TWolves, Warriors talk trade for Anthony Randolph

[Russ Smith]

I averaged out only the games in which he played 30 minutes or over this season. His stats per game: 32.6 minutes, 17 points, 9.6 rebounds, 2.6 blocks. His salary is 1.8 million. Not bad eh?

I would submit that's a highly misleading stat.

First if my math is correct that is a total of 7 games it's a very small sample size.

Second, the reason he played over 30 minutes in those games is he was playing well so Nellie left him in the game. When he doesn't play well or make a quick impact, Nellie often buried him because of his defense or perceived lack of effort. After he got hurt he was criticized because he was often not present on the bench, there are some "character" issues with him and that's why he and Nelson don't see eye to eye. Don doesn't think he plays hard consistently so when he thinks he's dogging it, he doesn't play much.

So looking at the 30+ minute games skews his stats because it's really a subset of games where he played well and earned more minutes. It doesn't mean he will always play that well given those minutes.

I like the kid quite a bit but he has to get better in certain areas particularly effort and consistency. HE and Morrow are very similar there Morrow will get 30 one night and 5 the next, yes that's a 17.5 average but it's highly misleading. Randolph has had
a couple of stretches of several nice games in a row but in general he's been very up and down. He's very young and has the upside, but he has to give consistent effort and he has to work on his weaknesses, right now he has the rep of working on his strengths.

 

[Covert Rain]

I would submit that's a highly misleading stat.

First if my math is correct that is a total of 7 games it's a very small sample size.

Second, the reason he played over 30 minutes in those games is he was playing well so Nellie left him in the game. When he doesn't play well or make a quick impact, Nellie often buried him because of his defense or perceived lack of effort. After he got hurt he was criticized because he was often not present on the bench, there are some "character" issues with him and that's why he and Nelson don't see eye to eye. Don doesn't think he plays hard consistently so when he thinks he's dogging it, he doesn't play much.

So looking at the 30+ minute games skews his stats because it's really a subset of games where he played well and earned more minutes. It doesn't mean he will always play that well given those minutes.

I like the kid quite a bit but he has to get better in certain areas particularly effort and consistency. HE and Morrow are very similar there Morrow will get 30 one night and 5 the next, yes that's a 17.5 average but it's highly misleading. Randolph has had
a couple of stretches of several nice games in a row but in general he's been very up and down. He's very young and has the upside, but he has to give consistent effort and he has to work on his weaknesses, right now he has the rep of working on his strengths.

If Nellie benches anybody for lack of defense that is saying something considering how little defense they play anyway.

 

[elindholm]

I am so NOT suggesting that the players and agents will willingly take less for some altruistic reason. I'm suggesting that although it's a long shot, the teams themselves will show some fiscal restraint and not offer contracts that will clearly become untenable under the new CBA. Sorry, if I didn't make that clear in my earlier post.

Fair enough. I think some organizations will have the foresight to steer away from making huge offers for this reason, but not enough. We can pretty much count on the Knicks, Nets, Heat, and Bulls making the strongest offers they can.

 

[itlnsunsfan]

Randolph has great numbers for 22 minutes a game, you nay-sayers submit that doesn't always translate to great numbers playing 30+ minutes. Randolph has excellent numbers in games he plays 30+ minutes, you guys say that's not a large enough sample size and the numbers are skewed. It seems like you guys just have your minds made up against the dude. Let me ask you this though, isn't he better than nothing? Who would you rather have, must include price. I say Randolph is a hell of a deal at what he produces, the salary he commands, and the potential he offers. And allow me to submit something else. Another negative I've seen posted on here is that he seems to make the spectacular play, but doesn't really play the fundamentals of defense, etc, sort of like a young, pre-injury Amare. Wouldn't it be great to have a do-over with Amare, where we could start from the beginning to build a foundation of defense and fundamentals with him, something the original Amare was robbed of by D'antoni according to a couple of posters here? And no knee issues. Wouldn't that be fantastic? How about at a fraction of the cost as what a post-injury, present day Amare price tag goes for. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

