Warners 2nd half stats in '07

[moklerman]

how about half of last season vs the other half?

Leinart only played in 2 full games and portions of 3 more. On top of that, the number of handoffs each QB might have handed off would be terribly skewed since Warner's first 3 games were specifically hurry-up situations where the running game was purposely abandoned or minimized. In the first two games, James averaged 3.5 then 5.3. Then 5.7 and 3.7. Basically, in terms of ypa, he was all over the scale all year long. I really don't believe that the speed of the handoffs had much to do with it. As the offense rounded into shape and as the year rolled along, James' averages started to stabilize and the running game became respectable. 4 of the last 6 games James averaged 4.3 ypa or better so I don't see Warner's handoffs as problematic.

Just watch the play develop, youll see what I mean.

Well, I've watched already and don't agree. Warner's handoffs have little if anything to do with the Cardinals' running woes.

As I said, I am an unbiased cardinals fan, not a fully biased fan like you. I do not care who our QB is I am just pointing out that in no way should warner have a better shot at getting the job, he was benched for a reason.

While I admit my bias affects my perception it doesn't eliminate my reason or even objectivity. A fair shot and "better shot" are quite different and I don't believe I've advocated Warner being given preferential treatment. I would have made him the incumbent but I see the reasoning behind doing things the way Whis has done them.

While I supported the decision to bench Warner in '06 and, ultimately(not at the time but now knowing his fumbling was indeed a physical limitation) his subsequent benchings in St. Louis and New York, I don't feel that he has the same limitation while wearing the gloves. Much like a player, for example, who wears a knee brace. The difference between wearing and not wearing the brace would impact my opinion of their effectiveness.

Warner was indeed benched for a reason but so was Leinart pulled from games last year. I think Warner is in a different place now and should be given an opportunity to prove he is the best option for the Cardinals. Just like Leinart is getting a chance to redeem himself.

 

[BigRedRage]

according to coach speak he is getting a shot.

Someone else nailed the coffin saying "if the line doesnt improve whoever starts the season will not be who starts the 2nd half"

 

[moklerman]

Someone else nailed the coffin saying "if the line doesnt improve whoever starts the season will not be who starts the 2nd half"

I agree but am not as concerned about that. I think the continuity and familiarity that comes with being in year 2 will be an automatic improvement. Injuries can't be controlled so there's no use thinking about that aspect so I'm actually pretty confident that the o-line will be better than last year. Good? Maybe. Better? No doubt.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

show me his previous 2 years stats with the team. Fumbles and interceptions + games he specifically lost.

Heck go back that last 4 year before last year.

Warner has had his problems. He is not "the sure thing" by a long shot, IMO.

But no one can deny he had a heck of year last year.

 

[moklerman]

Heck go back that last 4 year before last year.

Warner has had his problems. He is not "the sure thing" by a long shot, IMO.

Seriously, is the dramatic difference between his numbers with the gloves and without not really worth consideration?

 

[BigRedRage]

Seriously, is the dramatic difference between his numbers with the gloves and without not really worth consideration?

not for me at all.

He's also a year older.

 

[Cards232]

Can someone get mokler a Youtube clip of Warners arm extended out to hand off the ball 5 seconds before it gets to Edge please?

No offense man, but now you're showing your ignorance of football. Moklerman is right, Manning has been doing this for years. The reason? It helps freeze the linebackers on play action for that split second more. It's a theory not accepted by all, but Peyton has made a good living off of it. Warner never used it until Whis. implemented it last year. Coaches call.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

No offense man, but now you're showing your ignorance of football. Moklerman is right, Manning has been doing this for years. The reason? It helps freeze the linebackers on play action for that split second more. It's a theory not accepted by all, but Peyton has made a good living off of it. Warner never used it until Whis. implemented it last year. Coaches call.

Whoa you are kidding me right? You realize that because of his elbow injury he had to exaggerate the hand off to get his arm extended. Thats why tape of him last year will look COMPLETELY different from when his elbow is healthy and he was handing off.

And your totally wrong on the Wiz implementing that for Warner - if that was the case he would have never would have pulled him on the goal line. Again that was done because of the injury. I can pull reports from the time if you need further convincing.

Its apples and oranges. Peyton is one of the best play action guys in league history and his arm strecth is part of that. For all Warners credentials this has never been a strong suit of his. He was doing it last year because of the elbow.

But since your calling out my knowledge you must have all the facts, right?

