What a conundrum

[Russ Smith]

I know it's popular to bash Graves right now over Boston and I can see why but he really is in a bad situation here.

He's got the most money of any team to spend in FA but consider the "terms".

1) Signing bonus is always an issue with us, FA's want bonuses, often 2 tiers(like Jake's deal) we don't like to do that.

2) We have no starting QB and no starting WR's, how do you sell a QB a team with no WR's, how do you sell a WR a team with no QB's? Something has to break the logjam but what?

3) The best way to get in bigname players is to overpay, but that ultimately winds up with a team with little depth, when you play half your games in extreme heat, that makes for a bad recipe for injury.

4) His head coach has a short term contract working for an owner notorious for firing coaches. How do you sell FA's on a team with a coach in that position?

I'm honestly beginning to wonder how the Cards are going to sign anybody, I think we're going to end up getting mainly guys nobody else wants.

So Graves may well be a puppet, but his job is MUCH tougher to do here than it would be elsewhere.

Last week I wasn't so bad I figured we lost one guy I really wanted. But today I'm beginning to think we're going to be the first NFL team in history to be fined for not spending enough of our cap money and we'll be countersuing saying "hey we want to spend it nobody will sign with us!"

 

[jf-08]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
I know it's popular to bash Graves right now over Boston and I can see why but he really is in a bad situation here.

He's got the most money of any team to spend in FA but consider the "terms".

1) Signing bonus is always an issue with us, FA's want bonuses, often 2 tiers(like Jake's deal) we don't like to do that.

2) We have no starting QB and no starting WR's, how do you sell a QB a team with no WR's, how do you sell a WR a team with no QB's? Something has to break the logjam but what?

3) The best way to get in bigname players is to overpay, but that ultimately winds up with a team with little depth, when you play half your games in extreme heat, that makes for a bad recipe for injury.

4) His head coach has a short term contract working for an owner notorious for firing coaches. How do you sell FA's on a team with a coach in that position?

I'm honestly beginning to wonder how the Cards are going to sign anybody, I think we're going to end up getting mainly guys nobody else wants.

So Graves may well be a puppet, but his job is MUCH tougher to do here than it would be elsewhere.

Last week I wasn't so bad I figured we lost one guy I really wanted. But today I'm beginning to think we're going to be the first NFL team in history to be fined for not spending enough of our cap money and we'll be countersuing saying "hey we want to spend it nobody will sign with us!"

I don't think you get KDUS, but the above is EXACTLY what Jurecki was saying this morning.

Even the 'Natti and Detroit are more attrcative to FA because both of those teams have new well - respected coaches who are trying to build a team, and have a plan. It seems that the Cards will be lucky ot sign any big-named FA.

 

[dlovin]

that is exactly what is going to happen. We will sign people, but no one of any worth. No one wants to play here! With the Bidwills as owners, can't blame them.

 

[Dback Jon]

Then what do the Cards do?
Bidwill will not sell - does that mean sacrificing MacGinnis and paying heavily to get a "name" coach - someone that players want to play for and has some power?

 

[SunCityCarl]

Yeah Russ the Cards could give Mac an extension "NOW" & derail this situation, but that won't happen. Maybe Graves has a new head coach in mind to hire? I dunno, I said in an earlier post that if you give Mac no (good) THOROBRED horses he (WE) will have no chance to compete. BTW - How are we doing on that pass rusher thing?? Oh that's right we're waiting ..... still..

And the Aura of losing continues...

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Dback Jon
Then what do the Cards do?
Bidwill will not sell - does that mean sacrificing MacGinnis and paying heavily to get a "name" coach - someone that players want to play for and has some power?

That's what I'm afraid of, we either give Mac a huge new contract to convince guys he's here to stay, or can him for a new coach, and guess what, who the hell wants to coach a team with no starting QB or WR's?

We almost have to extend Mac's contract to sign anybody.

 

[AZCB34]

Memo, to self. Don't book Russ for motivational speeches. LOL

Damn, you hit the nail on the head...sadly. I have said a couple times during the end of the season that this offseason was maybe the most important offseason in memory...even more important than after the 98 season. This would set the tone for maybe the next 5-7 years and thus far...well a big fat goose egg.

