Welcome Cam Johnson

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Apologies for attacking you.

Accepted.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Actually I don’t think many of us think this draft was better. What I think a lot of us think is that jones laid up instead of going for the green. Essentially he bought into it being a poor draft and wasn’t convinced in his talent identification skills and went safe. That’s my perspective. The bucks gm who took Giannis had conviction in his talent identification and went for it in spite of ridicule. Here jones essentially seemed to get daily double of going safe and getting ridiculed.

As for those posters who seemingly have kinda just written this draft off as crap - as someone (can’t remember who, sorry) has stated repeatedly, even in bad drafts there are gems. Great talent evaluators identify them and make out like bandits. Sorry if I want our gm to be a great talent evaluator instead of letting him off the hook by merely repeating “it’s a bad draft.” He’s paid to identify the gems, damnit. If he can’t he should lose his job. JMHO

From what I've seen, the gems are often overlooked because of the things they cant do, not the things they do well.

It's not likely that Cam Johnson becomes a gem, but he does have one elite trait that could lead to success in the NBA. Most of the guys drafted ahead of him dont have a single elite trait.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Hmm, I’d challenge. I’d bet that on average the top 10 players in every draft likely are better than the players drafted 10-20, than are drafted 20-30, etc. Now I’m not saying top 10 against the rest of the draft because the opportunity set is just so much greater. But I’d bet that top 10 players are typically better on average.

Maybe you are missing what I am saying. Where they are picked does not intrinsically give them value. I would absolutely grant your assertion that they are likely to end up better players.

 

[JCSunsfan]

What are you talking about? They wouldn’t have lost saric if they drafted someone other than cam. Saric wasn’t part of the deal in drafting cam. They already had saric as part of the deal before they selected cam. Cams selection is completely independent of saric acquisition. Now if people are complaining about trading down from 6 to just get cam you’re right. But that’s not what’s being discussed.

OK. Let me try again. Let's just assume they wanted Cam. They are being criticized for not trading back FARTHER because they could have gotten Cam with a pick in the 20 range. The problem with that is that they could not then have gotten Saric because Minny did not have a pick in that range.

If the criticism is that the should have taken someone else with the #11 pick, then that is a different discussion.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Lol. I was an idiot.

In your defense (and mine too) we all were expecting them to add a pg as a follow-up, which they never did. None of us knew for sure how Bridges would turn out and TJ had not yet revealed his improved three-point shot. JJ was at best doubtful. They thought Ariza's work ethic would rub off on the young guys. How wrong I was. Ariza totally tanked it.

In the end, Ariza did get us Oubre, so there is that.

I believe I remember seeing some people on this board claiming that McD signed Ariza just to add an asset he could move at the trade deadline. I don’t know if it was on purpose, but that is the way it worked out. Ariza netted us a young player we could control in Oubre.

I still don’t get why we never got a pg last year. Tyler Johnson was the best option we had.

 

[Hoop Head]

BTW. I just did a search of every post in which I used the word "prime". I said this ONCE here.
https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/f...nd-the-nba-thread.274406/page-34#post-3788859

And all I said was that I was excited that we had signed a FA who actually might be able to play minutes and was still in what should have been his productive years. I was much more excited about Ayton and Bridges, and I still am pretty encouraged by those two picks.

Even then, I was just agreeing with Ouchie's expectations for last season.

Just FYI, I ran into this the other day, if you're trying to link to a previous post you made, or someone else did, then you need to click the number of that post that is in the top right corner. If you pull a link from anywhere else then there's a good chance it will link to a different page for others, it depends on how people set how they view forum as far as how many posts are on a page. It's not hard to find the post you're referencing since you mentioned how you searched for it but it's best to pull from the exact post you're trying to quote so it links to the same thing for everyone.

