What’s Wrong with Murray?

LA Redbird

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All I care about this year is MHJ. Let's see what Murray can do next year and we can get someone like Sanders. Although, we may not be high enough in the draft. Just remember - damn near EVERY year there's "generational talent" at QB who will "revolutionize" the game.Murray was that. Then Lawrence. Now Williams? Maybe. Maybe not. But someone will be there next year. No one was taking about Maye or Penix last year and look now. Bottom line, relax on QB. There's no pressure. The Murray contract will get more palatable with time and there will be a talent there for us to get. Just build the team in the meantime.
 

slanidrac16

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Murray will be here next year. We will use this use this draft to surround Murray with everything he needs to succeed.
We can get a #1 wr, offensive line help, a rb with speed and add a true blue guard in free agency. Maybe even a #2 receiver.
That sets up a potentially awesome offense…. If Kyler is the man.
If Kyler is not the man then come the 2025 draft we will have enough draft capital to move up and get a QB.
 

Chopper0080

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Murray will be here next year. We will use this use this draft to surround Murray with everything he needs to succeed.
We can get a #1 wr, offensive line help, a rb with speed and add a true blue guard in free agency. Maybe even a #2 receiver.
That sets up a potentially awesome offense…. If Kyler is the man.
If Kyler is not the man then come the 2025 draft we will have enough draft capital to move up and get a QB.
Yeah...I don't know how you go into 2024 still evaluating Kyler.
 

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Yes… except one’s unorthodox mechanics are successful in a way we’ve never really seen/exceptional leading to results already making him one of the greatest QBs of all time. He regularly can make the unbelievable play routine, AND can make the routine routine, even with a bad offensive line and fewer and fewer weapons, while winning multiple MVPs and and multiple Super Bowl winner.

The other has shown… none of that and his unorthodox mechanics continue to be why he’s not reaching his potential as a passer is likely holding him back. And even if you argue otherwise, it sure as hell hasn’t pushed him forward at anywhere NEAR the level of his counterpart.

Maybe.
 

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Red means "weak link", presumably with a year to date grade below a certain level

IMO - the tackles as weak links for the season dont pass the eye test.
1) I don't put a lot of stock in PFF's grades, so there's that.

2) It's possible they don't look weak to us, but from a broader NFL perspective they're still below-average. I can understand this with The Captain, in particular.

3) I think Will Hernandez gets unfairly criticized on this board. He's been fine, maybe even good.

4) I still think we have four-fifths of a playoff-caliber line and three-fifths of a very good offensive line. We can achieve the former by upgrading from Carter O'Donnell. The latter is much more difficult to do in the short term, because you probably have to pull out another piece.
 

football karma

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I still think we have four-fifths of a playoff-caliber line and three-fifths of a very good offensive line.
i think im closer to 3/5 for the playoffs -- especially if Kyler is the guy

I think he is especially sensitive to pressure up the middle. i think teams have their edge guys contain / force Murray to go backwards and count on the interior to get in his face.

as a result, i think the Cards can live with average tackles in pass pro, but need better than average G-C-G
 
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Harry

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I must have expressed myself poorly in this post. Several people responded that Murray had a good QB rating and success throwing deep. My point was that type of success combined with his all-in motion required a specific type of receiver. He needs receivers who dominate 50/50 balls, not speed demons. From 2019-2021 he first had Fitzgerald, Kirk and then Hopkins. They were exactly what he needed. Kirk was surprisingly good in this area. In 2020, for example, he ranked third in contested catches among slot receivers.

Marquise Brown is more a speed type. He is handy at stretching the field, but is not good at contested catches. Dortch, of course, has height issues. Wilson has too small a sample size to make an accurate judgment. My point was Murray has the wrong receiving unit to be consistently successful throwing deep. I don’t believe I ever said he couldn’t be successful with the right weapons; he has a strong arm. However, he has a weird motion. He’s not Dan Marino tossing a ball 40 yards into a small basket. Murray depends on his receivers to make a play.

Once they get the right receivers, his ultimate success, once he gets back in form, will depend on having good mechanics on shorter throws. He also needs to be on the move more. He wasn’t Sunday. He needs to use progressions. He must recognize blitzes. Finally he should not throw deep into double coverage.

