Watching the Twins succeed from afar.....

AzStevenCal

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What glut of guards have we had this year? Booker, Paul, and Shamet have all missed significant time. We had to call up Saban Lee at one point.
Yeah we even had to rely on Duane Washington for a short time who then did what all our other guards did, and missed games for injury. I think what's being overlooked is just how weak our rotation was when Mikal was being asked to carry them to wins. It's not easy to be effective and efficient when 6 or 7 of your best players are in street clothes.
 

Sunburn

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Yeah we even had to rely on Duane Washington for a short time who then did what all our other guards did, and missed games for injury. I think what's being overlooked is just how weak our rotation was when Mikal was being asked to carry them to wins. It's not easy to be effective and efficient when 6 or 7 of your best players are in street clothes.
Is Brooklyn's rotation that much stronger?
 
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Covert Rain

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I did mention when Booker was injured this year, but I dont buy this argument anyway. CP3 hasn't wanted to shoot all season. This team doesn't go out of its way to feed Ayton The whole squad was pretty much a hospital unit this year except for mikal.

So why did we not see his capability maximized here like it's being maximized in Brooklyn? He gets off the plane and suddenly hes capable of initiating the offense, attacking the defense at all three levels, generating double digit free throw attempts, and putting up Booker numbers on even better efficiency? I've never been a Monty head hunter, but this is the most damning exhibit against him imo.
It doesn't matter that CP3 doesn't want to shoot. He is still getting double digit assists and he can't do that without the ball in his hands. Ayton is still a big part of the offensive scheme here. There simply isn't enough balls to go around to put the ball in CP3, Booker and Ayton's hands and that's not including feeding perimeter shooters.

That's not even remotely the same role he is playing in Brooklyn. Also, it wasn't all of the sudden. We were starting to see signs of it happening here right before the trade. Again, that was because of all the injuries. Bridges when everyone was healthy wasn't going to see the ball enough to be a primary scorer here like you see in Brooklyn. If we didn't trade him, I think it's likely Monty builds a couple plays around him but there is no way you are taking the ball out of the other's guys hands just for Bridges. That was never going to happen here.
 
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Mainstreet

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What glut of guards have we had this year? Booker, Paul, and Shamet have all missed significant time. We had to call up Saban Lee at one point and plug him in as a starter. You're telling me Monty couldn't have utilized Mikal at guard while we were pulling in guards from the g league......a position Mikal appears to be excelling at near an all-nba level?

@Carolinacacti and I wanted to try a combo guard look with Booker and Bridges next season but that will never happen now.

I think it would have been worth a try with Chris Paul slowing down.

Yeah, I know, I will hear Booker cannot play point guard but I was looking at it as playing two combo guards.
 

AzStevenCal

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Is Brooklyn's rotation that much stronger?
I really don't watch them enough to know for sure but just based on name recognition, I would think so. Although I suspect you're talking about Brooklyn just since the trade and they do seem to be about the same level as our team when we were missing Booker and others.
 

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I really don't watch them enough to know for sure but just based on name recognition, I would think so. Although I suspect you're talking about Brooklyn just since the trade and they do seem to be about the same level as our team when we were missing Booker and others.
Yes, I was talking about Brooklyn since the trade.

There's been explanations ranging from there was too much talent for him to get the opportunity to excel here, to there was not enough talent for him to get the opportunity to excel here.

Is it possible he did not excel here to the degree we are seeing now because it was not recognized he could excel to that degree?
 

AzStevenCal

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Yes, I was talking about Brooklyn since the trade.

There's been explanations ranging from there was too much talent for him to get the opportunity to excel here, to there was not enough talent for him to get the opportunity to excel here.

Is it possible he did not excel here to the degree we are seeing now because it was not recognized he could excel to that degree?
Probably but I would include Mikal in that group that didn't fully recognize what he could do. But as many have said, he was already progressing towards this level his last month with us with the biggest difference after the move showing up in the free throw column.
 

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It doesn't matter that CP3 doesn't want to shoot. He is still getting double digit assists and he can't do that without the ball in his hands. Ayton is still a big part of the offensive scheme here. There simply isn't enough balls to go around to put the ball in CP3, Booker and Ayton's hands and that's not including feeding perimeter shooters.

That's not even remotely the same role he is playing in Brooklyn. Also, it wasn't all of the sudden. We were starting to see signs of it happening here right before the trade. Again, that was because of all the injuries. Bridges when everyone was healthy wasn't going to see the ball enough to be a primary scorer here like you see in Brooklyn. If we didn't trade him, I think it's likely Monty builds a couple plays around him but there is no way you are taking the ball out of the other's guys hands just for Bridges. That was never going to happen here.
One, you're ignoring the fact that practically everyone has been out injured this year besides mikal. There was no one to take the ball out of his hands.

