is a good, or a bad, defender because Bryant didn't score a lot of points. But all that posturing won't change the bottom line: It was Bell who lost his head and got himself suspended, and the series ended up being much closer than almost anyone thought it would be.

Up until Game 7, Bryant clearly won his matchup with Bell. Get over it. He's a great player and that's what great players should do. Now Game 7 is another matter, and I won't pretend to know what caused Bryant's meltdown. It might have been Bell, but it looked to me like there were a whole lot of factors that went much deeper.

 

[Mainstreet]

Well, I think Kobe scored under his season average every game in the playoffs when Bell was playing so I couldn't really say that. I think Bell did a good job on him but he's using the little highlight video on youtube, the Kobe will have off-nights excuse, and Kobe passed the ball excuse.

Kobe quit in game #7... no if, and, or but. Kobe's only agenda in game #7 was to make his teammates look bad so he looked good in comparison. How many shots did Kobe take in the second half... maybe two or three. Kobe had open looks within the flow of the game in the second half and could have given his team a chance to win, but no... he quit. Since when did Kobe turn into this pass first PG?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Come on Eric, let the kid earn his internet lumps. I am sure he will figure it out without old codgers like us trying to set him straight

 

[Nasser22]

Is it that outrageous to say that Raja Bell is at least a top 20 defender and he should get a little more credit for his defense on Kobe instead of it just being ignored?

 

[Nash]

Is it that outrageous to say that Raja Bell is at least a top 20 defender and he should get a little more credit for his defense on Kobe instead of it just being ignored?

Nasser, dude its nice to have a kid like you on the board. Its fun to see the passion with which you take up the cudgels to defend the Suns/Raja.

I took a look at the debate (if you can call it that) at the link you'd posted. Like many pointed out, there are some guys out there who are impervious to reason and will find a way to argue for the sake of it. By the same token, you too have put yourself in a tough position to prove that Bell is a top notch defender, no matter what the haters may say. Mainstreet put things in perspective very nicely in one of his earlier posts in this thread. I second him.

Its just that you will realise at a point that you're talking to a bunch of morons and its just a waste of your time. <thats a skill you will pick up pretty soon, esp If you have run-ins with such morons regularly>

btw, just for the record I think Bell is a top 10-15 defender. Until he becomes the kind of guy who can lock down opponents (you can't include guys like Kobe, TMac etc in this) on a regular basis, his haters will have something to argue against him.

 

[Nasser22]

Well the ones that stayed around to post weren't idiots. They are actually pretty knowledgable about the NBA. It's the random Lakers fans and the others who made one post who are the idiots.

 

[msdundee]

No need to reiterate, Esther's post reflects my thinking exactly, and we're not alone.

Heavy and heated controversy over Raja's flagrant was fueled by a couple of things: it was a playoff series with a lot at stake, and the recipient was Kobe. Kwame floored Diaw and followed it up with a taunt -- no big deal. Luke Walton's undercut beneath the hoop even upset his dad calling the game -- no big deal.

So Kobe jumped up from the floor grinning. If that play "sickened" anyone, it might be a good idea for that person to give up watching basketball. I've seen a whole lot worse fouls that resulted in serious injuries, some ending a player's season.

Raja was suspended for a game, which he deserved, and they played the next one without him. It may have been coincidental but in that game Kobe's elbow sent Barbosa to the locker room for 6 stitches on his lip. Some said Leandro was guarding too close (?). I tend to think that was Kobe's payback -- no big deal.

 

[George O'Brien]

There does seem to be a lot of extranious stuff in this discussion. No one thinks that Raja should have lost his temper any more than thinking that Kobe is justified in clobbering people just because they try to defend him.

If the issue is whether Raja is a tough defender, I'd say he is. Is he a great defender? I'd say he is a level below Artest, Bowen, and Prince. These guys are considered defensive superstars. Much of this is due to him being smaller than these guys (Prince is 6'9" and Artest weighs 260 pounts), but for whatever reason he's probably not at that level.

Still, I think Raja may be in the second tier. He plays hard every time down the floor and certainly gets under the skin of opponents with how tight he plays.