 

[Stout]

No offense man, but now you're showing your ignorance of football. Moklerman is right, Manning has been doing this for years. The reason? It helps freeze the linebackers on play action for that split second more. It's a theory not accepted by all, but Peyton has made a good living off of it. Warner never used it until Whis. implemented it last year. Coaches call.

Ah, you're missing the point. Peyton Manning does stretch out like that, but he also sprints out of his stance and farther down the line than any other QB, so as to give his RB a head start to the corner and help the running play. With Warner (and other QBs with slow handoffs, to be sure), it's mainly dropping back and slowly handing off the ball. Worlds different.

 

[conraddobler]

The NFL is a pro league.

The only reason you'd start Matt is if you're worried about the future, but with this team the future is now.

I believe the QB who gives us the best chance to win now should start, the only time you deviate from that is when the team itself is growing and in no danger of going to the playoffs.

Otherwise the best QB starts period.

I believe we qualify as a team with playoff chances, so whoever starts needs to earn the job period.

IMO Warner will win this, if Matt dosen't like it he can beat him out, it's really that simple.

The one thing I like about Whiz is his desire to WIN NOW, forget tomorrow, it may never come, feelings are like posteriors, everyone has them but not everyone gets paid to do this, it's a business and that means you win your job or you sit.

 

[BigRedRage]

No offense man, but now you're showing your ignorance of football. Moklerman is right, Manning has been doing this for years. The reason? It helps freeze the linebackers on play action for that split second more. It's a theory not accepted by all, but Peyton has made a good living off of it. Warner never used it until Whis. implemented it last year. Coaches call.

Manning gets to the running back FAST

 

[Arizona's Finest]

No offense man, but now you're showing your ignorance of football. Moklerman is right, Manning has been doing this for years. The reason? It helps freeze the linebackers on play action for that split second more. It's a theory not accepted by all, but Peyton has made a good living off of it. Warner never used it until Whis. implemented it last year. Coaches call.

 

[Cards232]

Are you implying that Warner implimented this on his own, or that Whis did this just for Warner for whatever reason? It's something that Warner talked about in interviews during TC last year. It was Whis.'s call, not Warner's. Warner had never used the technique before last year.

Also, for those that belabor Warner & his lack of speed which must translate into a lack of effectiveness, I would remind you that neither Marino, Fouts, or any number of HOF's had enormous footspeed. In fact, I'd lay dollars down that Warner would cream Marino in a foot race. The meaning? Nothing. Foot speed has very little to do w/ being a great qb. Look at Vick.

 

[moklerman]

Also, for those that belabor Warner & his lack of speed which must translate into a lack of effectiveness...

Good post. Agree on all points.

 

[BigRedRage]

Are you implying that Warner implimented this on his own, or that Whis did this just for Warner for whatever reason? It's something that Warner talked about in interviews during TC last year. It was Whis.'s call, not Warner's. Warner had never used the technique before last year.

Also, for those that belabor Warner & his lack of speed which must translate into a lack of effectiveness, I would remind you that neither Marino, Fouts, or any number of HOF's had enormous footspeed. In fact, I'd lay dollars down that Warner would cream Marino in a foot race. The meaning? Nothing. Foot speed has very little to do w/ being a great qb. Look at Vick.

so it is impossible that Kurt is too slow for the stretch running plays? that has nothing to do with his throwing ability as a QB.

 

[moklerman]

so it is impossible that Kurt is too slow for the stretch running plays? that has nothing to do with his throwing ability as a QB.

What about the idea that the team continued to run it all year with Warner at QB and Edge's numbers were as good or better than with Leinart at QB? If Warner was slowing Edge down, wouldn't it show in his production or lack thereof?

Still, the idea that Warner shouldn't be QB because he hands off too slow is just so unenlightened and indicative of what a pointless exercise it is to frequent a message board that it depresses me.

 

[earthsci]

Still, the idea that Warner shouldn't be QB because he hands off too slow is just so unenlightened and indicative of what a pointless exercise it is to frequent a message board that it depresses me.

We don't want you to be depressed.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

What about the idea that the team continued to run it all year with Warner at QB and Edge's numbers were as good or better than with Leinart at QB? If Warner was slowing Edge down, wouldn't it show in his production or lack thereof?

Still, the idea that Warner shouldn't be QB because he hands off too slow, forces passes in critical times, fumbles the ball too much, and telegraphs the run is just so unenlightened and indicative of what a pointless exercise it is to frequent a message board that it depresses me.

fixed that for you.