Two, if Mikal is capable of scoring at volume on elite efficiency, as he is doing now, you take shots away from other guys and give those shots to Mikal. It's as simple as that. Not doing that is bad basketball.
 

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Probably but I would include Mikal in that group that didn't fully recognize what he could do. But as many have said, he was already progressing towards this level his last month with us with the biggest difference after the move showing up in the free throw column.
Mikal scored 45 points in his third game with Brooklyn. Why did we see such swift progress in recognizing what he can do there as opposed to here?
 

Covert Rain

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One, you're ignoring the fact that practically everyone has been out injured this year besides mikal. There was no one to take the ball out of his hands.

Two, if Mikal is capable of scoring at volume on elite efficiency, as he is doing now, you take shots away from other guys and give those shots to Mikal. It's as simple as that. Not doing that is bad basketball.
How am I ignoring that? I specifically said that Bridges started to show signs of stepping up prior to the trade because of inury. However, that doesn't change the fact he wouldn't have had that opportunity had the injuries not occurred. These guys have and were goign to comeback. You can't compare his opportunity with the Nets to his role here. They were completely different.

Don't get me wrong. Monty MAYBE would have had a few more plays going Bridges way had he stayed but Monty isn't overhauling his system for Bridges. It was never going to happen here.
 
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Sunburn

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How am I ignoring that? I specifically said that Bridges started to show signs of stepping up prior to the trade because of inury. However, that doesn't change the fact, he wouldn't have had that opportunity had the injuries not occurred. You can't compare his opportunity with the Nets to his role here. They were completely different.

Don't get me wrong. Monty MAYBE would have had a few more plays going Bridges way had he stayed but Monty isn't overhauling his system for Bridges. It was never going to happen here.
Then that would indicate a fundamental lack of comprehension on offense from Monty. Again, if Mikal is capable of scoring at volume on elite efficiency, as he is doing now, it is bad basketball to not maximize his utilization.
 

Covert Rain

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Then that would indicate a fundamental lack of comprehension on offense from Monty. Again, if Mikal is capable of scoring at volume on elite efficiency, as he is doing now, it is bad basketball to not maximize his utilization.
I know that seems like a simple reaction but CP3's assists for example create high % shots. Ayton shoots mostly around the rim. Booker is efficient as well. There are ramification for a team loaded with guys like that. The Nets have no such delimna and why his opportunity is much greater with the Nets.
 

Sunburn

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I know that seems like a simple reaction but CP3's assists for example create high % shots. Ayton shoots mostly around the rim. Booker is efficient as well. There are ramification for a team loaded with guys like that. The Nets have no such delimna and why his opportunity is much greater with the Nets.
I'm sorry but this is silly. Mikal is scoring at higher efficiency in Brooklyn than anyone on our team with the exception of Kevin Durant. The point of offense is maximizing points per possession. If a guy is scoring on volume at higher efficiency than everyone else, the team needs that guy to take more shots, not less.

A team taking shots away from a guy like that would be akin to the Warriors taking shots from Stef Curry because there are other guys on the team to pass the ball to.
 

Covert Rain

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I'm sorry but this is silly. Mikal is scoring at higher efficiency in Brooklyn than anyone on our team with the exception of Kevin Durant. The point of offense is maximizing points per possession. If a guy is scoring on volume at higher efficiency than everyone else, the team needs that guy to take more shots, not less.

A team taking shots away from a guy like that would be akin to the Warriors taking shots from Stef Curry because there are other guys on the team to pass the ball to.
Player Efficiency Rating is based on a players per minute production. There are multiple ways to slice this (per minutes, per game, season, etc.). That's why that's hardly a be all end all reason to completely blow up your offense. Also, that production is impacted by the number of minutes a player is playing along with shooting opportunities. He would not have the same opporunity here without impacting our best players. Here is just one type of way to slice this.

Durant is #9
Booker is #22
Deandre is #38
Chris Paul is #76
Bridges #98

 
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Sunburn

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Player Efficiency Rating is based on a players per minute production. There are multiple ways to slice this (per minutes, per game, season, etc.). That's why that's hardly a be all end all reason to completely blow up your offense. Also, that production is impacted by the number of minutes a player is playing along with shooting opportunities. He would not have the same opporunity here without impacting our best players. Here is just one type of way to slice this.

