Welcome Cam Johnson

[SirStefan32]

The point is that we can't look at any moves in a vacuum. Things are more complicated than that. If they can't get a point guard or another really good player, then these moves will not look great. If they do, they will look amazing. We just don't have all of the information we need to make that determination. Every one of these moves is connected. Let's wait until we see the second half of the picture before we declare it as great or terrible.

 

[Sunburn]

That is short-sighted and oversimplified.

Here is what they did:

• They used $8.9M on those two players, still adding almost $2M to the available cap space, as Warren made $10.8M.
  
• Then they saved additional money by being able to remove the cap hold on Holmes (Baynes is the new Holmes for next year.) That's another $1.6M.
  
• Draft pick salaries averaged out.
  
• Suns were able to add four player while losing one to remove some additional holds since every empty roster spot has a certain hold on it (These are called "roster charges").
  
• They also managed to get an average starting power forward for next season for less than $4M.

They added some $4M to available cap space while securing a starting power forward and a backup center in the process and adding two rookies instead of one.

I don't understand what you wanted them to do with Warren and the 32nd pick. There is no place to Warren to get his minutes since he can't guard a chair while the other small forwards are defensive stoppers. They traded a second-round pick, and added a first round pick, replaced an average SF (no need for one) with an average PF (major need for the team next year), and they replaced one backup center with another one in order to be able to release the cap hold on Holmes. What else do you want? They are not getting Jrue Holiday or Kemba Walker for an average SF who is always hurt. They did an outstanding job yesterday, turning a useless pick and a redundant player into a starting PF for next year while adding an extra rookie and clearing over $4M to add to the free-agent (PG) fund.

I wanted them to get a better deal for Warren. At least not give up a pick to dump him, regardless of your perceived lack of value for said pick.

Do we want two rookies, rather than one? Particularly if those rookies are of lesser quality?

I think you're cherry picking a little bit here. We received a first round pick but you're not listing the first round pick we gave up. You're also not mentioning the value we gave up for that average PF in trading the 6th pick for the 11th pick.

I think an outstanding job is really reaching. It remains to be seen. I hope you're right.

 

[Yuma]

I think they are doing a good job of digging out. You can't hit all home runs. But you do have to hit singles. Pop ups and strike outs are what we have been doing. So until this season plays out, we won't know if it is singles or pop outs.

 

[SunsTzu]

I'm not sure where the idea that the Suns freed up 3+ mil is coming from. Napkin mathing it last night I only saw a net of about half that and I just double checked and it looks like I was pretty close, am I missing something? Pretty sure what I show as the net difference is close to the vet min. Hard to believe it would be the difference between being able to offer a max or not.

TJ Warren $10,810,000.00
#6 Pick $5,806,200.00
Total Out $16,616,200.00

Dario Saric $3,481,986.00
Aron Baynes $5,453,280.00
#11 Pick $4,028,280.00
#24 Pick $2,190,480.00
Total In $15,154,026.00

Net Difference $1,462,174.00

 

[Krangodnzr]

Right, exactly. They don't need another Bender, Chriss, or Jackson. They need actual players who can play basketball at an NBA-level. They were terrible last year because they had no NBA talent beyond Booker, the two rookies, and then Oubre and Johnson later on. Outside of those guys, they were a G-League team accompanied by one grandpa. There was a brief stretch when everyone was healthy and they played quite well. They played well because they had enough NBA players (barely) to compete.

I think Johnson is going to be a role player who can shoot the three. Too many of the players from pick 6 onward were projects. I'm comfortable with the concept that Johnson will be good at what the Suns needed on offense.

Now they can be dinged for not trading down again, but you get cute and you miss the player you want sometimes.

 

[Hoop Head]

I'm not sure where the idea that the Suns freed up 3+ mil is coming from. Napkin mathing it last night I only saw a net of about half that and I just double checked and it looks like I was pretty close, am I missing something? Pretty sure what I show as the net difference is close to the vet min. Hard to believe it would be the difference between being able to offer a max or not.