 

[Cards232]

so it is impossible that Kurt is too slow for the stretch running plays? that has nothing to do with his throwing ability as a QB.

Well, if Kurt is too slow to run the stretch running plays, wouldn't it make sense to just not run the stretch tecnique w/ him? It's a theory that very few teams employ anyway. Again, it was Whis' call. Does anyone that has attended camp this year know if they're still trying to use this techique w/ either Warner or Leinart?

 

[joeshmo]

No offense man, but now you're showing your ignorance of football. Moklerman is right, Manning has been doing this for years. The reason? It helps freeze the linebackers on play action for that split second more. It's a theory not accepted by all, but Peyton has made a good living off of it. Warner never used it until Whis. implemented it last year. Coaches call.

I never got it when someone says no offense then turns around and insults the person.

Which is what AZ finest was implying, the insult.

 

[joeshmo]

I dont think its a matter of Warner not being able to get to were he needs to get for the hand off. I mean it isnt like Edge is exactly a blazer himself. Its a matter of Warner never utilizing the audible to run the ball to take advantage of the defensive set. Kurt said it himself wen he audibles he is going to audible to a pass play 9 out of ten times. Takes carries away from Edge and takes away carries that he would usually have under Matt against otpimum defensive sets to run the ball when Matt does audible. It is exactly what Edge talks about when every he has spoken about the QB competition, and why he in some interviews talked about frustrations he had(that and he has had the lowest recieving totals of his career last year).

2007 season - Edges yards per game went from 87 yards a game with Matt or another QB down to 70 yards a game with Warner.

2006 season - Edge yards per game was 75 with Matt and 67 with Warner.

There is a clear difference in run game with Matt compared to Warner and Edge himself has noticed and said as much.

 

[BigRedRage]

What about the idea that the team continued to run it all year with Warner at QB and Edge's numbers were as good or better than with Leinart at QB? If Warner was slowing Edge down, wouldn't it show in his production or lack thereof?

Still, the idea that Warner shouldn't be QB because he hands off too slow is just so unenlightened and indicative of what a pointless exercise it is to frequent a message board that it depresses me.

I didnt say he shouldnt be the QB because he hands off to slow, I said its a part about his game I do not like and a part of matts game I do like.

It is obvious you will support Warner through thick and thin, good for you, doesnt mean we need to change our minds.

Kurt shouldnt be QB because:
turnovers
poor running game technique
poor feet
poor decision making
inablity to throw the ball away
useless without excellent Oline play
etc..

Matt has issues too but hes new, Kurt is not and is as polished as he is going to get.

 

[BigRedRage]

I never got it when someone says no offense then turns around and insults the person.

Which is what AZ finest was implying, the insult.

kinda like saying "pun intended" because you think the person you said it to is too stupid to catch your poor attempt at humor!

No offense but I am going to say something offensive.

 

[BigRedRage]

I dont think its a matter of Warner not being able to get to were he needs to get for the hand off. I mean it isnt like Edge is exactly a blazer himself. Its a matter of Warner never utilizing the audible to run the ball to take advantage of the defensive set. Kurt said it himself wen he audibles he is going to audible to a pass play 9 out of ten times. Takes carries away from Edge and takes away carries that he would usually have under Matt against otpimum defensive sets to run the ball when Matt does audible. It is exactly what Edge talks about when every he has spoken about the QB competition, and why he in some interviews talked about frustrations he had(that and he has had the lowest recieving totals of his career last year).

2007 season - Edges yards per game went from 87 yards a game with Matt or another QB down to 70 yards a game with Warner.

2006 season - Edge yards per game was 75 with Matt and 67 with Warner.

There is a clear difference in run game with Matt compared to Warner and Edge himself has noticed and said as much.

Quality post Joe.

 

[Cards232]

I never got it when someone says no offense then turns around and insults the person.

Which is what AZ finest was implying, the insult.

My intent was not to offend, but rather to point out that one should not mock (as he was seemingly doing w/ Moklerman) w/o knowing what you're talking about. It's something that seems fairly common around here.

AZF seemed to infer that this was Warner's decision or doing. That was not the case. Warner was doing what he was told by the coaches, & something he was unaccustomed to doing. Yet I still think it would be interesting to see the time difference between Warner & Manning using that technique. I bet the difference would be minuscule & surprising to most. Manning holds the ball out there forever, it's part of the technique.