"The Trade"

Zeem_Freeze

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All I know is that 3 GMs thought they picked a better CB than Melton. It looks like we got stuck with the leftovers. We should have taken our best CB at 35. In 3 years, we will know who is best.
we also know that Kool-aid and Cooper Dejean slipped very far from their projected draft spots. GMs didn't have them rated as high as people thought
 

Dback Jon

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So then why did almost every reputable draft ranking have all three of these players rated above Melton despite all of these factors?
1) Draft Rankings don't take in account fit for team
2) Even if you still have 5 guys with .005 points separating them, there is still a ranking. They are basically tied, but our OCD demands we rank them.

Tiered rankings are more logical for drafts
 

Fitz4Ever

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I think Cooper DeJean is going to be an all-pro somewhere in the secondary, but it may take a position switch a couple of years into his career. If we are more than 50/50 that Budda is not going to be re-signed...then Dejean would have been my pick because I think he could step right into Budda's role for the next 10 years.

If we think Budda is coming back, then Im fine with the trade as is.

The pick that is going to haunt us is Adams over Beebe or Haynes. I know some people are screaming that Beebe couldnt play in our system, but I disagree. He was the best LG in the country for 2 straight years. He is going to be a pro-bowler.
 

gmabel830

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1) Draft Rankings don't take in account fit for team
2) Even if you still have 5 guys with .005 points separating them, there is still a ranking. They are basically tied, but our OCD demands we rank them.

Tiered rankings are more logical for drafts
I wasn't suggesting any of the above weren't true, but what the OP I quoted said should have been huge red flags to all teams - had nothing to do with scheme fits, and the consensus ranking disparity between McKinstry/DeJean and Melton was not insignificant. If those other guys had such glaring red flags, why did most people feel they were better prospects?
 

Krangodnzr

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1) Draft Rankings don't take in account fit for team
2) Even if you still have 5 guys with .005 points separating them, there is still a ranking. They are basically tied, but our OCD demands we rank them.

Tiered rankings are more logical for drafts
McAfee show, they had Belichick walk through how teams build a draft board and he essentially said how it is done. Teams have tiers of players.

The Cardinals might have had Melton ranked higher than McKinstry. We don't know that, but it's fairly obvious they easily could have.
 
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D-Dogg

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You forgot to mention as a part of the trade with the Falcons that the Cardinals also sent their 6th round pick (#186) as well.

So RB Jase McClellan from Alabama will forever be tied to Max Melton. #keepthistraderelevant

:thumbup:
Yeah, correct. Good point and I meant to edit that in there but forgot. The 6th got us the third, then we used it to get another 6th. Monti was gassed up on the grill in there.
 

Dback Jon

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I wasn't suggesting any of the above weren't true, but what the OP I quoted said should have been huge red flags to all teams - had nothing to do with scheme fits, and the consensus ranking disparity between McKinstry/DeJean and Melton was not insignificant. If those other guys had such glaring red flags, why did most people feel they were better prospects?
Who is doing the consensus ranking?
And why did McKinstry and DeJean fall so far from the consensus rankings? Maybe the consensus isn't accurate
 
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D-Dogg

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The pick that is going to haunt us is Adams over Beebe or Haynes. I know some people are screaming that Beebe couldnt play in our system, but I disagree. He was the best LG in the country for 2 straight years. He is going to be a pro-bowler.
Yeah, that one remains one I still "don't see it" with. There were some "sleeper, great player, etc" comments on it. I think the RT last year out of position really threw his grading off. I only saw a handful of highlights of his pre draft (I did so many mocks) but not at guard. Apparently at the senior bowl he was at guard again. Still, I head scratch this one. Honestly, I was really expecting us to fill guard with Mason McCormick (who went to the steelers).
 

Krangodnzr

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So then why did almost every reputable draft ranking have all three of these players rated above Melton despite all of these factors?
Where a bunch of people not employed by NFL teams think guys should go isn't really relevant.

I find the mock draft exercise fun, but none of the mocks are ever remotely accurate.

The Panthers picked LB Trevin Wallace in round 3 and I routinely saw him picked in round 7. We're the Panthers wrong or the mock drafts? I'd wager the mock drafts were because Wallace is an elite athlete.

Elijah Jones was strangely ranked low, but he had a good workout and was one of the top five best CBs in college football last year.
 

oaken1

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We will likely never really know this. If true the trade is a winner bc they got him and netted more. If not true the balance of what the 3 verses who else they could’ve taken will tell the tale of good trade or bad.
Saw a pre draft video on Twitter entitled " max Melton calls his shot"
They asked him if he had to guess where does he think he will be drafted. He replied " Arizona, I have a pretty strong feeling I'm going to be an Arizona Cardinal "

That tells me conversations were had and Monti traded down knowing he valued Melton more than the teams that would be in front of him.
 

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Where a bunch of people not employed by NFL teams think guys should go isn't really relevant.

I find the mock draft exercise fun, but none of the mocks are ever remotely accurate.

