Warren Moon on Cam Newton

[moklerman]

I certainly don't feel that the NFL or it's teams in any way wants to prevent black QB's from getting into or succeeding in the NFL.

In fact, I think it's quite the opposite. I would say the NFL is always quite anxious for a black QB to be successful and at the top of his game. It's a marketing gold mine for all involved. The problem is there hasn't been a black Joe Montana or black Tom Brady in terms of success.

But look at a guy like Vick. Even with his overall lack of success in the NFL, legal troubles and bad P.R., he still blows away any of the white QB's in terms of popularity. Vince Young would be right there with him if he could keep his head on straight. Even Air McNair was pretty danged popular but none of these guys really approached the elite levels that other qb's get to.

What Warren Moon doesn't seem to be considering is that in the past 30 years, there's only been 1 black QB with sustained success at the NFL level and that was Warren Moon(and McNabb). Doug Williams was cursed to be on a horrible team for most of his career but even he didn't sustain the true greatness he reached with the Redskins.

Kordell Stewart, Byron Leftwich, Shaun King and all the other guys that weren't very successful in the long run earned what they got. I can't think of anyone who was really good but chained to the bench unfairly.

 

[ARodg]

Cam Newton's a better quarterback than Tim Tebow is. The discussion of Newton has nothing to do with mechanics, which was (correctly) the big issue with Tebow (along with accuracy).

So Tebow's question was accuracy due to mechanichs

Newton's issues are accuracy due to being inaccurate and percieved charachter issues.

Newton's just really lucky that this QB class sucks

 

[splitsecond]

I find this highly amusing when you consider that most decent black QB's are actually overhyped and overpraised. See also: Donovan McNabb, Michael Vick.

 

[Stout]

You should see him and the rest of the homers on the other sports board.

Seriously? You're going to follow me from one board to another, ignore the post, waste everyone's time, and frickin' troll on here too?

 

[Shzm13]

Don't flatter yourself, cupcake, no one is following you. I just happened to spot you trashing something that goes against your beliefs and throw a tantrum like you usually do. I thought this was limited to the other sports board, but your whiny flare ups know no boundaries. Yet im the troll, lol.

 

[Stout]

Don't flatter yourself, cupcake, no one is following you. I just happened to spot you trashing something that goes against your beliefs and throw a tantrum like you usually do. I thought this was limited to the other sports board, but your whiny flare ups know no boundaries. Yet im the troll, lol.

Riiight. I'm the one that made a comment that had absolutely no bearing on the topic, but served only as a lame attempt to insult me. That is troll material, offering nothing to the topic and merely insulting someone.

So...Cam Newton is something that goes against my beliefs? Now that's funny. Warren Moon drew an idiotic conclusion based on past racism that he was a victim of. Nothing more, nothing less. People aren't bagging on Newton because of the color of his skin; they're bagging on him for acting stupid. They're also criticizing certain aspects of his play, but that is clearly second fiddle to his character concerns in the media.

So, I trash others' beliefs over on the World Sports board? If it is your belief that you must always insert pointless, incessant insulting posts about the U.S. Soccer team, then I guess I do trash your beliefs. You offer absolutely nothing. All you do is spout about how great the Mexican team is whilst making tasteless jokes about the U.S. Soccer team. It belongs on the Birdseed board, not in the soccer forum. Then you come over here and continue your idiocy by trolling.

And, sadly, I've given you want you want. You're simply an attention-seeker. This will probably validate your existence on the board for at least six months...in your mind.

 

[kerouac9]

So Tebow's question was accuracy due to mechanichs

Newton's issues are accuracy due to being inaccurate and percieved charachter issues.

Newton's just really lucky that this QB class sucks

Newton passed at a 1% lower rate last season than Tebow did his senior season, but had nearly 1 YPA longer. Newton is just as accurate a passer as Tebow was (the question was whether Tebow could adjust his mechanics and keep the accuracy), but was better at going down field.

Not sure why people think that Newton is inaccurate. He completed two-thirds of his passes last season against the best secondaries in college football.

I find this highly amusing when you consider that most decent black QB's are actually overhyped and overpraised. See also: Donovan McNabb, Michael Vick.

Yes... McNabb was a guy who lead his team to the playoffs 10 years running in the best division in football, as well as multiple conference championship games. Totally overrated.

