Week 12 2022: Heroes and Goats

DVontel

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Cant believe how easy that 2pt conversion was on him.

Devin White hasnt been great outside of his super bowl run either.

Probably be a long time before a team drafts an ILB in the top 10.
He might not have had the same amount of splash plays, but Zaven seems to be much more consistent to me. I said this for a minute, but I have much more faith in Zaven than Isaiah going forward.

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Timm Rosenbach

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He might not have had the same amount of splash plays, but Zaven seems to be much more consistent to me. I said this for a minute, but I have much more faith in Zaven than Isaiah going forward.

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Simmons has one foot out the door with the Cardinals. He will end up having a good career with another team just like Reddick.
 

Crimson Warrior

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Cant believe how easy that 2pt conversion was on him.

Devin White hasnt been great outside of his super bowl run either.

Probably be a long time before a team drafts an ILB in the top 10.

Man the melancholy in this post is just so depressing.. (I'm the same way SoonerLou)

We are just utterly defeated as a fan base right now... we need a spark... a reason for hope...
 

DVontel

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I noticed this board has had shockingly low standards for Isaiah, especially compared to Zaven when it should be the opposite considering the draft status of both.
 

SoonerLou

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I noticed this board has had shockingly low standards for Isaiah, especially compared to Zaven when it should be the opposite considering the draft status of both.
Zaven was the more WTF pick to be fair.

Isaiah came in with the jack of all trades tag. Its easier to shift blame or unreached expectations to Vance cause he's not creative enough.
 

Jetstream Green

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I think this is nonsense. I'm not going to project any character traits on these people that I don't know except for a couple of seconds I see them on the sidelines on Sundays. I'm happy to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I think that Kliff probably wants to establish his game and doesn't believe that teams are already dialed in to his tendencies at kickoff and runs his tendency-breakers later. I believe smarter coaches probably get a report of what their tendencies are from the past four weeks (which is what most opponents look at) in the runup to the game and then run tendency-breakers as part of their initial script.

Tons of teams run these little smoke routes more effectively than we do. Tons of teams run these Jet Sweeps more effectively than we do. It's not that these plays Just Don't Work in the NFL; it's that we're running them when they're least effective.

Our initial game plan was fine this week. We got consecutive first downs until Conner coughed up the ball (also the Chargers' defense is butt). Second drive we marched down the field and scored a TD despite Billy Price holding on the first play.

My feeling is that Kyler doesn't want to have input on creating the game plan, and so we're limited by the practice schedule on what we can install week-to-week because he's basically discovering it for the first time on Wednesday.
You are right, that was a little harsh, but it was not directed at Kliff the person but Kliff's behavior as a coach (leaving such psychoanalysis to professionals like Mitch). Kliff just seems to have momentary lapses of reason and often appears to think complexity equals success when on that foolish fourth down conversion he probably only had to put a hat on a hat with the way we had been able to run
 

HairZach

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I noticed this board has had shockingly low standards for Isaiah, especially compared to Zaven when it should be the opposite considering the draft status of both.
The expectations and hype are so high for top 10 picks that it can become impossible for some fans to accept when they aren't very good. They have to be good, if they aren't then the fan will have been wrong. For these players, any underperformance will be explained away by blaming the coaches.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Napoleon once made a comment that any man who charges when afraid is brave and any man who charges with no fear at all is a fool. I think when Klff goes for it early and take chances it has nothing to do with being bold but being a moron and then cracks under pressure when the risk is obvious, and the game is on the line... he coaches with blissful ignorance till his brash behavior puts him behind the eight ball and his inability to then calm down (as Kyler pointed out haha) when he realizes what he has gotten into again and again
This may be one of the best descriptions of kliff I’ve ever read. Well done.
 

