"The Trade"

D-Dogg

A Whole New World
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Posts
44,845
Reaction score
580
Location
In The End Zone
There is a bit of discussion about the trade down in the second round, where we dropped 8 spots and grabbed another 3rd rounder (79). We then traded back on that third rounder (to 82) and added a 6th (191).

On the board was KoolAid, Cooper, JPJ, and Lassiter.

To evaluate this trade, IMO, you can't just look at the board and names in a vacuum. In theory, we flipped 35 for 43, 82, and 191. We moved back 8 spots and grabbed two more picks.

First, the pick at 43. MadMax seems like he's custom fit for what JG wants to do. We can argue the day is long whether he is better than the other 3 CB (CB/Safety) who went before him. But it does seem the FO was comfortable moving back and grabbing him.

At 82 we pick up the absolute best blocking TE in the draft in Tip Reisman. Was it too early? Maybe. Is he a gamer? Yes, and scouts and media love the pick. He will start in 12 package, block his ass off, and maybe catch a few balls. Plus, he lets TM run the Kelce role as basically a dedicated WR.

At 191, we add Tejhaun Palmer, a big body WR that gives depth and speed, especially with Wilson having injury history. A bit of a project, but at 191 he's a pretty solid pick.

So, end of the day, we "lose out" on a few name recognition CB (most with injury or fit issues) and grab a guy who is a solid cover CB, plus the best blocking TE and an intriguing depth WR. For 8 spots.

Do you really think any of the following statements are not true?

Max + Tip + Palmer > Cooper
Max + Tip + Palmer > Kool-aid
Max + Tip + Palmer > Lassiter
Max + Tip + Palmer > JPJ

Only the latter do I personally entertain, but CB was such a HUGE need for us I still think it's also true.

This trade, IMO, was astute, and made us a whole lot better than sticking and picking (where they very well may have still selected Max, anyway).

Thoughts?
 

Garthshort

ASFN Addict
Joined
Aug 11, 2002
Posts
9,204
Reaction score
5,234
Location
Scarsdale, NY
D-Dog, nice breakdown of the trade and Brit's post let's us know that the answer will come in TIME. As a fan with no real knowledge of how good the guys we passed on are, I was hoping for Cooper or Kool Aid, but I now feel way better about Mad Max. And going into the Draft I felt good about Monti, and came out of it feeling even better.
 

CardNots

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Sep 12, 2002
Posts
4,026
Reaction score
3,666
Location
Jenks, Oklahoma
D-Dog, nice breakdown of the trade and Brit's post let's us know that the answer will come in TIME. As a fan with no real knowledge of how good the guys we passed on are, I was hoping for Cooper or Kool Aid, but I now feel way better about Mad Max. And going into the Draft I felt good about Monti, and came out of it feeling even better.
Summed up my feelings perfectly!
 

GimmedaBall

Hall of Famer
Joined
Dec 2, 2013
Posts
1,626
Reaction score
1,110
Like your analysis D-Dogg on why the trade downs were good. Here's my take.

My first reaction to the trade-downs: Are we giving away our advantage earned with our poor record to have the pick of the better prospects? The whole parity concept is based on giving the poor teams an earlier choice to improve their team.

I wanted the Cards to use their accumulation of picks to move up in either the 1st or 2nd and get two higher-rated CBs to at least complete that position group going forward. My equations would have been:

Is Q. Mitchell CB taken at 22 by the Eagles > our picks surrendered in a trade?

Is Terrion Arnold CB taken at 24 by the Lions > our picks surrendered in a trade?

I haven't worked out the point values needed to make those trades but I would have considered moving 2025 assets to get those two guys. I can't remember the last time we had CB1a and CB1b on the field at the same time. We could have solidified our DB room for years to come with those two.

Instead, we accumulate lower-round picks and add a handful of players. Appreciate that once into the 2nd round, we were already into 'might become a starter territory.'

Of course, the Cards FO has much greater insight into player eval than I do. They got all the background, made the interviews, and anticipated how the guys they wanted fit the scheme. But also realize that about 20% of the guys in the league starred as UDFA. So, even the high-powered analysis can fail.

One key thing I can see to justify the repeated trade-downs is the need to reload the ST personnel to accommodate the new kick-off rule. That single ST play has the potential to alter field position and also be a one-play scoring drive. I believe it was Melton who stated that he was game to play ST and considered it a 'football play.' Now, if that applies to the other guys taken with our trade-downs, we may have something. Let's see how many stick on the 53 man roster and show up on kick-offs.

I would still rather have CBs Mitchell and Arnold over the accumulated lower-round picks. LOL.
 

football karma

Happy in the pretense of knowledge
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Posts
14,957
Reaction score
13,401
when the actual draft happens, we see how the NFL values certain prospects very differently than media

I dont think its a stretch to think that if the media got Cooper DeJean's pre draft ranking wrong by 20 spots, maybe it got Max Melton's ranking wrong by 20 spots
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
61,214
Reaction score
53,628
Location
SoCal
There is a bit of discussion about the trade down in the second round, where we dropped 8 spots and grabbed another 3rd rounder (79). We then traded back on that third rounder (to 82) and added a 6th (191).

On the board was KoolAid, Cooper, JPJ, and Lassiter.

To evaluate this trade, IMO, you can't just look at the board and names in a vacuum. In theory, we flipped 35 for 43, 82, and 191. We moved back 8 spots and grabbed two more picks.

First, the pick at 43. MadMax seems like he's custom fit for what JG wants to do. We can argue the day is long whether he is better than the other 3 CB (CB/Safety) who went before him. But it does seem the FO was comfortable moving back and grabbing him.