TJ Warren $10,810,000.00
#6 Pick $5,806,200.00
Total Out $16,616,200.00

Dario Saric $3,481,986.00
Aron Baynes $5,453,280.00
#11 Pick $4,028,280.00
#24 Pick $2,190,480.00
Total In $15,154,026.00

Net Difference $1,462,174.00

Where are you getting that number for the #11 pick? It looks like you're paying him almost a million more than needed. $3,326,000 is the first year salary I found. #24 is less also, $1,808,700

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-salaries/nba-rookie-salary-scale-by-draft-year/

 

[SunsTzu]

Where are you getting that number for the #11 pick? It looks like you're paying him almost a million more than needed. $3,326,000 is the first year salary I found. #24 is less also, $1,808,700

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-salaries/nba-rookie-salary-scale-by-draft-year/

Your link is 2 years old and doesn't account for increases in the cap.

http://www.shamsports.com/capulator

*Wait I'm only looking at the top one on the page.

 

[Sunburn]

I think Johnson is going to be a role player who can shoot the three. Too many of the players from pick 6 onward were projects. I'm comfortable with the concept that Johnson will be good at what the Suns needed on offense.

Now they can be dinged for not trading down again, but you get cute and you miss the player you want sometimes.

The problem I see in this is to be a truly valuable piece for a team, you need to do more than just shoot the 3, or else seth curry and troy daniels would be considered much more valuable. This is basically the calibre of player I see us as having picked at #11. I guess Kyle Korver is a somewhat more optimistic comp. Still pretty underwhelming.

 

[devilalum]

The problem I see in this is to be a truly valuable piece for a team, you need to do more than just shoot the 3, or else seth curry and troy daniels would be considered much more valuable. This is basically the calibre of player I see us as having picked at #11.

But he is tall, that is his other super power and he has a 36" vertical.
Those 3 skills together are intriguing. Not a slam dunk but...

 

[SunsTzu]

Where are you getting that number for the #11 pick? It looks like you're paying him almost a million more than needed. $3,326,000 is the first year salary I found. #24 is less also, $1,808,700

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-salaries/nba-rookie-salary-scale-by-draft-year/

Ok. Looks like your link is using the base scale. Rookie contracts can be anywhere between 80% and 120% of the base scale. It is almost unheard of for rookies to not get the full 120% of the scale which is what the capulator is using.

Memphis caught a lot of flack a few years ago with one of their picks for not offering the 120% scale.

 

[Hoop Head]

Ok. Looks like your link is using the base scale. Rookie contracts can be anywhere between 80% and 120% of the base scale. It is almost unheard of for rookies to not get the full 120% of the scale which is what the capulator is using.

Memphis caught a lot of flack a few years ago with one of their picks for not offering the 120% scale.

We'll see what happens. I wouldn't count on 120% until the deals are signed. If they wait to sign those players the cap hold is the rate shown, which is why some rookies do wait to sign their rookie deals. That allows their team a little extra wiggle room in free agency.

I wouldn't be shocked if Johnson signed a straight deal though. He was a reach, do you think he'll balk at the contract over 10-20%? His agent might but he's lucky to get lotto money and I'm sure his agent knows that too.

 

[SunsTzu]

We'll see what happens. I wouldn't count on 120% until the deals are signed. If they wait to sign those players the cap hold is the rate shown, which is why some rookies do wait to sign their rookie deals. That allows their team a little extra wiggle room in free agency.

I wouldn't be shocked if Johnson signed a straight deal though. He was a reach, do you think he'll balk at the contract over 10-20%? His agent might but he's lucky to get lotto money and I'm sure his agent knows that too.

You are correct that the base scale is what will be used prior to them signing but it only has a negligible impact on the net difference. And reach or not I will be shocked if Johnson doesn't get the full 120% that is standard practice. The last thing the Suns need is more ammunition to be called cheap after making a huge reach, if you didn't want to pay him that much should have traded down further.

TJ Warren $10,810,000.00
#6 Pick $4,794,100.00
Total Out $15,604,100.00

Dario Saric $3,481,986.00
Aron Baynes $5,453,280.00
#11 Pick $3,326,000.00
#24 Pick $1,808,700.00
Total In $14,069,966.00

Net Difference $1,534,134.00

 

[1Sun]

You are correct that the base scale is what will be used prior to them signing but it only has a negligible impact on the net difference. And reach or not I will be shocked if Johnson doesn't get the full 120% that is standard practice. The last thing the Suns need is more ammunition to be called cheap after making a huge reach, if you didn't want to pay him that much should have traded down further.