You can tell by looking at the URL's where it trips things up. Here's the URL you posted,

https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/f...nd-the-nba-thread.274406/page-34#post-3788859

And here is the one from your post directly...
https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/posts/3788859/

Both have the same post number but your link has a page number also, which supersedes the post number and will send people to that page if their defaults aren't the same as yours. Linking to the post will always get them to the post, regardless of what page it may show up on for them.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Maybe you are missing what I am saying. Where they are picked does not intrinsically give them value. I would absolutely grant your assertion that they are likely to end up better players.

Got it

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

OK. Let me try again. Let's just assume they wanted Cam. They are being criticized for not trading back FARTHER because they could have gotten Cam with a pick in the 20 range. The problem with that is that they could not then have gotten Saric because Minny did not have a pick in that range.

If the criticism is that the should have taken someone else with the #11 pick, then that is a different discussion.

For me it’s more, if you wanted a guy that’s likely to last 6-10 more picks (or maybe more), trade down the 5-6 to be at the front end of the range and gain an asset. If jones heard that cam would be taken before then okay, I get it. If he didn’t and he was scared it could happen, then that’s gm-ing scared and worries me about his abilities.

 

[Dr. Jones]

My fearless prediction is that Coby White won't ever be as good as Ricky Rubio.

What's funny is that them's fightin' words, even with people that don't like Coby White!

Ricky Rubio is a legitimate starting PG in the NBA. I don't get why people dislike him so much.

For Coby White to even be a starting NBA PG, he's going to have to grow substantially.

I'm not sold on White either. But when you are faced with a mid-tier PG at an OUTRAGEOUS price, or a High Ceiling, light speed, young PG prospect at a cheap price...... the choice should be easy.

Lowe or somewone had a graphic on ESPN where they polled a ton of front office folks from around the league and asked them to name the craziest thing that happened this summer.

Tied for #1: The Knicks off season and the Rubio contract.

 

[JCSunsfan]

For me it’s more, if you wanted a guy that’s likely to last 6-10 more picks (or maybe more), trade down the 5-6 to be at the front end of the range and gain an asset. If jones heard that cam would be taken before then okay, I get it. If he didn’t and he was scared it could happen, then that’s gm-ing scared and worries me about his abilities.

That assumes there is another team in that range that wants to trade and that they have an asset or assets the Suns value more than Saric—unless you are advocating a SECOND trade from 10 down into the 16 to 20 range. I suppose they could try to do that. But draft day is pretty fluid. Trading their pick twice is a lot of wheeling and dealing.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I'm not sold on White either. But when you are faced with a mid-tier PG at an OUTRAGEOUS price, or a High Ceiling, light speed, young PG prospect at a cheap price...... the choice should be easy.

Lowe or somewone had a graphic on ESPN where they polled a ton of front office folks from around the league and asked them to name the craziest thing that happened this summer.

Tied for #1: The Knicks off season and the Rubio contract.

I don’t think most pundits pan the Rubio signing because of his abilities or even the contract as much as they see him as a mismatch with Booker. They see Booker as a player that needs the ball in his hands a lot to be effective because that is the way he played last year. So they see Rubio in no better a situation than he was with Donovan.

 

[Mainstreet]

Excited? No. But was it a reasonable signing?

Consider:

Every off season players sign record breaking contracts. This one was no exception. Even after all the money was thrown around Rubio signed for the 21st highest average salary amongst PGs (*over the life of each contract. #17 if you just look at just this year. And 12 of those 21 are over $29M/yr.) That means he's paid like a bottom third starting PG. It isn't a stretch at all to say that Rubio is a bottom third starter. I mean he's an actual starting caliber PG and not a back up. So I don't see it as an over pay.

Also, only 5 of those 21 PGs' contracts will expire before his. So the length of his contract is pretty decent when compared to his peers.

I don't think there was a better option on the market per price tag. Russell and Rozier were massive overpays. Beverly would have been nice at the price, but he wasn't leaving LA. Joseph... ugh.

Bottom line is that I believe we got fair market value for Rubio and that we aren't hitched to a grotesque contract.

(I also believe Utah will have a bit of buyers remorse with Conley and his $32M contract. He's an upgrade over Rubio, but $15M/2yrs worth? I don't believe so.)