Durant is #9
Booker is #22
Deandre is #38
Chris Paul is #76
Bridges #98

Background on PER, it is not strictly a measure of scoring efficiency like we are discussing. It attempts to measure a player's overall impact relative to the "average" NBA player. It is dated and found to be flawed, which is why Clint Capela ranks above Devin Booker. Since PER's inception, a number of better advanced metrics have been developed to measure player impact.

The PER information you are using here includes Mikal's time in Phoenix this season. I am arguing he was under utilized during this time, so of course this would be reflected in his PER.

Since the trade, Mikal's PER is 22.5, which is exactly the same as Booker's this season. This speaks to our under utilization of Mikal.

True shooting % is what measures a player's scoring efficiency. Since the trade, Mikal's is .635. For comparison, Booker's is .604 this season. Deandre Ayton's is .616.

To be clear, I am not arguing that Mikal should've been taking more shots than Booker. I am arguing Mikal should've been a much greater focal point of the offense when he was here and used much more dynamically. He probably should've been getting by far the second most shots on the team. When Booker was out, Mikal probably should've been playing the Booker role. I think by the metric you yourself presented, this argument is supported.



 
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Covert Rain

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Background on PER, it is not strictly a measure of scoring efficiency like we are discussing. It attempts to measure a player's overall impact relative to the "average" NBA player. It is dated and found to be flawed, which is why Clint Capela ranks above Devin Booker. Since PER's inception, a number of better advanced metrics have been developed to measure player impact.

The PER information you are using here includes Mikal's time in Phoenix this season. I am arguing he was under utilized during this time, so of course this would be reflected in his PER.

Since the trade, Mikal's PER is 22.5, which is exactly the same as Booker's this season. This speaks to our under utilization of Mikal.

True shooting % is what measures a player's scoring efficiency. Since the trade, Mikal's is .635. For comparison, Booker's is .604 this season. Deandre Ayton's is .616.

To be clear, I am not arguing that Mikal should've been taking more shots than Booker. I am arguing Mikal should've been a much greater focal point of the offense when he was here and used much more dynamically. He probably should've been getting by far the second most shots on the team. When Booker was out, Mikal probably should've been playing the Booker role. I think by the metric you yourself presented, this argument is supported.



That's why efficiency by itself is such a poor argument. I could show you how to slice and dice it at least 5 ways. I mentioned multiple in my post. They also can break it down by general offense, shots etc. It's simply not a good argument to blow up your system.

I know you are arguing he was underutilized here but another big flaw in your argument is Monty didn't change much for KD now that he is here. He plugged him in because our offense is already designed or mid-range shooters. That tells me that Bridges mindset was different here too. He was going to defer to CP3, Booker etc. when the team was healthy. He doesn't have to worry about that with the Nets. Who is he going to defer to?
 

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That's why efficiency by itself is such a poor argument. I could show you how to slice and dice it at least 5 ways. I mentioned multiple in my post. They also can break it down by general offense, shots etc. It's simply not a good argument to blow up your system.

I know you are arguing he was underutilized here but another big flaw in your argument is Monty didn't change much for KD now that he is here. He plugged him in because our offense is already designed or mid-range shooters. That tells me that Bridges mindset was different here too. He was going to defer to CP3, Booker etc. when the team was healthy. He doesn't have to worry about that with the Nets. Who is he going to defer to?
It seems like you havent watched Mikal in Brooklyn. Mikal is excelling in the mid range. When Booker was out (and just about everyone else), why did we not see Mikal playing the Booker role as he has shown himself capable?
 

SirStefan32

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It seems like you havent watched Mikal in Brooklyn. Mikal is excelling in the mid range. When Booker was out (and just about everyone else), why did we not see Mikal playing the Booker role as he has shown himself capable?

That's a good question... for Mikal. There was nothing stopping him from doing in Phoenix what he is doing in Brooklyn. We saw some of it before the trade, but nothing like what we've been seeing since the trade. My guess is that being in a no-pressure situation worked wonders for him. I've watched all but three Nets' games since the trade, and he flat out looks like a different player. He looks like a younger Devin Booker with some more length. He is handling the ball, creating his own shot, scoring from everywhere on the court, and still playing defense.
 

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It seems like you havent watched Mikal in Brooklyn. Mikal is excelling in the mid range. When Booker was out (and just about everyone else), why did we not see Mikal playing the Booker role as he has shown himself capable?

Because there was no one to then play the Mikal role he did here. Like I said, we've had guards all season be it G-Leaguers or NBA players. We haven't had anyone other than Mikal, Craig, Saric and Cam J at forward. Who stands out in that group? Mikal. Monty didn't have the luxury of sliding Mikal to SG because there was no one to then take his spot at Forward. We had both Lee's, Paul, Payne, Washington, Booker, and Shamet all at guard. It was easier to fill in the guard spots with what we had available than sliding Mikal down and creating another hole that still hasn't been filled in Mikal's absence. That'd be like playing Ayton at PF because we need a PF but then who is our Center?
 