 

[tobiazz]

Randolph has great numbers for 22 minutes a game, you nay-sayers submit that doesn't always translate to great numbers playing 30+ minutes. Randolph has excellent numbers in games he plays 30+ minutes, you guys say that's not a large enough sample size and the numbers are skewed. It seems like you guys just have your minds made up against the dude. Let me ask you this though, isn't he better than nothing? Who would you rather have, must include price. I say Randolph is a hell of a deal at what he produces, the salary he commands, and the potential he offers. And allow me to submit something else. Another negative I've seen posted on here is that he seems to make the spectacular play, but doesn't really play the fundamentals of defense, etc, sort of like a young, pre-injury Amare. Wouldn't it be great to have a do-over with Amare, where we could start from the beginning to build a foundation of defense and fundamentals with him, something the original Amare was robbed of by D'antoni according to a couple of posters here? And no knee issues. Wouldn't that be fantastic? How about at a fraction of the cost as what a post-injury, present day Amare price tag goes for. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

I agree with all of this. The only problem is that the Suns have nothing to send to GS for Randolph.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

It amazes me how dissatisfied people are with this last year. This last year was awesome.

This FTW - Absolutely one of my favorite Suns teams ever!

 

[krazyasiankid]

Anthony Randolph = underrated.

 

[Irish]

Eric says that nobody in their prime took less money to play for a winner (I am parphrasing). I suspect that the gap between the playoff teams and lottery teams suggests the flow has been from lottery teams to playoff teams over the past half dozen hears. If everyone wants to most possible money, you'd think the flow would be entirely toward the teams with the most cap space.

Actually it will be very interesting to see if Amare jumps to a bottom feeder. Right now it's all theory to him, but teams that have $20 million plus below the cap are looking for miracles and the pressure is considerable.

Right now it appears that the only playoff team able to afford Amare i the Heat, but they have to figure out how to afford to keep Wade too.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Eric says that nobody in their prime took less money to play for a winner (I am parphrasing). I suspect that the gap between the playoff teams and lottery teams suggests the flow has been from lottery teams to playoff teams over the past half dozen hears. If everyone wants to most possible money, you'd think the flow would be entirely toward the teams with the most cap space.

Actually it will be very interesting to see if Amare jumps to a bottom feeder. Right now it's all theory to him, but teams that have $20 million plus below the cap are looking for miracles and the pressure is considerable.

Right now it appears that the only playoff team able to afford Amare i the Heat, but they have to figure out how to afford to keep Wade too.

they have enough money to sign both.

 

[Chaplin]

they have enough money to sign both.

But they don't appear to have the desire to sign him. My guess is that Pat Riley sees the defensive problems Amare has as well--and that's why he prefers Boozer (and of course, the money issue is a factor).

 

[Cheesebeef]

But they don't appear to have the desire to sign him.

we'll see. I've read the same thing, but I also remember that they were making a big push to trade for him at the deadline as well. It's hard to tell what's truth and what's fiction these days in reagrds to any of the FA madness about to happen. We'll know soon enough.

My guess is that Pat Riley sees the defensive problems Amare has as well--and that's why he prefers Boozer (and of course, the money issue is a factor).

My guess is Riley sees that Boozer is an atrocious defender as well, although he rebounds better than Amare. I'm thinking going after Boozer is much more about price and being able to add another piece alongside him. I don't think Amare and Wade or Wade and Boozer really vaults them all that much forward. Maybe as far as getting further in the playoffs, but they're still a ways from winning a title with that duo. I'm thinking they make a huge push for Bosh. He's basically the middle ground between Amare and Boozer... Not quite as good offensive player as Amare, but a better rebounder, while being a much better offensive player than Boozer, but not quite the rebounder. At least that's what I would do if I was the Heat.