Mike Vick was the most electrifying player on the football field in every game he played in, and was an MVP candidate playing in the same offense that supposed "savior" Kevin Kolb struggled to complete 60% of his passes in. Totally overhyped, especially after becoming the first quarterback to beat Favre and the Packers at Lambeau in the playoffs. Totally overpraised.

Look at all the people arguing that Vick and McNabb are better players than Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, and Tom Brady. Look at all the people who fail to see that Tony Romo is better than McNabb or Vick just because he's been less successful at winning football games than those guys.

 

[Stout]

Not sure why people think that Newton is inaccurate. He completed two-thirds of his passes last season against the best secondaries in college football.

Because the offense was tailored to his skills and he didn't have to make NFL throws I can't count the number of pundits and scouts that said he only made a handful of throws that can be compared to what he'll be asked to do in the NFL. Also, because of things like sailing the ball on out patterns at the combine.

I'm giving Newton a nickname: K9's Jesus. He's a great guy, but we're just trying to persecute him. Sure, he has some good qualities as a player. He is an incredible athlete and has a heck of an arm. That's undeniable. I can see that, and I believe every other detractor he has can see it too. Why you can't see that he has huge question marks as a player and as a person is beyond me. It erases any kind of credibility you claim to have.

 

[Monty]

Warren Moon isn't giving advice to Cam Newton. They're on opposite sides of the country. Moon is a broadcaster for the Seattle Seahawks.

Anything to smear a prospect you don't like, though, right, Stout?

BTW - Moon is advising Cam and his family. In his own words he is not Cam's personal QB coach he is "more of a consultant and advisor to the family."

But the opprobrium leveled against Cam on threads like this (it's not like Cam reached out to Warren Moon, and it's not clear that Moon has any greater role in Cam's development than someone who calls on the phone from time to time)

Changed your words there quite a bit. First you say he does not give him advice at all and then you say that you think it isnt anything more than a phone call from time to time

Anything to back your boy no matter what eh K9?

Btw there is a lot of reports out there that back up the argument that Stout and BIM have made that Moon is clearly advicing Newton and some even say he is his personal mentor. This one even goes as far as saying Cecil Newton (the great role model for Cam) has personally selected Moon to be his mentor

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/02/20/1552296/newton-puts-trust-in-moon.html?storylink=rss_xml

 

[kerouac9]

Because the offense was tailored to his skills and he didn't have to make NFL throws I can't count the number of pundits and scouts that said he only made a handful of throws that can be compared to what he'll be asked to do in the NFL. Also, because of things like sailing the ball on out patterns at the combine.

I'm giving Newton a nickname: K9's Jesus. He's a great guy, but we're just trying to persecute him. Sure, he has some good qualities as a player. He is an incredible athlete and has a heck of an arm. That's undeniable. I can see that, and I believe every other detractor he has can see it too. Why you can't see that he has huge question marks as a player and as a person is beyond me. It erases any kind of credibility you claim to have.

I've said many times that I don't like Newton at #5 overall. The avatar is because I lost a bet. I think that the question marks have been stated ad nauseum, without your qualifications of his immense promise. I think that his having a strong, two-parent household is one of his strengths as a black quarterback prospect--one of the things that differentiates him from guys like Vince Young and Mike Vick.

It's when guys here say, "I wouldn't spend a fifth-round pick on this guy," that makes no sense to me. Really? You don't think that Cam Newton is clearly a superior prospect to the Greg McElroys and Colin Kaepernicks of this draft? Really?!

Yes, there are question marks. But they're questions marks. Newton's detractors are talking like they're periods, if not exclamation points.

 

[Stout]

I've said many times that I don't like Newton at #5 overall. The avatar is because I lost a bet. I think that the question marks have been stated ad nauseum, without your qualifications of his immense promise. I think that his having a strong, two-parent household is one of his strengths as a black quarterback prospect--one of the things that differentiates him from guys like Vince Young and Mike Vick.

It's when guys here say, "I wouldn't spend a fifth-round pick on this guy," that makes no sense to me. Really? You don't think that Cam Newton is clearly a superior prospect to the Greg McElroys and Colin Kaepernicks of this draft? Really?!

Yes, there are question marks. But they're questions marks. Newton's detractors are talking like they're periods, if not exclamation points.

