Where the credit and blame should go

[Skkorpion]

Sigh. I'm going to try again. Without listing who told me what, this is the situation:

1. The Bidwills are not hamstringing Dennis Green and Rod Graves. If we end up with a talent-poor team, blame Rod Graves alone, and I'll tell you why shortly.

2. Rod Graves tries to give Dennis Green everything he asks for. Green has tremendous influence on everything - the type of people we covet, which positions they play, and even which specific players we pursue.

But the final choices and the execution of the plan are Rod's responsibilities. In a very real way, this is how credit and blame should be assessed here:

1. If the free agents pan out, credit should go to Dennis Green and Rodd Newhouse because Green will have identified the players he wants and Newhouse is the head scout for players currently on NFL rosters.

2. If free agents don't pan out or don't come here at all, blame should go to Rod Graves. He chose the coach, he executed the plan, or failed to execute it.

3. The same goes for the draft. This is Rod Graves' scouting staff, put together last May and June. Denny Green will have tremendous sway here too, but if the draft sucks, Graves will be to blame. He assembled the scouts, chose the coach, and executed the plan.

Graves has chosen to let Denny Green have huge input into everything. If it doesn't work out, only one man had the final decision.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
If it doesn't work out, only one man had the final decision.

Yeah, the guy that hired Graves, right?

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
Sigh. I'm going to try again. Without listing who told me what, this is the situation:

1. The Bidwills are not hamstringing Dennis Green and Rod Graves. If we end up with a talent-poor team, blame Rod Graves alone, and I'll tell you why shortly.

2. Rod Graves tries to give Dennis Green everything he asks for. Green has tremendous influence on everything - the type of people we covet, which positions they play, and even which specific players we pursue.

But the final choices and the execution of the plan are Rod's responsibilities. In a very real way, this is how credit and blame should be assessed here:

1. If the free agents pan out, credit should go to Dennis Green and Rodd Newhouse because Green will have identified the players he wants and Newhouse is the head scout for players currently on NFL rosters.

2. If free agents don't pan out or don't come here at all, blame should go to Rod Graves. He chose the coach, he executed the plan, or failed to execute it.

3. The same goes for the draft. This is Rod Graves' scouting staff, put together last May and June. Denny Green will have tremendous sway here too, but if the draft sucks, Graves will be to blame. He assembled the scouts, chose the coach, and executed the plan.

Graves has chosen to let Denny Green have huge input into everything. If it doesn't work out, only one man had the final decision.

Thanks for the info Skorp.

I dont know I want to Blame anyone at this point. We are only2 days into the FA period. I think most people on this board just want an idea of what is happening behind the scenes.

Its frustrating to see the Redskins and Dolphins and Texans, and Bills, and Bears all signing guys immediatly as if they knew who exactly they wanted prior to the FA period started and had contract in hand while the Cards leisurely let the day pass as if it is any other day of the year.

I know Graves is the GM but, like you said, Green has considerable input in recommending players for the draft and FA. I am sure Green insisted on this before he signed a contract, (Although I am of course speculating) and I doubt Green is running down the halls pissed off and screaming b/c Graves isnt bringing in Free Agents. They are both archetects in this plan!

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Wow!

Thanks for the inside information.

But LVDCARDFREAK, ugh, who I will now call freak.

So Freak has the right idea.

Don't start cutting throats untill we see what we got going into next season.

 

[arthurracoon]

Thanks Skkorp!

 

[CardinalChris]

I just would like to see a more "go get 'em" attitude from our front office.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Originally posted by CardinalChris
I just would like to see a more "go get 'em" attitude from our front office.

Observe them during lunch sometime.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

muchas grassy ass skorp!

 

[NavyVet]

This falls along with my theory that Michael Bidwill is not in full control of this team yet, but Dennis Green is his man. I don't believe the love story between Green and Graves. They are two very distinctly different personalities.

Rod Graves is Sr.'s guy and his future with the franchise is on the line this year.

Michael and Dennis are letting Rod hang himself. Dennis will take over as GM. Michael gets full control.

Another year of futility till this plays out.

I hope they prove me wrong.

 

[slanidrac16]

Dudes CHILL OUT!!!

In the past the big name free agents used us as a bargaining tool. The Redskins have done this before and have gone on to totally suck.

There is no way I would have paid Kearse,Bailey,Portis, or Springs the money they recieved.

Do I want to see something signed? Yes, and we will sign some free agents. Would any one of those players have made our team better? Sure. But would any ONE of those players put us in the playoffs? No way.

If I'm an Eagle fan , I'm not jumping for joy yet. Who will be the eagles CB's?
The Redskins replaced Bailey with Shawn Springs, uhh, a little drop in that there , no? With a 10m signing bonus. Absurd.