I’ve written before he is the best running QB in the league. On the move he can demoralize a defense. The new under center offense enhances the running game. With a decent pocket he can throw the tree. He just needs the right guys on the other end of the passes. He can be a winning QB, IMO, but his margin fir error is smaller than some of his competitors.
 

slanidrac16

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Yeah...I don't know how you go into 2024 still evaluating Kyler.
My thoughts on this is drafting a qb with our first back would put a ***** into a rebuild unless we could get something for Murray.
Does Monti think like what appears most of this board that Murray just doesn’t have the supporting cast? Therefore can we really assess Murray this year. IDK
 

oaken1

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My thoughts on this is drafting a qb with our first back would put a ***** into a rebuild unless we could get something for Murray.
Does Monti think like what appears most of this board that Murray just doesn’t have the supporting cast? Therefore can we really assess Murray this year. IDK
IMO at the moment Murray has a superior support cast to what Mahomes is working with.
 

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Seems like he has never been one of those qbs who can make a defense suffer for bringing the blitz. Sure he can break off for a big run sometimes- but definitely not consistently. A strong D line always seems to really throw his mental game off and make him more erratic.

Tbd what we are going to get out of him. I'm slightly more inclined to roll with him in 2024, spend this draft building the supporting talent of this team. Then if Murray is not the answer- we aren't throwing a new QB to the wolves with no back up
 
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Harry

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This article published after my post indicates the Cards are working on exactly the footwork issue I took up in this post. I guess they reached the same conclusion about precise throws that I raised. That material is about halfway through the article.

 

football karma

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This article published after my post indicates the Cards are working on exactly the footwork issue I took up in this post. I guess they reached the same conclusion about precise throws that I raised. That material is about halfway through the article.

if they are working on his footwork, this may take some time and the results could be uneven

and i would love to know the thinking behind "left foot forward" vs right and what it gets you
 
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Harry

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if they are working on his footwork, this may take some time and the results could be uneven

and i would love to know the thinking behind "left foot forward" vs right and what it gets you
Less body movement typically means more accuracy. Watch Murray throw deep. YouTube has 2021 highlights. His body movement is even more exaggerated now. Then pull up some of Stroud’s throws. That’s what they’d like to see. If you dig you can find examples of Murray throwing with his right foot grounded. He has plenty of arm strength. Sadly he rarely steps forward with his left foot when throwing. Ironically that’s how you throw in baseball.
 

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This article published after my post indicates the Cards are working on exactly the footwork issue I took up in this post. I guess they reached the same conclusion about precise throws that I raised. That material is about halfway through the article.

They discussed this very same thing with Colt McCoy. Its more of a preference for their QBs than a Kyler specific thing. For their scheme more QBs seem to have their left foot up. In other schemes it might benefit more to have your right foot up.

FWIW @football karma
Patrick Mahomes plays with his right foot up, Aaron Rodgers plays with his left foot up and Tom Brady has done both, so which stance is the most conducive to success?


Conclusion​

As often is the case in sports, there isn’t a one size fits all prescription. My arms will never be as long as Patrick Mahomes, so my arm path and sequencing will never look like his does. As much as I want to have longer arms, that is a functional limit that I can’t change. What I can do though, is strive to maximize my potential within the limits (height, arm length, hand size, etc.) that I was given. On that note, footwork is simply a tool that you can tinker with to maximize your production on the field. Personally, having done both, the benefits of playing with my left foot up made it worth the switch. For others it will be different. I’d encourage athletes to explore what works best for you and find the stance that maximizes your output on the field.

I like it as reasoning for Kyler also being shorter and having very short arms though.
 

football karma

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They discussed this very same thing with Colt McCoy. Its more of a preference for their QBs than a Kyler specific thing. For their scheme more QBs seem to have their left foot up. In other schemes it might benefit more to have your right foot up.

FWIW @football karma





I like it as reasoning for Kyler also being shorter and having very short arms though.
thanks for this -- so much more to football than most of us imagine
 

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I think we’re better off moving on, I think the front office will move on unless Kyler really wows them… however, the wild swing of opinions between 2 games cracks me up.

A lot of people were very impressed by our last second victory over a bad ATL team, but are now out on him after we narrowly lost to a, surprisingly, good Houston team.