 

[Chaplin]

My guess is Riley sees that Boozer is an atrocious defender as well, although he rebounds better than Amare. I'm thinking going after Boozer is much more about price and being able to add another piece alongside him. I don't think Amare and Wade or Wade and Boozer really vaults them all that much forward. Maybe as far as getting further in the playoffs, but they're still a ways from winning a title with that duo. I'm thinking they make a huge push for Bosh. He's basically the middle ground between Amare and Boozer... Not quite as good offensive player as Amare, but a better rebounder, while being a much better offensive player than Boozer, but not quite the rebounder. At least that's what I would do if I was the Heat.

Definitely agree about Bosh, but I keep thinking that he will go to the Knicks, who can then get Joe Johnson or something. I just wish this would all be over with. It's fun to speculate, but enough is enough!

 

[Irish]

I'm curious, are their any 6'9" power forwards that are great on defense? Do they have to be heavy to make up for length?

The evolution of the game toward 7'0" athletic guys with long arms seems to be making it increasing hard for 6'8" power guys to be effective defensders (I think of Boozer as an example).

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

The problem with Randolph is right now he's one of those guys who makes the spectacular play, the drive and dunk, the big block etc, but he doesn't make all the little plays that help you win games. He holds the ball too long, he doesn't really score in the post as well as he should because he he can't hold his position, not strong enough. His outside shot is improving but still needs work, his defense is all going for steals and blocks, gives up position way too easily.

he has a world of talent and when he's right he can look outstanding in Nellie's system, but slow the game down and he can just disappear. It's the same problem Morrow has in a halfcourt game he has a tendency to just disappear because if you guard the 3 he does little else. In fullcourt he can leak out or drift to the corners and get open 3's in transition, and he's developed a fake and drive move, but in the halfcourt he doesn't do any of that.

The Twolves really only have 2 players I'd want as a Warriors fan, Jefferson or Kevin Love. IF they can't get either of them I'd much rather seem them trade for the pick and get DeMarcus Cousins, I know he's immature and has conditioning issues but his upside is enormous.

if the Dubs could get the 4th and A. Jeff I would be all for it; I am not a fan of Kevin Love...

 

[elindholm]

I'm curious, are their any 6'9" power forwards that are great on defense?

Okay, I'll ask one more time: Why do you keep saying Stoudemire is 6' 9"? He's the same height as any other NBA player listed at 6' 10". If you want to downgrade him to his height in stocking feet, you have to do that for everyone else.

Rodman was a pretty darn good defensive PF and he was 6' 8" -- in NBA height, that is.

 

[AzStevenCal]

if the Dubs could get the 4th and A. Jeff I would be all for it; I am not a fan of Kevin Love...

If the Warriors can get Al Jefferson and the 4th pick for Randolph then I'll know who to nominate to replace Kerr for Suns GM. It will be the thieving Warriors GM who swung the deal. I don't think you could get Jefferson for Randolph and a number one let alone this deal. And I hope GS feels the same about Love as you do because I'd love to see the Suns swing a deal for the guy (I'd rather have Love than Jefferson and Randolph combined).

Steve

 

[Irish]

Okay, I'll ask one more time: Why do you keep saying Stoudemire is 6' 9"? He's the same height as any other NBA player listed at 6' 10". If you want to downgrade him to his height in stocking feet, you have to do that for everyone else.

Rodman was a pretty darn good defensive PF and he was 6' 8" -- in NBA height, that is.

Actually, I suppose Amare with shoes has a head at 6'10", but IMHO his arms aren't anywhere close to some of these guys listed at 6'11" to 7'0". I wish they'd give us up to date, real stats about length and weight.

For example, Camby is listed at 6'11" and he is a shot blocking machine due to his reach. Ratliff was listed at only 6'10" and he had several years of 3+ blocks although his rebounding was only average.

There have been some great undersized rebounders. Rodman was a great rebounder at 6'7". Unseld at 6'7" and no hops averaged 14 rpg for his entire career. Jerry Lucas was only 6'8" and had a career 15.6 rpg average But the trend works against undersized guys as guys like Gasol have become the target of GM's.

 

[elindholm]

Actually, I suppose Amare with shoes has a head at 6'10", but IMHO his arms aren't anywhere close to some of these guys listed at 6'11" to 7'0". I wish they'd give us up to date, real stats about length and weight.