The Panthers picked LB Trevin Wallace in round 3 and I routinely saw him picked in round 7. We're the Panthers wrong or the mock drafts? I'd wager the mock drafts were because Wallace is an elite athlete.

Elijah Jones was strangely ranked low, but he had a good workout and was one of the top five best CBs in college football last year.
Why? It is literally their job that they study all year long for. Not much different than any other commentary that we get in game, in talk shows etc.
 

Mulli

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Why? It is literally their job that they study all year long for. Not much different than any other commentary that we get in game, in talk shows etc.
I need to know if Trevin Wallace is an off-ball linebacker. Can he play ALL the positions? If so, maybe he should have been drafted in the 1st round. #swissarmyknife
 

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Why? It is literally their job that they study all year long for. Not much different than any other commentary that we get in game, in talk shows etc.
It’s not really. Their real job is to produce content and be a marketable personality who gets clicks/views/clout.

Most of the “experts” cited around here are full-time CrossFit trainers waiting for their big break. All they have to do is break down Tip’s game vs Kentucky in 28 minutes.
 

gmabel830

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I can’t remember if I posted here or in another thread, but NFL mock draft database has a consensus big board compiled from over 1,000 big boards and mock drafts. That’s the site I’ve been using to check on the relative value of our picks. I’m sure most of those 1,000 are people who would never have a chance in hell of being hired as an NFL scout, but that kind of aggregation does give a better view on relative value of the pick vs just consulting PFF (everyone’s favorite punching bag).
 

Dback Jon

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I can’t remember if I posted here or in another thread, but NFL mock draft database has a consensus big board compiled from over 1,000 big boards and mock drafts. That’s the site I’ve been using to check on the relative value of our picks. I’m sure most of those 1,000 are people who would never have a chance in hell of being hired as an NFL scout, but that kind of aggregation does give a better view on relative value of the pick vs just consulting PFF (everyone’s favorite punching bag).
Or is it just mass cloning of "Conventional Wisdom"?
Especially when you get further and further down the draft board.
 

Krangodnzr

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Why? It is literally their job that they study all year long for. Not much different than any other commentary that we get in game, in talk shows etc.
Because what matters is what NFL scouts think. There is actual training and skill that goes along with it. What the Cardinals want from a corner back could vary wildly from what the Saints want.

That nuance matters. That's why I didn't think the Cardinals would want Beebe, and they didn't. Beebe isn't good on the move and the Cardinals want OL that move real well.

So a lineman that Mel Kipers thinks is a 5th round guy could be a 3rd round guy for the Cardinals. Mel doesn't factor that in so it's silly to grade players based off of a rubric created by non-NFL people.
 

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Because what matters is what NFL scouts think. There is actual training and skill that goes along with it. What the Cardinals want from a corner back could vary wildly from what the Saints want.

That nuance matters. That's why I didn't think the Cardinals would want Beebe, and they didn't. Beebe isn't good on the move and the Cardinals want OL that move real well.

So a lineman that Mel Kipers thinks is a 5th round guy could be a 3rd round guy for the Cardinals. Mel doesn't factor that in so it's silly to grade players based off of a rubric created by non-NFL people.

Generally, MEL grades skills, not fit, and has no problem with player 'x' being a better answer for team, 'y'.
 

CT CARDSFAN

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I believe that the Cardinals got 2 of the best CBs and the best free safety in this draft. Also the best LG that fits best in their zone blocking scheme. I hope that Xavier Thomas can play up to his potential as a pass rusher and move Zaven Collins back to his natural position MLB and Kyzer White to WLB, where he thrived in Philly.
 

football karma

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Where a bunch of people not employed by NFL teams think guys should go isn't really relevant.
Daniel Jermiah (worked in the Ravens FO) said that, generally, all 32 teams have pretty much the same players in their top 50 -- with variations on the exact order

after that -- lots of variation. One teams #70 player might be another teams #200 player.
 

Krangodnzr

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Generally, MEL grades skills, not fit, and has no problem with player 'x' being a better answer for team, 'y'.
But how does Elijah Jones, who runs fast, jumps out of the gym AND was one of the best CBs in college football based on counting stats end up so low in his rankings?
 

GatorAZ

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I would’ve been fine with Melton at 35 and that’s not a homer take because I think we flushed a 3rd round pick down the toilet. Cooper DeJean was a polarizing prospect but a versatile DB like him is a good fit in Philly were they already drafted a true corner.
 

GimmedaBall

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The pick that is going to haunt us is Adams over Beebe or Haynes.
I tend to agree with you on the regrets with Cooper DeJean and Adams over Beebe. We made our pick of who to go to the prom with and must live with the results.

Here's Adams eval of NFL.com:

Here's Beebe:

Beebe is getting critiqued for having short arms. Last I checked, they ended at his fingers. It looks as if Adams got the nod based on his run blocking and ability to get to the next level. Cards are looking to really build that run OL and can pair him with his TE bud from Illinois.
 
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