You can bet Dennis Green is spending many hours on the phone and I'll bet he has his sights set on 2 or 3 guys that will upgrade the position. Be patient.

 

[JeffGollin]

Jim - Thanks for information regarding the tactical infrastructure of the Cardinal front office (which to me sounds fine).

There also appears to be a plan (whatever it might be) in place (No problem with that - you can't give away trade secrets).

The key to all this, however, will be in the execution. And I think we're all getting antsy because, other than scheduled visits, there hasn't been much execution to evaluate.

 

[spanky1]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
Sigh. I'm going to try again. Without listing who told me what, this is the situation:

1. The Bidwills are not hamstringing Dennis Green and Rod Graves. If we end up with a talent-poor team, blame Rod Graves alone, and I'll tell you why shortly.

2. Rod Graves tries to give Dennis Green everything he asks for. Green has tremendous influence on everything - the type of people we covet, which positions they play, and even which specific players we pursue.

But the final choices and the execution of the plan are Rod's responsibilities. In a very real way, this is how credit and blame should be assessed here:

1. If the free agents pan out, credit should go to Dennis Green and Rodd Newhouse because Green will have identified the players he wants and Newhouse is the head scout for players currently on NFL rosters.

2. If free agents don't pan out or don't come here at all, blame should go to Rod Graves. He chose the coach, he executed the plan, or failed to execute it.

3. The same goes for the draft. This is Rod Graves' scouting staff, put together last May and June. Denny Green will have tremendous sway here too, but if the draft sucks, Graves will be to blame. He assembled the scouts, chose the coach, and executed the plan.

Graves has chosen to let Denny Green have huge input into everything. If it doesn't work out, only one man had the final decision.

skkorp,

I have a hard time with this post........eg.....if the FA's pan out, the credit should go to DG......if the FA's don't pan out the blame should go to RG.......

As I read this, RG can't win and DG can't lose.......life isn't this simple is it?

 

[Brevity]

Re: Re: Where the credit and blame should go

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
They are both architects in this plan!

That's a low blow.

 

[40yearfan]

Thanks Skkorp. It's nice to hear a voice of reason amidst all the weeping and wailing and knashing of teeth.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
Jim - Thanks for information regarding the tactical infrastructure of the Cardinal front office (which to me sounds fine).

There also appears to be a plan (whatever it might be) in place (No problem with that - you can't give away trade secrets).

The key to all this, however, will be in the execution. And I think we're all getting antsy because, other than scheduled visits, there hasn't been much execution to evaluate.

on the topic of execution . . .

 

[Stout]

Skkorp, well done. Exactly how I imagined it to be. That's why I've been all over Graves' case thus far, and had to chuckle at those who wanted to get all over Green.

I mean, really, Green probably handed Rod his prioritized 'wish list', but I'm sure he didn't tell him, 'gee, Rod, just go on and wait a few days before ya get started...no hurry.'

 

[lrk27]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
Sigh. I'm going to try again. Without listing who told me what, this is the situation:

1. The Bidwills are not hamstringing Dennis Green and Rod Graves. If we end up with a talent-poor team, blame Rod Graves alone, and I'll tell you why shortly.

2. Rod Graves tries to give Dennis Green everything he asks for. Green has tremendous influence on everything - the type of people we covet, which positions they play, and even which specific players we pursue.

But the final choices and the execution of the plan are Rod's responsibilities. In a very real way, this is how credit and blame should be assessed here:

1. If the free agents pan out, credit should go to Dennis Green and Rodd Newhouse because Green will have identified the players he wants and Newhouse is the head scout for players currently on NFL rosters.

2. If free agents don't pan out or don't come here at all, blame should go to Rod Graves. He chose the coach, he executed the plan, or failed to execute it.

3. The same goes for the draft. This is Rod Graves' scouting staff, put together last May and June. Denny Green will have tremendous sway here too, but if the draft sucks, Graves will be to blame. He assembled the scouts, chose the coach, and executed the plan.

Graves has chosen to let Denny Green have huge input into everything. If it doesn't work out, only one man had the final decision.

For the most part, you have it right on their situation. But here is the bottom line: Rod Graves makes the calls. Dennis Green and scouts give input. All credit AND blame goes to Graves 1st, then the staff that he has assembled. Players aren't coming here to play for Rod Graves. If they don't sign here, partial blame goes to Dennis Green for not selling his philosophy. You seem to have a basic idea of the front office, but you're contradicting yourself with assigning blame and credit. Graves and Michael are running the show. DG is helping, but does not yet have the power that he would like to have. He will give his input, but his job is to win with what Graves & Co. provide him with. He knows that and has accepted that.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Originally posted by 40yearfan
knashing

gnashing

 

[seesred]

I remember last year. It seamed like we would never sign anyone, then pow bang we signed seven or eight guys in one day. Those that signed deals went to one team and one team only, No other team IMO had a chance.

