Where the credit and blame should go

[Shane]

Skkorp,

Sorry but that is some nice spin to put on it. Graves is ultimately responsible as the GM I agree. But anyone that doesnt place blame squarely on Greens shoulders as well is fooling themselves!

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I like how everyone is blaming certain people for the failures of a FA period that started about 48 hours ago and is nowhere close to being complete. What a joke.

 

[vikesfan]

Mr. Graves I mean nidan I love your posts very thought provoking they always make me think.

Look one more time DG does not have the authority to go to John Wade and give him 12 million dollars to come to Zona.

It is ludicrous to blame DG.

Look when they teams loses 10 games you can pick apart his coaching decisions for days and days.

If he gets named GM then yes blame him for FA mistakes he makes.

But to blame him in any way for this is ludicrous.

A coach doesn't have the right to supercede the GM and the Owner and go to a player and sign him as a FA.

DG said what he wants I have reprinted the checklist over and over.

 

[green machine]

Originally posted by MaoTosiFanClub
I like how everyone is blaming certain people for the failures of a FA period that started about 48 hours ago and is nowhere close to being complete. What a joke.

Amen!

 

[JeffGollin]

I like how everyone is blaming certain people for the failures of a FA period that started about 48 hours ago and is nowhere close to being complete. What a joke.
Mao - Same concerns were voiced a year ago. And they elicited the same response as your one above.

And it is true that our FA signings a year ago came all in one burst.

But in the end, we didn't sign any corners (and got shredded in coverage last year), didn't replace Boston with a premier wideout and didn't sign a pass rusher (which forced us to to trade down in an effort to compensate for our failure to solve both problems in free agency).

This despite the promises of "wait til after the draft", "wait til after June 1" and "don't judge us until you see what we put on the field."

If it wasn't for our going through the gut wrenching experience of last year's off season, I'd agree with you that our impatience is "a joke." But the very early returns of this off-season seem very similar to a year ago.

 

[red desert]

Originally posted by Stout
Problem is, sure, we got some quality signings...but we didn't land who we REALLY needed in FA...an impact, pass-rushing DE. In that, last year was a FA failure...because we didn't fix it in FA OR in the draft.

If we repeat this year...well, that would speak more than volumes about Graves.

Agreed. Last year's signing are nothing to write home about.

 

[Duckjake]

Originally posted by Stout
Nidan, quite simply, please answer this question:

What DE will we be able to put on the field next year to provide a pass rush?

Thank you. If you can pull one from somewhere, you'll be able to do what is now well-nigh impossible. Berry's probably the only guy left, unless we find a lucky gem in the draft.

What are you talking about? The Cards will have Dennis Johnson and Calvin Pace and Kenny King and "as good as anyone they have" Fred Wakefield and KVB coming back. They are all young and only need more playing time and decent coaching to develop into all-pro caliber players with 25 sacks between them every year. Why in the world would they need another DE?

After all the defense always plays great. The problem is the offense keeps putting them in a hole or leaving them on the field to long.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Jeff-
I understand everyone's impatience, I'm the same way. Checking here often and listening to 1060 for constant updates in hope of a signing. But at the same time I realize it's a long process and I'll make my judgment at the end of it just as I did last year, when I was critical of Graves for not signing the biggest name Roosevelt Colvin.

That's the only player from last year's FA class that I'm honestly disappointed we didn't get. People on this board are still crying about not signing Holliday last year. Well, if we signed him we would only have $5 million to spend this year and we would be stuck with a fat contact of a very average lineman. People are also crying about not signing Shawn Springs. Did you really want to sign this guy to that big of a contract on his potential talent?

I'm not on the kool-aid, I'm just waiting until the end of FA, that's it. If we're still stuck with a mediocre team(which is likely,$8-10 million is not enough to fix this team) and Rod didn't accomplish the team goals of free agency I'll be critical then but only then. By the way, I didn't see Patriots fans running for the razors when they started 1-2.

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

Originally posted by nidan
It would be pretty daft to pay him all that $$ then not listen to him.

Excellent use of the word "daft"! I really enjoy listening to British vocabulary. You Brits pull words out of your lexicon that most Americans rarely use, or even know the definition for.

But then again...I am really quite mad!