Covert Rain

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It seems like you havent watched Mikal in Brooklyn. Mikal is excelling in the mid range. When Booker was out (and just about everyone else), why did we not see Mikal playing the Booker role as he has shown himself capable?
He stepped up big time during that stretch trying to play a different role. He was getting better during that entire stretch it seemed like. He brought his average up to over 20 PPG from what I recall during that stretch but I can look it up. He was just trying to keep the lights on but we knew guys were coming back. Ayton was heavily leaned on to try and establish himself during that stretch too. Once he was traded? No Ayton, no CP3 and no Booker. Who was he going to defer to? This has been a growing process for him that would have been stunted once guys got back.

My guess is that being in a no-pressure situation worked wonders for him. I've watched all but three Nets' games since the trade, and he flat out looks like a different player. He looks like a younger Devin Booker with some more length. He is handling the ball, creating his own shot, scoring from everywhere on the court, and still playing defense.
So much this. As soon as those other guys got back it would have been much the same. Which is why I said

"That tells me that Bridges mindset was different here too. He was going to defer to CP3, Booker etc. when the team was healthy. He doesn't have to worry about that with the Nets. Who is he going to defer to?"

Not only is it less pressure but the expectations are different. The Nets are not going anywhere. Being asked to keep the lights on and the Nets saying...hey you go establish yourself and do your thing are completely different roles.
 
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Mainstreet

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The Suns had a lot more talent surrounding Bridges in Phoenix, so naturally his stats would be less here than in Brooklyn.

However, to anyone watching Mikal more than casually, it was clear he had turned the corner this season well before being traded and was a star in waiting.

It's so frustrating that the Suns front office didn't see it when that was their job.
 

Covert Rain

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The Suns had a lot more talent surrounding Bridges in Phoenix, so naturally his stats would be less here than in Brooklyn.

However, to anyone watching Mikal more than casually, it was clear he had turned the corner this season well before being traded and was a star in waiting.

It's so frustrating that the Suns front office didn't see it when that was their job.
He stepped up but I have seen players do that before during injuries. That doesn't always translate into "next star". I think it would have been more obvious had the team been healthy and Bridges was dominating night in and night out.
 

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That's a good question... for Mikal. There was nothing stopping him from doing in Phoenix what he is doing in Brooklyn. We saw some of it before the trade, but nothing like what we've been seeing since the trade. My guess is that being in a no-pressure situation worked wonders for him. I've watched all but three Nets' games since the trade, and he flat out looks like a different player. He looks like a younger Devin Booker with some more length. He is handling the ball, creating his own shot, scoring from everywhere on the court, and still playing defense.
I agree, he looks like a different player. 3 games into his Brooklyn stint, Mikal scored his career high 45 points. Usually it takes a player awhile to feel comfortable in a new situation, so I'm not sure I buy that he didnt feel comfortable enough to excel here. What I am seeing is Mikal being used in ways that Monty never tried to employ.

I would like to hear honest assessments from both Monty and Mikal on this.
 

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Because there was no one to then play the Mikal role he did here. Like I said, we've had guards all season be it G-Leaguers or NBA players. We haven't had anyone other than Mikal, Craig, Saric and Cam J at forward. Who stands out in that group? Mikal. Monty didn't have the luxury of sliding Mikal to SG because there was no one to then take his spot at Forward. We had both Lee's, Paul, Payne, Washington, Booker, and Shamet all at guard. It was easier to fill in the guard spots with what we had available than sliding Mikal down and creating another hole that still hasn't been filled in Mikal's absence. That'd be like playing Ayton at PF because we need a PF but then who is our Center?
Is Booker's role not more important than Mikal's? You're saying it was more valuable for the team for Mikal to continue to play his supplementary offensive role when Booker was out? That doesn't make sense.
 

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Is Booker's role not more important than Mikal's? You're saying it was more valuable for the team for Mikal to continue to play his supplementary offensive role when Booker was out? That doesn't make sense.

Who was going to take Mikal's role then? You're trying to plug one hole by creating another. Mikal's gone and we still havent found anyone to fill that role he played. KD didn't play it when he did play.

Yes Booker's role is more vital to the team but it was easier to fill that with the depth, or try fill it, than it has been to fill the role at SF, which has been proven to be a bigger role for the teams overall defense than I believe some thought prior to Mikal's departure. Mikal and others picked up the scoring slack. You're ignoring how Mikal's ascension started here before the trade.
 
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