I wouldn't spend a fifth round pick on him, no, because I would remove him from my draft board. A lot of teams remove certain prospects for a variety of reasons from their draft board. He's one that I'd remove.

 

[Duckjake]

Moon took his teams to the playoffs 8 years in a row.

I'll take a QB like that in Arizona any day.

Goofy QB fact of the day: The Atlanta Falcons drafted Brett Farve and Michael Vick yet it was career journeyman Chris Chandler who QB'd them in the Super Bowl.

 

[Duckjake]

Because the offense was tailored to his skills and he didn't have to make NFL throws

Nobody in college makes NFL throws. It's a different game.

As for college results:

Matt Leinart was 29-40 for 365 yards against a Texas secondary that has FIVE guys in the NFL, three of them first round selections, on the biggest stage in college football. Look what that got him.

 

[desertdawg]

I think the Bengals will trade Palmer for a first rounder, and use one of their two first round picks to get Newton (who the Bengals had a workout with today) or Gabbert. If Newton is gone before the Bengals pick, I think both QBs are gone when we pick. Bengals don't seem to mind character issues (TO and Oncho for starters ) and I could even see Cinci going after Mallet. (not with their 4th)

If it does go down like that, it should make our pick real interesting.

 

[desertdawg]

I've said many times that I don't like Newton at #5 overall. The avatar is because I lost a bet. I think that the question marks have been stated ad nauseum, without your qualifications of his immense promise.

Damn , I thought you were just cool like that!

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

I think the Bengals will trade Palmer for a first rounder

News flash: Mike Ditka no longer has a job in the NFL.

No one would give up a 1st round pick for Palmer.

 

[desertdawg]

News flash: Mike Ditka no longer has a job in the NFL.

No one would give up a 1st round pick for Palmer.

A 2012 first round pick for Palmer? I could totally see that happening, especially if that team is....Frisco, Seattle, maybe even us. (That's just in the NFCW)

 

[JeffGollin]

As I studied tapes of Ryan Kerrigan and matched his performances and his measurables (same height, 40 speed, cone drill and shuttle quickness, etc.) with Robert Quinn's and Da'Quan Bowers....will Quinn and Bowers, both of whom only mustered one very good year of NCAA football---even come anywhere close to playing like Ware and/or Peppers?

It also doesn't help Warren Moon's or Cam Newton's cause when a highly touted player like Vince Young implodes...especially when it just happened this year.

People will almost always draw comparisons---many of which are just plain unfair.

Points extremely well taken.

Starting with Kerrigan, Quinn and Bowers. Measurables will take you only so far - especially when you're considering DE to OLB projections and transitions. For that, you have to thoroughly analyze game tapes and position drills, because forty times don't measure hip-fluidity, change of direction skills,. diagnostic smarts, ball skills etc.

There are two Moon story threads regarding Newton: (1) the race card and (2) The Panthers' attitude toward Newton.

I don't think most teams deliberately factor race into their decision-making, but I do think there are some unconscious biases (based on unfair comparisons) that come into play. There is probably some truth to Mitch's comment about Vince Young's impact on evaluating Newton.

But where I think Moon may be off base (in very much the same way Nawrocki is off base about Newton's attitudes and motives) is when he states - as fact - pure speculation and hearsay about team and media attitudes and motives toward Newton's attitudes and motives.

Regarding the likelihood of the Panthers drafting Newton - if Moon's reporting is accurate - that's news (i.e. something we didn't know before that we do know now).

(As a Cardinal fan, that's all I'm really interested in - (1) how good a QB will Newton be? and (2) how would Newton's going to Carolina impact the Cardinal's first round pick? All else is mostly distraction).

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

A 2012 first round pick for Palmer? I could totally see that happening, especially if that team is....Frisco, Seattle, maybe even us. (That's just in the NFCW)

It would be cool if the Niners did trade away a 2012 1st round pick for Palmer...it would make our victories, lead by our QBoF Newton, that much sweeter.

 

[Russ Smith]

Warren Moon apparently didn't pay attention to the draft last year. People we talking about how Clausen was fake and seemed very scripted. It is the exact same stuff being said about Newton.

I understand why people use the race card. There are way too many stupid people left in this world that believe non-white people are inferior, but I'd like to hope there are fewer of them left, especially in pro sports. If we ever are going to get past this we have to stop using it.