And the Jazz had to give up two first round picks and Jae Crowder among other things to trade for Conley who will tun 32 in October.

 

[Chaplin]

I don’t think most pundits pan the Rubio signing because of his abilities or even the contract as much as they see him as a mismatch with Booker. They see Booker as a player that needs the ball in his hands a lot to be effective because that is the way he played last year. So they see Rubio in no better a situation than he was with Donovan.

Problem is, you can’t say that and then say we need a point guard in the same breath. Do we need a point guard or does Booker need the ball in his hands most of the time? These “experts” don’t seem to know anything about the Suns.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Problem is, you can’t say that and then say we need a point guard in the same breath. Do we need a point guard or does Booker need the ball in his hands most of the time? These “experts” don’t seem to know anything about the Suns.

I agree. I think they thought we needed a different kind of pg. More of a combo guard.

 

[Mainstreet]

I agree. I think they thought we needed a different kind of pg. More of a combo guard.

I think if the Suns had acquired Rubio for 3 years, $41 million the pundits wouldn't have said a word.

The same with Cam Johnson if he was drafted later than #11. A lot of these media pundits are working off how they perceive the value... rather than real life value.

 

[Hoop Head]

I'm not sold on White either. But when you are faced with a mid-tier PG at an OUTRAGEOUS price, or a High Ceiling, light speed, young PG prospect at a cheap price...... the choice should be easy.

Lowe or somewone had a graphic on ESPN where they polled a ton of front office folks from around the league and asked them to name the craziest thing that happened this summer.

Tied for #1: The Knicks off season and the Rubio contract.

He's not being paid an outrageous amount compared to other NBA players. Raze already pulled the info, Rubio has the 21st highest yearly salary when compared to other PG's. Are there 20 PG's who are better than Rubio right now? I don't think so but I think he does fall in the 12-15 range when it comes to current PG's, so he's paid accordingly.

I find it odd that you quoted 3 posts but not that one, that directly references his salary. Did you miss it?

Excited? No. But was it a reasonable signing?

Consider:

Every off season players sign record breaking contracts. This one was no exception. Even after all the money was thrown around Rubio signed for the 21st highest average salary amongst PGs (*over the life of each contract. #17 if you just look at just this year. And 12 of those 21 are over $29M/yr.) That means he's paid like a bottom third starting PG. It isn't a stretch at all to say that Rubio is a bottom third starter. I mean he's an actual starting caliber PG and not a back up. So I don't see it as an over pay.

Also, only 5 of those 21 PGs' contracts will expire before his. So the length of his contract is pretty decent when compared to his peers.

I don't think there was a better option on the market per price tag. Russell and Rozier were massive overpays. Beverly would have been nice at the price, but he wasn't leaving LA. Joseph... ugh.

Bottom line is that I believe we got fair market value for Rubio and that we aren't hitched to a grotesque contract.

(I also believe Utah will have a bit of buyers remorse with Conley and his $32M contract. He's an upgrade over Rubio, but $15M/2yrs worth? I don't believe so.)

If you heard someone like Lowe bash that contract, I'd like to see it. I find it hard to believe that any analyst would take the Suns to task over that signing given some of the other contracts thrown about, like Rozier at $19 million a year in Charlotte. It's even worse for one of them to bash the Suns for it since Rubio clearly fills the PG hole that has been present since Bledsoe was traded. That hole seemed to be a favorite for many analysts to bash, so maybe they're just upset they no longer have that and have replaced it with how the Suns overpaid to fill that hole. That seems odd though, especially when anti-Suns analysts like Amin have given the Suns a solid grade for the offseason. It wasn't great overall but it was good, a C+ or B-. I'd grade it at a B after the Oubre resigning.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think if the Suns had acquired Rubio for 3 years, $41 million the pundits wouldn't have said a word.

The same with Cam Johnson if he was drafted later than #11. A lot of these media pundits are working off how they perceive the value... rather than real life value.

i think it's just the opposite... i think a lot of Suns fans are working how they perceive the value rather than real life value but the proof will ultimately be in the pudding.