As for the Free Agency shenanigans, this is just like last year. I've riden that emotional roller-coaster enough, thank you. So I wont be screaming my head off about this.

The Cardinals will sign some significant free agents.

My prediction is that a pass-rush DE (Wistrom, or Hicks), a cover CB, and a journeyman OL will be signed within the next week.

After that, it will be all "sweetness and light" until after the draft.

ps: Sorry if I'm making sense, as I am rather unaccustomed to it. But, by all means, continue to carry on...

 

[justAndy]

...

as long as the stench of Bidwill Sr lingers over our team we will have a hard time getting ANYTHING done...

 

[Stout]

Originally posted by Cardinals.Ken
My prediction is that a pass-rush DE (Wistrom, or Hicks), a cover CB, and a journeyman OL will be signed within the next week.

After that, it will be all "sweetness and light" until after the draft.

ps: Sorry if I'm making sense, as I am rather unaccustomed to it. But, by all means, continue to carry on...

A few problems in your logic here:

1-Wistrom is a Seahawk...scratch him from your list.

2-If we're content with Hicks as our big-name pass-rushing end, we're in deep doo-doo

3-If Macklin ends up being our big cover-corner signing, we're in deep doo doo. There are a few really good CBs out there we could use that I don't think we even have scheduled for visits.

4-I like the journeyman OL idea, as long as it's a guard or RT that can play.

 

[Stout]

Originally posted by Duckjake
What are you talking about? The Cards will have Dennis Johnson and Calvin Pace and Kenny King and "as good as anyone they have" Fred Wakefield and KVB coming back. They are all young and only need more playing time and decent coaching to develop into all-pro caliber players with 25 sacks between them every year. Why in the world would they need another DE?

After all the defense always plays great. The problem is the offense keeps putting them in a hole or leaving them on the field to long.

Sadly, Duck, after we fail to address this need position, I think that's EXACTLY what management will be telling us...ugh.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Re: Re: Where the credit and blame should go

Originally posted by lrk27
For the most part, you have it right on their situation. But here is the bottom line: Rod Graves makes the calls. Dennis Green and scouts give input. All credit AND blame goes to Graves 1st, then the staff that he has assembled. Players aren't coming here to play for Rod Graves. If they don't sign here, partial blame goes to Dennis Green for not selling his philosophy. You seem to have a basic idea of the front office, but you're contradicting yourself with assigning blame and credit. Graves and Michael are running the show. DG is helping, but does not yet have the power that he would like to have. He will give his input, but his job is to win with what Graves & Co. provide him with. He knows that and has accepted that.

dude, you're new. unless you happen to work in or around the cards' front office, or happen to be related to a bidwill, you probably aren't privy to the kind of info that skorp has at his fingertips. i'd be much more inclined to go w/ skorp's account of things.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
I like how everyone is blaming certain people for the failures of a FA period that started about 48 hours ago and is nowhere close to being complete. What a joke.
Mao - Same concerns were voiced a year ago. And they elicited the same response as your one above.

And it is true that our FA signings a year ago came all in one burst.

But in the end, we didn't sign any corners (and got shredded in coverage last year), didn't replace Boston with a premier wideout and didn't sign a pass rusher (which forced us to to trade down in an effort to compensate for our failure to solve both problems in free agency).

This despite the promises of "wait til after the draft", "wait til after June 1" and "don't judge us until you see what we put on the field."

If it wasn't for our going through the gut wrenching experience of last year's off season, I'd agree with you that our impatience is "a joke." But the very early returns of this off-season seem very similar to a year ago.

a-friggin-men brotha! that's it exactly! that, and well, the fact that this year all the fa's seemed to sign bursting from the gates. if that's the game this year rod needed to adapt. he didn't (as far as we know). just goes to show another shortcoming (IMHO).

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Originally posted by MaoTosiFanClub
) By the way, I didn't see Patriots fans running for the razors when they started 1-2.

that's b/c that 1-2 didn't invariably lead to 10+ losses per season.

 

[Sandan]

Re: Re: Re: Where the credit and blame should go

Originally posted by Ouchie-Z-Clown
dude, you're new. unless you happen to work in or around the cards' front office, or happen to be related to a bidwill, you probably aren't privy to the kind of info that skorp has at his fingertips. i'd be much more inclined to go w/ skorp's account of things.