Jetstream Green

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The expectations and hype are so high for top 10 picks that it can become impossible for some fans to accept when they aren't very good. They have to be good, if they aren't then the fan will have been wrong. For these players, any underperformance will be explained away by blaming the coaches.
Yes, top ten picks should have a better chance of being extra special but as you say the expectations seem to suggest that it's easy to find that extra special something when it is not, and why also extra special guys are found later for those who are not in the top ten. I will say this, I think Simmons, Collins, and yes Murray are at least good and can help a team win if coached right and used right
 

BritCard

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Simmons has one foot out the door with the Cardinals. He will end up having a good career with another team just like Reddick.

I'd trade him this offseason. You could probably get a 3rd back for his just with his physical tools and the flashes he's had.

Someone out there will believe they can make him a star. He probably can be. But not here.

Unless a new coaching team comes in and they think they can make him a star.
 

Jetstream Green

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"We can't get Payton, why even try", "We need to trade Simmons, because we can't make him a star but someone else can", "D-Hop needs to go to another team, he deserves a ring", "JJ Watt needs to go to another team, he deserves a ring". Screw this mentality, I refuse to be a monk whipping my backside shouting "mea culpa". I get the daunting reality of this team, but as a fan I have to root for something no matter how tentative the franchise... as a fan you have to root for something, or the definition of fan does not apply lol
 

BritCard

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"We can't get Payton, why even try", "We need to trade Simmons, because we can't make him a star but someone else can", "D-Hop needs to go to another team, he deserves a ring", "JJ Watt needs to go to another team, he deserves a ring". Screw this mentality, I refuse to be a monk whipping my backside shouting "mea culpa". I get the daunting reality of this team, but as a fan I have to root for something no matter how tentative the franchise... as a fan you have to root for something, or the definition of fan does not apply lol

I'm not down. It's just practical. It's year 3 and Simmons still isn't fitting here.

The best solution for the team is to trade him and get something back rather than him walk for nothing after next year.
 

BritCard

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The best solution is getting a new coaching staff :)

Well yeah that works too and it depends on the scheme but I'm not sure he's a LB. At best he's a WILL in a 4-3. He's very scheme dependent.

Might be best to cut our loses and stop trying to do the whole square peg, round hole thing.
 

Chopper0080

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I noticed this board has had shockingly low standards for Isaiah, especially compared to Zaven when it should be the opposite considering the draft status of both.
For me it has more to do with Vance than Simmons. The only chance Simmons has now is a new coaching staff. It is incredibly frustrating to see Simmons lined up outside vs slot WRs. That just isn't going to end well. I'm not going to go into how I think he should be used again, because that is pointless.

I do agree that Zaven is beginning to look like an NFL LB more consistently every week.
 

Russ Smith

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The big issue with simmons is who we COULD have had instead of him Wirfs, Jeudy, Terrell, Lamb, Jefferson(going in draft order not how I rank them now). Even Willis would have been the better pick.

Collins has been playing much better of late still not a great pick but at least so far it's not as clearly wow we missed on so and so. There's like 4 edge rushers we could have gotten instead who I'd argue are all better players than Collins, and Darrisaw has been pretty good on the OL
 

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The big issue with simmons is who we COULD have had instead of him Wirfs, Jeudy, Terrell, Lamb, Jefferson(going in draft order not how I rank them now). Even Willis would have been the better pick.

Collins has been playing much better of late still not a great pick but at least so far it's not as clearly wow we missed on so and so. There's like 4 edge rushers we could have gotten instead who I'd argue are all better players than Collins, and Darrisaw has been pretty good on the OL

This is pure hindsight though on Simmons. Many here wanted him and even those that didn't were pretty happy with the pick.
 

Russ Smith

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This is pure hindsight though on Simmons. Many here wanted him and even those that didn't were pretty happy with the pick.

I don't see why that even matters? None of us are paid to be the GM and draft. I wanted Jeudy who I still say is a better player than Simmons, obviously if I did it now I'd pick Jefferson.