I didn’t think his play in the 2 games was that far apart. He struggled with getting the offense set in both games, he had some good and some bad downfield throws. At least he is trying them, last season it seemed like we never aired it out.
the problem with moving on is the contract. NFL executives claim it’s untradeable. I will say this I have no idea what Monti is gonna do
 

Stout

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the problem with moving on is the contract. NFL executives claim it’s untradeable. I will say this I have no idea what Monti is gonna do
They said it was untradeable last offseason. It would be a big cap hit in the upcoming offseason, but it is tradeable. Also, Monti saved a ton of cap space for no conceivable reason, which hints he's keeping the trade option open.
 

SoonerLou

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I must have expressed myself poorly in this post. Several people responded that Murray had a good QB rating and success throwing deep. My point was that type of success combined with his all-in motion required a specific type of receiver. He needs receivers who dominate 50/50 balls, not speed demons. From 2019-2021 he first had Fitzgerald, Kirk and then Hopkins. They were exactly what he needed. Kirk was surprisingly good in this area. In 2020, for example, he ranked third in contested catches among slot receivers.

Marquise Brown is more a speed type. He is handy at stretching the field, but is not good at contested catches. Dortch, of course, has height issues. Wilson has too small a sample size to make an accurate judgment. My point was Murray has the wrong receiving unit to be consistently successful throwing deep. I don’t believe I ever said he couldn’t be successful with the right weapons; he has a strong arm. However, he has a weird motion. He’s not Dan Marino tossing a ball 40 yards into a small basket. Murray depends on his receivers to make a play.

Once they get the right receivers, his ultimate success, once he gets back in form, will depend on having good mechanics on shorter throws. He also needs to be on the move more. He wasn’t Sunday. He needs to use progressions. He must recognize blitzes. Finally he should not throw deep into double coverage.

I’ve written before he is the best running QB in the league. On the move he can demoralize a defense. The new under center offense enhances the running game. With a decent pocket he can throw the tree. He just needs the right guys on the other end of the passes. He can be a winning QB, IMO, but his margin fir error is smaller than some of his competitors.
Again you keep mentioning 50/50 balls but it was not what he was relying on. He actually was hitting guys in stride in 2021.
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I know posting more stats but it appears you missed the vids where the BALL PLACEMENT was happening.

Dont me wrong I agree with your point about surrounding him with more physical wrs. However, he was deadly accurate in placement of the football regardless of their size. He probably needs that now, but his placement was not "50/50" balls.

In fact I think you're actually missing the point of the "right wrs for Kyler". Its not necessarily the deep ball. It helps him more in terms of intermediate throws. There are throws he doesnt attempt because of the lack of size of the wrs.
 
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SoonerLou

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This is an assertion that could use some evidence I think.


I think its been clear since 2022 because of just how small Rondale Moore is he doesnt attempt the same throws he did when Larry was the slot or when Kirk was the slot. He's not throwing back shoulder fades to Hollywood Brown (at least from memory)

Its the intermediate game where we're asking our 5'10" to throw to guys shorter than him thats been an issue. It wasnt like Kyler suddenly got better on the deep ball when Hopkins returned. He didnt. He just got better on the intermediate throws.
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Stout

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I think its been clear since 2022 because of just how small Rondale Moore is he doesnt attempt the same throws he did when Larry was the slot or when Kirk was the slot. He's not throwing back shoulder fades to Hollywood Brown (at least from memory)

Its the intermediate game where we're asking our 5'10" to throw to guys shorter than him thats been an issue. It wasnt like Kyler suddenly got better on the deep ball when Hopkins returned. He didnt. He just got better on the intermediate throws.
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On the one hand, I agree that we have gone too small at the WR position. On the other hand, I hear another excuse for Kyler. Granted, it's a size thing on his part, but that is a mark against him as a QB. If he lets his height, or lack thereof, affect his game--irrespective of his WRs--then it's a problem.
 

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On the one hand, I agree that we have gone too small at the WR position. On the other hand, I hear another excuse for Kyler. Granted, it's a size thing on his part, but that is a mark against him as a QB. If he lets his height, or lack thereof, affect his game--irrespective of his WRs--then it's a problem.
This is a tough one for me. Kyler cant help his height. For the the team, knowing his height, it should be paramount to surround their less-than-ideal-height QB with talent that doesnt exacerbate the issue. Putting 5'8" receivers in the slot when you have a 5'10" QB just sounds foolish. Yet thats what we did. So I dont view it as an excuse. While I agree its a problem, its an FO problem, not a Murray one, in this instance...
 
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