The fact that Colvin appears to be shopping himself again, according to the other thread, is disappointing. I believe it was AZCards21 who said the Cards needed a Reggie White type signing and I firmly believed Colvin was that type of signing. Had he signed some other pieces may have fallen into place.

I think the Mac issue may very well be the negative point with the defensive guys they have brought in. He is a lame duck coach who I have said needs 7 wins to save his job next year and the way things are looking, it might be a miracle to get 7 wins. The Bengals are making defensive moves and their team is setting up like the Ravens...killer D and an O that limits mistakes and takes advantage of the plays being made by the D.

The Mac issue may even make it hard to get the QB they want simply because in all likelihood, Mac gets fired as does the rest of the staff and it all starts again. New coaches, new coordinators, new philosophies.

Considering the hope being displayed around here just a few weeks ago, things have really taken a hit.

 

[RedStorm]

I think...all things being equal....FAs will not sign here. We are the bottom of the barrel. Until that changes it will always be like that. We need to get well stocked on young talent that is good. Locked up for a long time. Graves is right about one thing....there is no quick fix....So each year we revise our 3 year plan with another 3 year plan and players jump.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Dback Jon
Then what do the Cards do?
Bidwill will not sell - does that mean sacrificing MacGinnis and paying heavily to get a "name" coach - someone that players want to play for and has some power?

What "name" coach would actually want to come here? After BuddyBall, I cannot imagine a coach getting power around here again. Right now, Mac is being set up to bomb out...maybe by design.

 

[dlovin]

I think that you have the same issues with coaches. If they aren't willing to get any players of any worth, would you want to coach here? They are always going to get rookie coaches who want experience on their resumes and then move on.

I sound like I hate the Cardinals, and I don't. I am a big cards fan, just finally have accepted reality.

Of course, I have moved out of Arizona, and the big team up here is the Broncos ( who I can't stand about as bad as the Cowboys). Here, I can watch other teams and catch the Card highlights (low lights) on ESPN, and hope for the day of new ownership.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by RedStorm
I think...all things being equal....FAs will not sign here. We are the bottom of the barrel. Until that changes it will always be like that. We need to get well stocked on young talent that is good. Locked up for a long time. Graves is right about one thing....there is no quick fix....So each year we revise our 3 year plan with another 3 year plan and players jump.

Which if you go this route, then all those here who want the Cards to trade up are hoping for the impossible. If you are going to build via youth then you need all the picks you can get. Then in a couple years, the Cards are right back where they started...and wouldn't have made the playoffs. Boy oh boy.

 

[Dback Jon]

Originally posted by RedStorm
I think...all things being equal....FAs will not sign here. We are the bottom of the barrel. Until that changes it will always be like that. We need to get well stocked on young talent that is good. Locked up for a long time. Graves is right about one thing....there is no quick fix....So each year we revise our 3 year plan with another 3 year plan and players jump.

But until Cincy hired Lewis, they were the bottom of the barrell, and now they are generating interest.

If it is Graves plan to tear down the team and start from scratch with mostly young guys, then he needs to realize that we will not win much for a few years, and give Mac a long term deal NOW, and let Mac and staff do the rebuilding.

If McGinnes is not in Graves long-term plans, then get rid of him NOW, and stop the bleeding.

 

[SunCityCarl]

I sound like I hate the Cardinals, and I don't. I am a big cards fan, just finally have accepted reality. - DLOVIN

DL, I guess they would call this surrendering? Well I feel exactly the same.....

And The Aura of Losing continues...

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Dback Jon
But until Cincy hired Lewis, they were the bottom of the barrell, and now they are generating interest.

If it is Graves plan to tear down the team and start from scratch with mostly young guys, then he needs to realize that we will not win much for a few years, and give Mac a long term deal NOW, and let Mac and staff do the rebuilding.

If McGinnes is not in Graves long-term plans, then get rid of him NOW, and stop the bleeding.

I would even argue that if the intention is to tear this thing down to it's foundation, then skip trying to even entice these FAs and burn it down. Maybe take a penalty for underspending and really try and treat this like an expansion situation. I know realistically, that won't and can't happen but why bum rush Colvin et al if the real intention is to completely dismantle and rebuild?