 

[Sunburn]

I'm not sold on White either. But when you are faced with a mid-tier PG at an OUTRAGEOUS price, or a High Ceiling, light speed, young PG prospect at a cheap price...... the choice should be easy.

Lowe or somewone had a graphic on ESPN where they polled a ton of front office folks from around the league and asked them to name the craziest thing that happened this summer.

Tied for #1: The Knicks off season and the Rubio contract.

Link or it's not credible. The Rubio contract is quite reasonable.

 

[Chaplin]

Link or it's not credible. The Rubio contract is quite reasonable.

No, it's credible. I think the sample size was extremely small however.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I'm not sold on White either. But when you are faced with a mid-tier PG at an OUTRAGEOUS price, or a High Ceiling, light speed, young PG prospect at a cheap price...... the choice should be easy.

Lowe or somewone had a graphic on ESPN where they polled a ton of front office folks from around the league and asked them to name the craziest thing that happened this summer.

Tied for #1: The Knicks off season and the Rubio contract.

Rubio's contract is NOT outrageous.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Link or it's not credible. The Rubio contract is quite reasonable.

https://arizonasports.com/story/202...rubio-signing-as-one-of-nba-offseasons-worst/

link to the espn story is in there.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Problem is, you can’t say that and then say we need a point guard in the same breath. Do we need a point guard or does Booker need the ball in his hands most of the time? These “experts” don’t seem to know anything about the Suns.

Chris Paul was fine with Harden. Atleast for a little while. That is what it is supposed to look like.

I agree. I think they thought we needed a different kind of pg. More of a combo guard.

Not sure if I agree. We needed an awesome defender who can play off the ball on offense and shoot lights out when it's his turn.

Link or it's not credible. The Rubio contract is quite reasonable.

Rubio's contract is NOT outrageous.

https://arizonasports.com/story/202...rubio-signing-as-one-of-nba-offseasons-worst/

20 front office execs.

 

[Dr. Jones]

He's not being paid an outrageous amount compared to other NBA players. Raze already pulled the info, Rubio has the 21st highest yearly salary when compared to other PG's. Are there 20 PG's who are better than Rubio right now? I don't think so but I think he does fall in the 12-15 range when it comes to current PG's, so he's paid accordingly.

I find it odd that you quoted 3 posts but not that one, that directly references his salary. Did you miss it?





If you heard someone like Lowe bash that contract, I'd like to see it. I find it hard to believe that any analyst would take the Suns to task over that signing given some of the other contracts thrown about, like Rozier at $19 million a year in Charlotte. It's even worse for one of them to bash the Suns for it since Rubio clearly fills the PG hole that has been present since Bledsoe was traded. That hole seemed to be a favorite for many analysts to bash, so maybe they're just upset they no longer have that and have replaced it with how the Suns overpaid to fill that hole. That seems odd though, especially when anti-Suns analysts like Amin have given the Suns a solid grade for the offseason. It wasn't great overall but it was good, a C+ or B-. I'd grade it at a B after the Oubre resigning.

Didn't miss it. I just disagree vehemently with paying a journeyman PG who cant defend more than a building block Like Kelly Oubre. Especially since he may be a contributing reason we can't resign him in 2 years.

And finally, since we are going to suck with or without him.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Didn't miss it. I just disagree vehemently with paying a journeyman PG who cant defend more than a building block Like Kelly Oubre. Especially since he may be a contributing reason we can't resign him in 2 years.

And finally, since we are going to suck with or without him.

Who is this journeyman PG that can't defend?

 

[JCSunsfan]

Didn't miss it. I just disagree vehemently with paying a journeyman PG who cant defend more than a building block Like Kelly Oubre. Especially since he may be a contributing reason we can't resign him in 2 years.

And finally, since we are going to suck with or without him.

Can’t defend? Are you talking about Rubio? And we signed Oubre or didn’t you hear?