We had two playersvisit today has anyone heard what kind of visits they were? I'll wait till I cry wolf this year.

GBR

 

[Stout]

Originally posted by seesred
I remember last year. It seamed like we would never sign anyone, then pow bang we signed seven or eight guys in one day. Those that signed deals went to one team and one team only, No other team IMO had a chance.

We had two playersvisit today has anyone heard what kind of visits they were? I'll wait till I cry wolf this year.

GBR

Problem is, sure, we got some quality signings...but we didn't land who we REALLY needed in FA...an impact, pass-rushing DE. In that, last year was a FA failure...because we didn't fix it in FA OR in the draft.

If we repeat this year...well, that would speak more than volumes about Graves.

 

[40yearfan]

Originally posted by Brian in Mesa
gnashing

Sorry, I ocassionally type with a lisp.

 

[seesred]

The two guys we were after both came in and were offered more money than they signed for with other teams. Till we turn this corner we are not the glamor franchise. It may take them time but IMO Green will in the end be the difference maker.

Gbr
Our new free agents are out there they just don't realize it yet!

 

[vikesfan]

1. The Bidwells are in charge the buck stops with them.

2. They hired Graves. He along with M Bidwill hired DG.

3. The Bidwells tell Graves how much he can spend on FA upfront bonuses that money comes out of the Bidwill's pockets. They have no other source of income other then the Cards so this money is limited.

4. It looks like DG gave Graves a list. If Graves doesn't fulfill the list it is not DG's fault and it's not EVEN Grave's fault if the Bidwells' limited how much bonus money he was allowed to hand out to players to draw them here.

5. It looks like DG is in charge of some things the Draft and the player moves and non-moves (cutting Blake, making Josh #1, not going after Garcia - Graves makes it sound like DG is in charge). With FA Graves said DG gave him a list. So it looks like Graves is in charge of FA not DG.

6. Who knows who is really in charge and of what. For example DG has done almost all the Draft related stuff he states he believes in BPA and Graves doesn't maybe the draft picks will tell us who was really in charge.

7. TECHNICALLY speaking even if it is obvious that DG was making the draft pick calls (REMEMBER only 1 man can make the final call on a pick) until DG is named GM. Graves should get credit and blame.

8. A couple posters on here suggested this is a set up let Graves screw up another year and then dump him and make DG GM. Maybe who knows.

9. I have heard nothing about DG's million dollar playoffs bonus. How do you know about this please tell me everything you know - is this 100 percent confirmed???

 

[Sandan]

Originally posted by vikesfan
4. It looks like DG gave Graves a list. If Graves doesn't fulfill the list it is not DG's fault and it's not EVEN Grave's fault if the Bidwells' limited how much bonus money he was allowed to hand out to players to draw them here.

Why, based on what, looks like pure guesswork to me

Originally posted by vikesfan
5. It looks like DG is in charge of some things the Draft and the player moves and non-moves (cutting Blake, making Josh #1, not going after Garcia - Graves makes it sound like DG is in charge). With FA Graves said DG gave him a list. So it looks like Graves is in charge of FA not DG.

Again, why. I know nothing about this, so fot you to say you do seems highly unlikely.

Originally posted by vikesfan
6. Who knows who is really in charge and of what. For example DG has done almost all the Draft related stuff he states he believes in BPA and Graves doesn't maybe the draft picks will tell us who was really in charge.

You have knowledge of Rod Graves approach to the draft. Evidence to this point suggests that DG and RG are in agreement. At least that is what they are saying and I see no reason to not believe them.

Why is "Who is really in charge" such a big deal, maybe they are in agreement on the approach so the subject raely comes up.

Originally posted by vikesfan
7. TECHNICALLY speaking even if it is obvious that DG was making the draft pick calls (REMEMBER only 1 man can make the final call on a pick) until DG is named GM. Graves should get credit and blame.

Why is this obvious, (although I agree) you seem to contradict yourself here. I do think taht DG is having a huge input into everything they are doing. It would be pretty daft to pay him all that $$ then not listen to him.

Originally posted by vikesfan

8. A couple posters on here suggested this is a set up let Graves screw up another year and then dump him and make DG

Not true

Originally posted by vikesfan
9. I have heard nothing about DG's million dollar playoffs bonus. How do you know about this please tell me everything you know - is this 100 percent confirmed???

I believe this is a fact, it also suggest that DG believes he can win here doesn't it.

 

[Stout]

Nidan, quite simply, please answer this question:

What DE will we be able to put on the field next year to provide a pass rush?

Thank you. If you can pull one from somewhere, you'll be able to do what is now well-nigh impossible. Berry's probably the only guy left, unless we find a lucky gem in the draft.