At 82 we pick up the absolute best blocking TE in the draft in Tip Reisman. Was it too early? Maybe. Is he a gamer? Yes, and scouts and media love the pick. He will start in 12 package, block his ass off, and maybe catch a few balls. Plus, he lets TM run the Kelce role as basically a dedicated WR.

At 191, we add Tejhaun Palmer, a big body WR that gives depth and speed, especially with Wilson having injury history. A bit of a project, but at 191 he's a pretty solid pick.

So, end of the day, we "lose out" on a few name recognition CB (most with injury or fit issues) and grab a guy who is a solid cover CB, plus the best blocking TE and an intriguing depth WR. For 8 spots.

Do you really think any of the following statements are not true?

Max + Tip + Palmer > Cooper
Max + Tip + Palmer > Kool-aid
Max + Tip + Palmer > Lassiter
Max + Tip + Palmer > JPJ

Only the latter do I personally entertain, but CB was such a HUGE need for us I still think it's also true.

This trade, IMO, was astute, and made us a whole lot better than sticking and picking (where they very well may have still selected Max, anyway).

Thoughts?
Glad you memorialized this. It’s the only true way to measure whether it ultimates nets as a good deal or not. Will be interesting to see it play out.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
61,214
Reaction score
53,628
Location
SoCal
I think they wanted Max over the other CB’s and were able to pick him and get more picks
We will likely never really know this. If true the trade is a winner bc they got him and netted more. If not true the balance of what the 3 verses who else they could’ve taken will tell the tale of good trade or bad.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
61,214
Reaction score
53,628
Location
SoCal
If you listen to the post day two presser, Monti absolutely intimated that.

Max Melton is an absolute dog. It was cool to see what Saban thought about him.
Meh every gm says that about every trade back pick. Could be true could be bs. If someone with fore knowledge and nothing to gain confirmed it I’d buy it.
 

Krangodnzr

Captain of Team Murray
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
35,674
Reaction score
32,699
Location
Orange County, CA
Meh every gm says that about every trade back pick. Could be true could be bs. If someone with fore knowledge and nothing to gain confirmed it I’d buy it.
I do.

McKinstry had a Jones fracture. Those are notoriously bad fractures because they often break again. It's one of the reasons Johnny Newton fell as well.

DeJean has significant question marks about whether he can play CB because he has really stiff hips. Not a lot of guys with stuff hips end up being good corners. I probably would have gambled on DeJean but I can see why NFL people wouldn't.

And Lassiter is SLOW. I can't remember which NFL player basically said that a wide receiver can be slower than average because he can run good routes and get open, but a slow corner back has big make up speed issues.

Does Melton have any of these question marks?
 
OP
OP
D-Dogg

D-Dogg

A Whole New World
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Posts
44,845
Reaction score
580
Location
In The End Zone
I do.

McKinstry had a Jones fracture. Those are notoriously bad fractures because they often break again. It's one of the reasons Johnny Newton fell as well.

DeJean has significant question marks about whether he can play CB because he has really stiff hips. Not a lot of guys with stuff hips end up being good corners. I probably would have gambled on DeJean but I can see why NFL people wouldn't.

And Lassiter is SLOW. I can't remember which NFL player basically said that a wide receiver can be slower than average because he can run good routes and get open, but a slow corner back has big make up speed issues.

Does Melton have any of these question marks?
Wasn't it Melton who said he "had a feeling" he'd be a Cardinal before the draft?
 

football karma

Happy in the pretense of knowledge
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Posts
14,957
Reaction score
13,401
Meh every gm says that about every trade back pick. Could be true could be bs. If someone with fore knowledge and nothing to gain confirmed it I’d buy it.
I thought what Monti said was interesting:

"If you have 5 players at a spot that you like, and you move down 8 spots, you feel pretty good about your chances"
 

MadCardDisease

Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
20,063
Reaction score
12,570
Location
Chandler, Az
There is a bit of discussion about the trade down in the second round, where we dropped 8 spots and grabbed another 3rd rounder (79). We then traded back on that third rounder (to 82) and added a 6th (191).



Thoughts?

You forgot to mention as a part of the trade with the Falcons that the Cardinals also sent their 6th round pick (#186) as well.

So RB Jase McClellan from Alabama will forever be tied to Max Melton. #keepthistraderelevant

:thumbup:
 

MadCardDisease

Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
20,063
Reaction score
12,570
Location
Chandler, Az
Meh every gm says that about every trade back pick. Could be true could be bs. If someone with fore knowledge and nothing to gain confirmed it I’d buy it.

I mentioned this before the start of Day 2 but I felt there was a large group of players who had very similar grades and that trading back would be the best option.

Here is what Monti said about the trade:
"We had offers (at 35) to drop back a couple spots, we had offers to drop back a lot more than we did, and really it's a numbers game at that point," Ossenfort said. "There was a group of players we were comfortable picking at 35, and we count numbers, how far can we get back? If it's a situation where we like five players and we drop eight spots, chances are one of those guys is going to make it."
 

gmabel830

It's football season!!
Joined
May 8, 2011
Posts
12,656
Reaction score
7,417
Location
Gilbert, Arizona
I do.

McKinstry had a Jones fracture. Those are notoriously bad fractures because they often break again. It's one of the reasons Johnny Newton fell as well.

DeJean has significant question marks about whether he can play CB because he has really stiff hips. Not a lot of guys with stuff hips end up being good corners. I probably would have gambled on DeJean but I can see why NFL people wouldn't.

And Lassiter is SLOW. I can't remember which NFL player basically said that a wide receiver can be slower than average because he can run good routes and get open, but a slow corner back has big make up speed issues.

Does Melton have any of these question marks?
So then why did almost every reputable draft ranking have all three of these players rated above Melton despite all of these factors?
 
  • Like
Reactions: PJ1
Top