Length isn't going to change much during a player's career, but I agree that updated weights would be nice. Wingspan would also be great.

It used to be that all serious draft prospects went to the combine in Chicago (?) and got measured there, as well as put through some basic tests for vertical leap, upper-body strength, etc. That was when I first knew that Chris Wilcox was going to be a bust: He measured very small and not all that strong. Stoudemire was part of the same draft class, and my memory was that his numbers looked solid but not eye-popping. (I could be wrong about that.) The prime physical specimen in that draft was Nene.

A few (?) years ago, the unofficial practice changed, and now only second-tier prospects get measured. Anyone projected to be near the lottery keeps their measurements a closely guarded secret. So we have even less of an idea than before about how big or strong any of these guys are. It's a big disappointment.

But the trend works against undersized guys as guys like Gasol have become the target of GM's.

I agree that length is an asset for both rebounding and defense, but we already knew that. If you watch games, it's evident that Stoudemire isn't coming close to doing what he can with the body he has. That's where the frustration comes from.

 

[Irish]

If all the rumors about Amare leaving are true, then we will only watch in frustration that he did not get the training he needed here if he gets a lot better quickly.

 

[SunsTzu]

Amare's standing reach as a 19 y/o rookie was over 9ft which even if it never changed would still be considered at worst average. Anything under 9ft reach is undersized.

 

[slinslin]

Amare isn't short, he is just not big.

He is just about the average size wise. The problem is he isn't strong enough in the post because the Suns have always wanted to keep him from putting up too much additional pounds and muscle fearing it would wear on his quickness and athleticism which is ******** in my opinion.

Dwight Howard clearly didn't suffer athletically since he put up an unbelievable amount of muscle between his rookie season and 2nd year.


Portland and the Lakers are an exception with their 7 footers. Gasol/Bynum and Camby/Aldridge all are close to 7' or taller.

We are just a small team overall, Channing Frye is 6'11 but plays like 6'4. Lopez is the only "big" guy we have to so say and even he could use 15-20 lbs more I'd say.

It would be nice if we could somehow get a 6'11/7 type PF like Cousins or Whiteside to play alongside Lopez. Or if we could get any decent big bodies at all since our roster will look pretty much like this:


Lopez/---/---
---/---
Hill/Dudley/Clark
JRich/Barbosa
Nash/Dragic

I just hope Clark isn't our PF of the future because he would finally give us very good size at another position and potential mismatches. We would just have to get playing time for him that Hill and Dudley eat up right now.

 

[SunsTzu]

Amare said the reason he reduced his weight was to take pressure off his knees after his injuries.

I do think the role the Suns had Amare play really hurt his growth as an all around player. His first 2 seasons he was much more aggressive in contesting shots yet I feel like with D'Antoni in charge he preferred to keep Amare out of foul trouble. I can't believe the guy I saw block 10 shots against the Jazz in his 2nd season became such a poor shot blocker.

 

[Irish]

When Amare go into shape this season, he dropped 25 pounds (or so they claim). But he needs to add muscle. Stength matters.

I have been projecting Jones to replace Amundson since he is a similar type of player but 15 pounds heavier and supposedly quite strong. He's also likely to be cheaper.

 

[SunsTzu]

It used to be that all serious draft prospects went to the combine in Chicago (?) and got measured there, as well as put through some basic tests for vertical leap, upper-body strength, etc. That was when I first knew that Chris Wilcox was going to be a bust: He measured very small and not all that strong. Stoudemire was part of the same draft class, and my memory was that his numbers looked solid but not eye-popping. (I could be wrong about that.) The prime physical specimen in that draft was Nene.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/

The thing that got Nene such a high ranking was his agility test but he has certainly never appeared to have the same change of direction ability as Amare on the court.

Really the only attributes I look at is wing span for wing players and reach for interior players. The bench press isn't a true test of strength since players with longer arms are at such a disadvantage and the speed tests don't always translate to the court.