Ouchie is right, Skorp isn't guessing.

Also in addition to what we know about the process, you also need to figure in what we know about Rod Graves.

It is utterly inconcovable that the Rod Graves we have been talking to this year would not listen to Green.

All this talk about "who makes the final call" or "Who has the power" ignore the way Rod Graves appears to operate. Everything I have seen leads me to believe he is a concenous builder, rather than a dictator.

I think Skorp is right on, Rod makes the final call but I would expect that call to be the one Dennis Green wants him to make.

This is how I have run business for years, get a good person, give them responsilbility and back their decisions. I focus more on are they making good decisions and either help them or replace them (as Rod did this year with the coaches). As the man with the veto you should rarely be second guessing otherwise you have the wrong people in place as we did last year.

 

[JeffGollin]

It is utterly inconcovable that the Rod Graves we have been talking to this year would not listen to Green. I think Skorp is right on, Rod makes the final call but I would expect that call to be the one Dennis Green wants him to make.
Sounds right. But it's moot.

From the standpoint of accountability, they must be considered "joined together at the hip." Any decision - good or bad - will reflect equally on both of them.

The focus needn't therefore be on who's calling the shots, but what those shots turn out to be.

(note - I just deleted a smarmy aside about "having not seen any shots yet" out of respect for Denny and Rod - and the hope that something good will break pdq).

 

[Sandan]

My point exactly, it isn't Rod vs Dennis, they are a team in this effort

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by nidan
My point exactly, it isn't Rod vs Dennis, they are a team in this effort

But Rod may end up the fall guy.

Edit: I say that because if the offseason falls short, Denny will make his power push and Graves will either get booted altogether or re-assigned with the org.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Originally posted by nidan
My point exactly, it isn't Rod vs Dennis, they are a team in this effort

"effort?"

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Ouchie-Z-Clown
"effort?"

 

[lrk27]

Re: Re: Re: Where the credit and blame should go

Originally posted by Ouchie-Z-Clown
dude, you're new. unless you happen to work in or around the cards' front office, or happen to be related to a bidwill, you probably aren't privy to the kind of info that skorp has at his fingertips. i'd be much more inclined to go w/ skorp's account of things.

Being "new" to a message board means nothing about what I know and don't know. Go with whatever info you want.

Originally posted by nidan
Ouchie is right, Skorp isn't guessing.

Also in addition to what we know about the process, you also need to figure in what we know about Rod Graves.

It is utterly inconcovable that the Rod Graves we have been talking to this year would not listen to Green.

All this talk about "who makes the final call" or "Who has the power" ignore the way Rod Graves appears to operate. Everything I have seen leads me to believe he is a concenous builder, rather than a dictator.

I think Skorp is right on, Rod makes the final call but I would expect that call to be the one Dennis Green wants him to make.

This is how I have run business for years, get a good person, give them responsilbility and back their decisions. I focus more on are they making good decisions and either help them or replace them (as Rod did this year with the coaches). As the man with the veto you should rarely be second guessing otherwise you have the wrong people in place as we did last year.

You're just proving my point about Graves. I never insinuated that Skorp was guessing, merely that he was only partially right. I know that you have good information, but that doesn't make you the only ones with any information. Trust me, I have plenty of access to info and in the long run, I think my accuracy will speak for itself.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the credit and blame should go

Originally posted by lrk27
Being "new" to a message board means nothing about what I know and don't know. Go with whatever info you want.



You're just proving my point about Graves. I never insinuated that Skorp was guessing, merely that he was only partially right. I know that you have good information, but that doesn't make you the only ones with any information. Trust me, I have plenty of access to info and in the long run, I think my accuracy will speak for itself.

ah, you misunderstood . . . when i referenced you're being new to the board i wasn't saying that you were ignorant, but rather, was pointing out that b/c you were new you might not know the strings to the organization that skorp has.

and, if you are privy to additional insider information, then all the better! hope you post often with such information!

 

[SECTION 11]

lrk's got some connections.

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
lrk's got some connections.

Yeah, whatever...

on a side note, what's the deal with Kerouac's new sig!?!?!?!?