The point is Keim gets paid to do this, he had a top 10 pick and took a guy who didn't have a clear position which was the primary concern all of us had, ok he's impressive in highlights but WHAT IS HE? The single biggest concern with Simmons was what position will he play, 3 years in that's the single biggest issue with him still, what position is he?

There were multiple guys we passed on who are all clearly better and didn't have that concern about what position they would play.

Keim got a pass on this before because the reason we didn't pick a WR that high was Keim got D Hop in a GREAT trade. That trade made it less necessary to get a WR but again even that we had to make that trade because Keim missed on all 3 WR's in the same draft before.
 

BritCard

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I don't see why that even matters? None of us are paid to be the GM and draft. I wanted Jeudy who I still say is a better player than Simmons, obviously if I did it now I'd pick Jefferson.

The point is Keim gets paid to do this, he had a top 10 pick and took a guy who didn't have a clear position which was the primary concern all of us had, ok he's impressive in highlights but WHAT IS HE? The single biggest concern with Simmons was what position will he play, 3 years in that's the single biggest issue with him still, what position is he?

There were multiple guys we passed on who are all clearly better and didn't have that concern about what position they would play.

Keim got a pass on this before because the reason we didn't pick a WR that high was Keim got D Hop in a GREAT trade. That trade made it less necessary to get a WR but again even that we had to make that trade because Keim missed on all 3 WR's in the same draft before.

20+ other GM's passed on Justin Jefferson. Every GM passed on Alvin Kamara multiple times.

Green bay drafted Josh Myers (Who?) at C one spot before Creed Humphrey.

Nowadays we have access to pretty much the same data as GM's. It's not 1985. We all saw Simmons play, his combine, interviews, analysts reports etc etc and people were fine with the pick.

I'm all for bashing GM's for picking guys like Andy Isabella but there isn't a GM in that has missed on a better player multiple times in a draft.

Nobody new what Justin Jefferson would be, or he would have gone top 5.
 

Russ Smith

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20+ other GM's passed on Justin Jefferson. Every GM passed on Alvin Kamara multiple times.

Green bay drafted Josh Myers (Who?) at C one spot before Creed Humphrey.

Nowadays we have access to pretty much the same data as GM's. It's not 1985. We all saw Simmons play, his combine, interviews, analysts reports etc etc and people were fine with the pick.

I'm all for bashing GM's for picking guys like Andy Isabella but there isn't a GM in that has missed on a better player multiple times in a draft.

Nobody new what Justin Jefferson would be, or he would have gone top 5.

again why does that matter?

This team is where it is in large part because of Steve Keims' drafting.

It doesn't matter what any of us said we're not the GM that made the picks.

Keim missing on 3 WR's in the same draft caused the D Hop trade. Great player love the guy but again we HAD to make that trade because Keim blew the 3 picks. Houston got the 40th overall pick that year from us and took Blacklock, the 41st overall pick was Jonathan Taylor one of the best RB's in the NFL.

We are where we are in large part because Keim has blown so many picks and then had to sign veterans or make trades to plug holes because of the bad draft picks. I'm glad we got D Hop but even that trade is a perfect example of how bad Keim has been. Simmons is another example of that, he picked a guy 8th overall that could barely get on the field as a rookie.

Saying nobody gets everything right is true but irrelevant.
 

Russ Smith

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I should add I've done this before but again what makes Simmons bad as a pick is not just that he missed but that there were so many hits on the board when we picked him.

If you just go back and redo that draft and pick Jeudy or Lamb or Wirfs we're much better off. Say we picked Lamb, that sets us up at WR better so we don't have to trade our first round pick for Hollywood Brown. I like Hollywood but I'd rather have Lamb(or Jeudy or Jefferson) on a rookie contract over Hollywood and having to give him a new deal now.

We could have used our first round pick to get help on the OL or DL or CB etc, but instead we had to trade it to get a WR.

This is a huge part of the problem with this team, we're constantly having to make another move to offset a draft mistake.
 

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