And the stupid thing is one of the most outspoken Clausen critics was... the same guy Nawrocki(sp?) who said that about newton and got Moon mad. Last time I looked, Clausen was white.

And it's not even new, one of the slams on OJ Mayo was he showed up on draft night wearing glasses, but he doesn't wear glasses, and it was later admitted his "advisers" suggested he wear them to look more professional because of all the negative stuff coming out from his time at USC.

That's the stuff they're talking about now with Newton, to counter the negative image of him from Auburn(the rumors) he's putting out this fake persona. I don't know if it's true or not but if you're about the pay a kid millions of dollars you certainly want to look at things like that because it is a character trait.

It's not racially motivated at all, it's just simple, QB is the most important position on the team, you can't have someone that nobody wants to play with like Cade McNown or Jimmy Clausen, and you have to think long and hard about a guy nobody trusts. Big Ben seems to be an outlier, generally speaking those sorts of people don't pan out at QB.

 

[kerouac9]

And the stupid thing is one of the most outspoken Clausen critics was... the same guy Nawrocki(sp?) who said that about newton and got Moon mad. Last time I looked, Clausen was white.

And it's not even new, one of the slams on OJ Mayo was he showed up on draft night wearing glasses, but he doesn't wear glasses, and it was later admitted his "advisers" suggested he wear them to look more professional because of all the negative stuff coming out from his time at USC.

That's the stuff they're talking about now with Newton, to counter the negative image of him from Auburn(the rumors) he's putting out this fake persona. I don't know if it's true or not but if you're about the pay a kid millions of dollars you certainly want to look at things like that because it is a character trait.

It's not racially motivated at all, it's just simple, QB is the most important position on the team, you can't have someone that nobody wants to play with like Cade McNown or Jimmy Clausen, and you have to think long and hard about a guy nobody trusts. Big Ben seems to be an outlier, generally speaking those sorts of people don't pan out at QB.

Okay, but is anyone near Auburn saying this about Cam Newton? When Clausen was with the Irish and McCown & J.P. Losman were at UCLA, their reputations as prickly personalities were well-established (something that seems easily dismissed about Ryan Mallett, for some reason). Cam Newton walked onto the Auburn campus and became a clear and effective leader of that team. When they went down early to Alabama, Newton took control of the team and lead them back with his arm.

There's no question about Cam Newton's leadership ability, any more than there was about #7 or Vince Young. Whether a player loves football/can handle the spotlight is a different question than the one you're bringing up here.

 

[ajcardfan]

Nobody in college makes NFL throws. It's a different game.

As for college results:

Matt Leinart was 29-40 for 365 yards against a Texas secondary that has FIVE guys in the NFL, three of them first round selections, on the biggest stage in college football. Look what that got him.

Matt is doing pretty good for himself financially. A first round tender at this point in his career is not too bad considering what happened last year.

 

[Russ Smith]

Okay, but is anyone near Auburn saying this about Cam Newton? When Clausen was with the Irish and McCown & J.P. Losman were at UCLA, their reputations as prickly personalities were well-established (something that seems easily dismissed about Ryan Mallett, for some reason). Cam Newton walked onto the Auburn campus and became a clear and effective leader of that team. When they went down early to Alabama, Newton took control of the team and lead them back with his arm.

There's no question about Cam Newton's leadership ability, any more than there was about #7 or Vince Young. Whether a player loves football/can handle the spotlight is a different question than the one you're bringing up here.

Sure but the difference is Newton was leading kids his age, not NFL age players.

The question is does the character flaws he's had to this point mean you can trust him with an NFL team and a high draft QB salary?

That's not a racial question that's a character question and Warren Moon trying to make it racial is ludicrous.

I'm not saying he's just like Jimmy Clausen, I'm saying the questions about him are similar to what they were with Clausen in that there were things about him as a person that might hold him back from being a good NFL QB. With Clausen it's that teammates hate the kid, and don't believe in him. With Newton it's this apparent phoney aspect that's in question. WHen thigns are going well like at Auburn, nobody cares, but how will he deal with adversity because we both know there WILL be adversity in the NFL.

That's why that snap where he was supposed to take a knee and didn't gets brought up, it's that kind of seek the spotlight mentality that might be scaring some NFL teams. What if he does that in one of our games, fumbles, and loses the game?