 

[TRW]

No extension, see what Mac does next year and then decide. Maybe he's the best there is and the Cards re-sign him (I doubt there would be any other competition for his service as Head Coach). He has done nothing to deserve a longer stay.

Peace!

 

[RLakin]

Originally posted by Dback Jon
, then he needs to realize that we will not win much for a few years.

That's a pretty sad (but true) concession for a team to make in today's competitively balanced NFL.

 

[JeffGollin]

What a conundrum
Well, well, well. Cultured are we? First it's "conundrum." Can words like "plethora" and "hubris" be far behind?

I have no sympathy for Graves. Part of his job is seeing to it that the team doesn't get painted into a corner from a personnel standpoint. If he's allowed himself to fall victim to the realities of NFL free agency in Year 2003, he's a big boy and will have to figure his way out of this mess.

He should have foreseen the impact of not tagging Plummer. (At the very least, tagging him would have given us trade leverage with Denver if we had interest in signing Griese).

The Bills faced a similar dilemma with Peerless Price. But they tagged him and then got a #23 from Atlanta. We got nada for our starting QB.

The "babe in the woods in his first year" tapdance doesn't cut it. In a pivotal year - when you've got (a) a ton of cap money and (b) lots of decisions to make about who to keep, who to cut and who to target - you don't turn over the keys to the Mercedes to an inexperienced person who doesn't know the ropes and what's going down on the street.

I'm hoping Rod is more surefooted than that, and he still has a few things up his sleeve. But the excuses about "look at the situation he inherited!" doesn't impress me one iota.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by TRW
No extension, see what Mac does next year and then decide. Maybe he's the best there is and the Cards re-sign him (I doubt there would be any other competition for his service as Head Coach). He has done nothing to deserve a longer stay.

Peace!

Understood but, coaches get fired all the time.Detroit fired their coach months after saying they wouldn't.

Extend Mac, sign some players so he has a fair chance, and then evaluate him. If he fails, bring in a new coach, at least you have the players signed.

May sound harsh but i don't see any other way out of this. I'm sure players see Boston and Jake gone and wonder why would I want to play there, but I really think Colvin's stand is pretty obvious, why would I sign with Mac's team, if Mac won't be there beyond this coming season?

Once he signs, even if Mac does get fired, you've got a signed contract.

Dbackjon's point about Marvin Lewis is exactly what I'm getting at, the players think Cincy is going to stick with him for a bit, so they're willing to take more money to sign there.

 

[AntSports Steve]

I belive Jericky suggested on the Radio a way out of this mess.

Sign Coach Mac to a new deal (multiple years) and include in the fine print, a buy out clause. The clause basicly says the Cards can buy out the rest of the contract for X amount of dollars. This X amount could be the same Mac would get if he was fired after this season. Then, the Cards get a coach with a long term contract and the option to fire him without costing the club a fortune.

Note that most of the time, a team must pay the coaches contract even if they fire him. So, if Coach Mac gets fired after this year, the Cards will still have to pay him for the 2004 season.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
Understood but, coaches get fired all the time.Detroit fired their coach months after saying they wouldn't.

Extend Mac, sign some players so he has a fair chance, and then evaluate him. If he fails, bring in a new coach, at least you have the players signed.

May sound harsh but i don't see any other way out of this. I'm sure players see Boston and Jake gone and wonder why would I want to play there, but I really think Colvin's stand is pretty obvious, why would I sign with Mac's team, if Mac won't be there beyond this coming season?

Once he signs, even if Mac does get fired, you've got a signed contract.

Dbackjon's point about Marvin Lewis is exactly what I'm getting at, the players think Cincy is going to stick with him for a bit, so they're willing to take more money to sign there.

The only problem is, if Mac really isn't in Graves plan then it makes no sense to extend him...even to get FAs to come here. Logically, if he isn't in the plans then he should have been cut loose by now but it looks like they will go into the year with him as lame duck...with no meaningful FA signings. That will provide alot of ammo for the media and fans.