TJ Warren $10,810,000.00
#6 Pick $4,794,100.00
Total Out $15,604,100.00

Dario Saric $3,481,986.00
Aron Baynes $5,453,280.00
#11 Pick $3,326,000.00
#24 Pick $1,808,700.00
Total In $14,069,966.00

Net Difference $1,534,134.00

So...Warren, White and #32 for Saric, Baynes, Cam Johnson, Jerome and $1.5 million in cap space. That is enough to get any GM fired. Awful. Just awful.

 

[Carolinacacti]

So...Warren, White and #32 for

I liked Warren and was one of the few on this board. But I could not defend him when he never played. I was so excited when the Suns traded the 6th pick because I new White was a Bull. And the Bulls think Dunn can't guard, White will have a turnover for every assist.

 

[SirStefan32]

I'm not sure where the idea that the Suns freed up 3+ mil is coming from. Napkin mathing it last night I only saw a net of about half that and I just double checked and it looks like I was pretty close, am I missing something? Pretty sure what I show as the net difference is close to the vet min. Hard to believe it would be the difference between being able to offer a max or not.

TJ Warren $10,810,000.00
#6 Pick $5,806,200.00
Total Out $16,616,200.00

Dario Saric $3,481,986.00
Aron Baynes $5,453,280.00
#11 Pick $4,028,280.00
#24 Pick $2,190,480.00
Total In $15,154,026.00

Net Difference $1,462,174.00

Holmes can be renounced since they have Baynes. Without opening my spreadsheet yet again, I think his hold is $1.6M.

 

[SirStefan32]

I wanted them to get a better deal for Warren.

Sure, so did I. I was hoping they would trade him for Kevin Durant. It's not gonna happen. I also happen to want to bang Jennifer Lawrence, but it's not gonna happen.

At least not give up a pick to dump him, regardless of your perceived lack of value for said pick

Again, it would have been nice, but it takes two teams to trade. When you are getting rid of something of negative value, or even neautral value, you have to give up something.

Do we want two rookies, rather than one? Particularly if those rookies are of lesser quality?

You were just throwing a fit about them trading a second round pick, and now you are complaining that they got two rookies in the first round. What is it that you want?

I think you're cherry picking a little bit here. We received a first round pick but you're not listing the first round pick we gave up. You're also not mentioning the value we gave up for that average PF in trading the 6th pick for the 11th pick.

I am not cherry picking anything. I did list the picks, saying they averaged out. Salary ends up being the same. They traded down 6 sports, and traded up eight spots, essentially. There is no value we gave up for the starting PF. Nobody they drafted at #6 would have been better than Saric next year.

I think an outstanding job is really reaching. It remains to be seen. I hope you're right.

It depends on what the goal is. If the goal is to be strategic, fill out the roster with actual NBA players, and put yourself in a position to sign free agent, then they did an outstanding job. If your goal is to have Warren sit on the bench while making $11M per year, and to have a roster full of Benders, Chrises, and Jacksons, then they did not do well. It's a matter of perspective.

 

[Sunburn]

Sure, so did I. I was hoping they would trade him for Kevin Durant. It's not gonna happen. I also happen to want to bang Jennifer Lawrence, but it's not gonna happen.



Again, it would have been nice, but it takes two teams to trade. When you are getting rid of something of negative value, or even neautral value, you have to give up something.



You were just throwing a fit about them trading a second round pick, and now you are complaining that they got two rookies in the first round. What is it that you want?



I am not cherry picking anything. I did list the picks, saying they averaged out. Salary ends up being the same. They traded down 6 sports, and traded up eight spots, essentially. There is no value we gave up for the starting PF. Nobody they drafted at #6 would have been better than Saric next year.



It depends on what the goal is. If the goal is to be strategic, fill out the roster with actual NBA players, and put yourself in a position to sign free agent, then they did an outstanding job. If your goal is to have Warren sit on the bench while making $11M per year, and to have a roster full of Benders, Chrises, and Jacksons, then they did not do well. It's a matter of perspective.