You're about to invest millions of dollars into the player you pick, you have to worry about some of the stuff in their past.

 

[kerouac9]

Sure but the difference is Newton was leading kids his age, not NFL age players.

The question is does the character flaws he's had to this point mean you can trust him with an NFL team and a high draft QB salary?

That's not a racial question that's a character question and Warren Moon trying to make it racial is ludicrous.

I'm not saying he's just like Jimmy Clausen, I'm saying the questions about him are similar to what they were with Clausen in that there were things about him as a person that might hold him back from being a good NFL QB. With Clausen it's that teammates hate the kid, and don't believe in him. With Newton it's this apparent phoney aspect that's in question. WHen thigns are going well like at Auburn, nobody cares, but how will he deal with adversity because we both know there WILL be adversity in the NFL.

That's why that snap where he was supposed to take a knee and didn't gets brought up, it's that kind of seek the spotlight mentality that might be scaring some NFL teams. What if he does that in one of our games, fumbles, and loses the game?

You're about to invest millions of dollars into the player you pick, you have to worry about some of the stuff in their past.

But the character flaws aren't personality-based or on-the-field-based. Did Reggie Bush's problems destroy the Saints locker-room? Of course not--it wasn't a distraction at all. The Saints won 11 games and the Bush saga was fodder for talk radio but it didn't affect anything on the field.

Newton didn't have to deal with adversity in his college career? Are you kidding me? He left Florida (whether because Tebow decided to come back or for academic issues is irrelevant), then rallied at Blinn (leading them to an NJCAA championship), coming back to Auburn where he lead the Tigers to a National Championship while NCAA investigations were swirling around him. He never hid from the media's questions, including going on the Jim Rome show and directly discussing the laptop incident without dodging the question at all. Vince Young went into his shell under far less concerning matters at Tennessee.

I agree that you have to worry about stuff in the guy's past; I'm not putting Newton at the top of my board and saying that there aren't issues of concern, but those issues have been investigated by people in the know, and those concerns don't seem to be leaking out despite every journalist covering the draft desperately wanting a piece of that story.

As I said (and you didn't respond to): Newton is from a stable, two-parent family and isn't going to be responsible for carrying the burden of multiple generations. He's not Mike Vick or Vince Young in that respect. He's not a guy who goes out and seeks the limelight. He's not doing media all over the place right now (seeking the limelight); he's getting his business done working out with teams and trying to get better as a quarterback.

Warren Moon saying that the criticism is racially based is uncalled for, although I think that the controversy surrounding the prospect outside of the NFL, which has little basis in what teams and scouts are actually saying, or his unquestioned excellence on the field, is confusing.

What if Newton fumbled in the National Championship game? Does that erase the perfect season that Auburn had had up to that point? The fact is that Newton took a risk-free play where he protected the ball and still gained 2 yards. It'd be a different question if he went flying over the offensive line and extended the ball outward. There were 51 seconds left on the clock at the time; Newton burned more time off the clock as the OL reset and the refs sorted out the play. I'm not saying that no one should be concerned about it, but after the game the USA Today live-blogger of the game described Newton as "essentially taking a knee" to set up the field goal. There's a lot of re-visionism going on as people who hate Cam Newton try to come up with more legitimate reasons than just general dislike.

Is Newton a Top 5 pick in this draft? I don't think so. Is Newton a first round pick in this draft? Of course. Is Newton a Top 15 pick in this draft? Probably.

But this isn't a kid from the ghetto who is going to spend all his money on weed and cars and six million dollar houses after he gets paid. That was the concern that pushed Darnell Dockett into the 3rd round. The money paid to a Top 10 pick is a concern with every player except maybe the ones who are independently wealthy anyway like #7 or Andrew Luck.

You made an explicit comparison to Cade McNown and Jimmy Clausen with Cam Newton as a "guy nobody trusts." The evidence at Auburn versus at UCLA and Notre Dame defies that comparison. What would make you think that Cam Newton is a guy that no one in the lockerroom would "trust"?

 

[desertdawg]

Aaron Rodgers met a lot of criticism going into the draft. And full of himself? The nerve of some people, the championship belt thing and his ego was totally unjustifiable because he hadn't won a ...wait...sounds like a Cam Newton to me.