Russ, the only problem is, if you fire Mac, what, even decent, coach would come here? So now, this will be a team still poor on talent who cannot get a high powered coach to come here so the Cards will be a training ground for players and coaches.

 

[Dback Jon]

Originally posted by AZCB34


Russ, the only problem is, if you fire Mac, what, even decent, coach would come here? So now, this will be a team still poor on talent who cannot get a high powered coach to come here so the Cards will be a training ground for players and coaches.

I disagree - the Bungles got Marv Lewis.

In some ways, the Cardinals would be a no-lose situation for an up and coming coach like Ted Cottrell (just a name off the top of my head) - if he does well, then he is considered a miracle worker, and unless he is a total flop, he will not be held accountable for his performance, since it is "only the Cardinals"

I mean, look at Jake - it seems that every bad thing he did over the past 6 years is waved off because he "was with Arizona"

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Dback Jon
I disagree - the Bungles got Marv Lewis.

In some ways, the Cardinals would be a no-lose situation for an up and coming coach like Ted Cottrell (just a name off the top of my head) - if he does well, then he is considered a miracle worker, and unless he is a total flop, he will not be held accountable for his performance, since it is "only the Cardinals"

I mean, look at Jake - it seems that every bad thing he did over the past 6 years is waved off because he "was with Arizona"

True, but how good of a Head Coach is Marvin Lewis? Also, they have only signed defensive players in Cincy so those guys are signing on to play for Lewis the DC not Lewis the HC in my opinion.

You would be having a rookie HC here again instead of a name coach who could open the FA doors a bit and get guys in here to play for him (I am not suggesting Cotrell couldn't). When you add a rookie HC with the Bidwills spending ways, it is destiny to fail.

 

[DevonCardsFan]

I think the only way the Cards land a big name in Free Agency is if they go after guys teams don't want like Emmitt Smith and Hugh Douglas because of there age, or in the draft, I think the Cards should really focus on landing Leftwich. Having Leftwich at QB and Emmitt Smith at RB could build a little excitement for the Cards, around the league.

 

[john h]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
I know it's popular to bash Graves right now over Boston and I can see why but he really is in a bad situation here.

He's got the most money of any team to spend in FA but consider the "terms".

1) Signing bonus is always an issue with us, FA's want bonuses, often 2 tiers(like Jake's deal) we don't like to do that.

2) We have no starting QB and no starting WR's, how do you sell a QB a team with no WR's, how do you sell a WR a team with no QB's? Something has to break the logjam but what?

3) The best way to get in bigname players is to overpay, but that ultimately winds up with a team with little depth, when you play half your games in extreme heat, that makes for a bad recipe for injury.

4) His head coach has a short term contract working for an owner notorious for firing coaches. How do you sell FA's on a team with a coach in that position?

I'm honestly beginning to wonder how the Cards are going to sign anybody, I think we're going to end up getting mainly guys nobody else wants.

So Graves may well be a puppet, but his job is MUCH tougher to do here than it would be elsewhere.

Last week I wasn't so bad I figured we lost one guy I really wanted. But today I'm beginning to think we're going to be the first NFL team in history to be fined for not spending enough of our cap money and we'll be countersuing saying "hey we want to spend it nobody will sign with us!"

Another problem Graves has is he is a new guy in his current position and responsibilities and like any new guy does not want to appear to overspend on a new player and try explaining to Mr. Bidwill that I have to overpay because we are
the Cardinals.

 

[Wildfire]

Would some of you PLEASE throw yourselves on a sword or something.

The "poor me pity party" that some of you are attending, along with beating yourselves with a wet, leather, spike embeded whip, is about to drive me into the nut house.

Colvin is playing "Trick or Treat" with every team that he's visited and we're blaming Graves and Mac. PLEZZZZZZZZZE, it isn't their fault, we reportedluy gave him one hell of a contract offer.

Stewart, on the other hand, wants a 5 year 25 million contract. Hell, most of us would have had a cow if we had offered that to Jake. Neither one of them is worth it. I can wait for Griese.

I'll give Graves the time that he asked for beofre I start questioning what the Cards are doing. I would suggest that some others here do the same.

In other words, have a cold beer and chill.