Lol you're being pretty hyperbolic, although JLaw isnt quite the star she once was, you might have a chance. In any case, as a Suns fan, I hope you're right.

 

[SirStefan32]

Lol you're being pretty hyperbolic, although JLaw isnt quite the star she once was, you might have a chance. In any case, as a Suns fan, I hope you're right.

And I hope you are right on that, haha.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Sure, so did I. I was hoping they would trade him for Kevin Durant. It's not gonna happen. I also happen to want to bang Jennifer Lawrence, but it's not gonna happen.



Again, it would have been nice, but it takes two teams to trade. When you are getting rid of something of negative value, or even neautral value, you have to give up something.



You were just throwing a fit about them trading a second round pick, and now you are complaining that they got two rookies in the first round. What is it that you want?



I am not cherry picking anything. I did list the picks, saying they averaged out. Salary ends up being the same. They traded down 6 sports, and traded up eight spots, essentially. There is no value we gave up for the starting PF. Nobody they drafted at #6 would have been better than Saric next year.



It depends on what the goal is. If the goal is to be strategic, fill out the roster with actual NBA players, and put yourself in a position to sign free agent, then they did an outstanding job. If your goal is to have Warren sit on the bench while making $11M per year, and to have a roster full of Benders, Chrises, and Jacksons, then they did not do well. It's a matter of perspective.

Warren pretty much destroyed his own trade value.

Enjoy Indiana.

 

[GatorAZ]

Supposedly, the word is that Jeff Bower is the one who was infatuated with Johnson, going way back. And going on Bower's history of personnel decisions, it's even more difficult not to have a critical opinion of the choice.

Bower’s history in regards to the draft is horrendous. He makes Ryan McDonough look like a draft wizard.

 

[sdscard4]

White isn't that good. Would everyone be happy if he were selected at 6? I just don't get it damn if you don't damn if you do

 

[Hoop Head]

Bower’s history in regards to the draft is horrendous. He makes Ryan McDonough look like a draft wizard.

Not trying to single you out but I've seen this mentioned a few times now by a few different people and I'm curious why nothing was said about his draft history when he was hired? I remember everyone, for the most part, being on board with hiring him. I don't recall anyone bashing the signing or mentioning he was terrible at drafting players. What changed over the last month?

 

[Hoop Head]

White isn't that good. Would everyone be happy if he were selected at 6? I just don't get it damn if you don't damn if you do

I think I was one of the few people really high on White here and I'm disappointed we didn't get him but it has less to do with what I believe he'll do on the court next year and more to do with how I became a big fans of his after reading his article on the Players Tribune. I'll be rooting for him in Chicago but that doesn't change the fact that I think he'll average around 12 points with 5 assists on 44 shooting or so, at best, next season. His ceiling isn't all that higher. There were a lot of questions about whether he'd be a longterm PG solution for anyone or if he'd be combo guard 6th man. Is that who people wanted at #6? I don't think so.

Everyone's mind changed once the pick was dealt and while I didn't and don't like what they did with the #11 pick, I can live with it. If we drafted White though there would be a lot of people angry that we seemingly threw in the towel on chasing after Brodgon or Russell in free agency. I'm confident in that. After the lottery played out how it did, there was very little the Suns could have done with the pick that would have pleased the majority of fans short of trading up.

 

[taz02]

The point is that we can't look at any moves in a vacuum. Things are more complicated than that. If they can't get a point guard or another really good player, then these moves will not look great. If they do, they will look amazing. We just don't have all of the information we need to make that determination. Every one of these moves is connected. Let's wait until we see the second half of the picture before we declare it as great or terrible.

Exactly, what the do with the cap space will be the key. If they bring back Oubre and sign PG worth 20m this will all look alot better.

 

[GatorAZ]

Not trying to single you out but I've seen this mentioned a few times now by a few different people and I'm curious why nothing was said about his draft history when he was hired? I remember everyone, for the most part, being on board with hiring him. I don't recall anyone bashing the signing or mentioning he was terrible at drafting players. What changed over the last month?

We talked about the bad picks in Detroit and writing them to SVG having the power. Bright side had an rundown of his moves in New Orleans.

https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/...hoenix-suns-jeff-bower-eyes-fans-former-teams