The Ayton Plan

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I still say no. Jokic would fundamentally change how this team is. We run. We oop. The team is predicated on athleticism. That all changes with a lumbering center like Jokic. Watch him run up the court. He isn't fast. He isn't very athletic. He is as skilled as they come around the rim but he would clog up the middle. Our mid-range would evaporate because Jokic would always be down there. IMO which is one of the Suns strengths. GOD please no.

Hmm I think you’re mistaken. Ayton never leads the break. He’s never even a trailer on the break. He’s typically the last guy down the floor. Know what jokic does better than Ayton? Trigger the break and make fantastic long passes to our wings. He’s also a better shooter from range than Ayton. It’s kinda like you don’t even know who jokic is.

 

[Covert Rain]

Hmm I think you’re mistaken. Ayton never leads the break. He’s never even a trailer on the break. He’s typically the last guy down the floor. Know what jokic does better than Ayton? Trigger the break and make fantastic long passes to our wings. He’s also a better shooter from range than Ayton. It’s kinda like you don’t even know who jokic is.

I never said anything about Ayton leading a break. I am talking about getting down court. Ayton doesn't have to lead the break. He is faster than Joker. You know what Joker will never be? Athletic. We get so many easy buckets out Ayton's raw athleticism. Joker isn't getting very many ally oppos either. He is big body and does things around the basket very well out of sheer size. He has more of a nasty streak. I know exactly who Joker is.

Having said that? Joker isn't going to learn athleticism and get faster. Ayton is getting better at his shot at his shot all the time. The upside is much bigger for Ayton. If he becomes more of a consistent scorer? There is no doubt who I would rather have in this system.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I never said anything about Ayton leading a break. I am talking about getting down court. Ayton doesn't have to lead the break. He is faster than Joker. You know what Joker will never be? Athletic. We get so many easy buckets out Ayton's raw athleticism. Joker isn't getting very many ally oppos either. He is big body and does things around the basket very well out of sheer size. He has more of a nasty streak. I know exactly who Joker is.

Having said that? Joker isn't going to learn athleticism and get faster. Ayton is getting better at his shot at his shot all the time. The upside is much bigger for Ayton. If he becomes more of a consistent scorer? There is no doubt who I would rather have in this system.

I’ve already said I wouldn’t trade Ayton for jokic for our situation but you’re selling jokic incredibly short. You were claiming the trade off would hurt our ability to run. It wouldn’t. In fact it’s likely the opposite.

And Ayton doesn’t really have a nasty streak. Every once in awhile he dinks when they are free dunks. He will more often shy away from contact than dunk on anyone. Hence his paltry FTA/game. And the lost easy baskets on allez-oops is likely made up by easy buckets gotten from amazing passes from jokic. The real disparity is on the defensive end where Ayton has jokic beat by some distance.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I never said anything about Ayton leading a break. I am talking about getting down court. Ayton doesn't have to lead the break. He is faster than Joker. You know what Joker will never be? Athletic. We get so many easy buckets out Ayton's raw athleticism. Joker isn't getting very many ally oppos either. He is big body and does things around the basket very well out of sheer size. He has more of a nasty streak. I know exactly who Joker is.

Having said that? Joker isn't going to learn athleticism and get faster. Ayton is getting better at his shot at his shot all the time. The upside is much bigger for Ayton. If he becomes more of a consistent scorer? There is no doubt who I would rather have in this system.

There isn't a chance our offense wouldn't be significantly better with Jokic. Our defense on the other hand wouldn't be nearly as potent. Overall the team would probably be better with Jokic over Ayton.

 

[Covert Rain]

I’ve already said I wouldn’t trade Ayton for jokic for our situation but you’re selling jokic incredibly short. You were claiming the trade off would hurt our ability to run. It wouldn’t. In fact it’s likely the opposite.

And Ayton doesn’t really have a nasty streak. Every once in awhile he dinks when they are free dunks. He will more often shy away from contact than dunk on anyone. Hence his paltry FTA/game. And the lost easy baskets on allez-oops is likely made up by easy buckets gotten from amazing passes from jokic. The real disparity is on the defensive end where Ayton has jokic beat by some distance.

I am not selling him short. I am saying Ayton is a better fit for how this team plays.

I am saying Joker initiates fast breaks by securing the rebound and quickly getting it to a player who can run. It’s not because he is athletic or quick. The Suns will have 5 guys down the floor before Denver. It’s what happened when we played them the last couple times during the season.

Again, I am not saying the Suns couldn’t build a team that compliments Joker. I am saying it’s not this team or this system. This team relies on athletic play.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I am not selling him short. I am saying Ayton is a better fit for how this team plays.

I am saying Joker initiates fast breaks by securing the rebound and quickly getting it to a player who can run. It’s not because he is athletic or quick. The Suns will have 5 guys down the floor before Denver. It’s what happened when we played them the last couple times during the season.

Again, I am not saying the Suns couldn’t build a team that compliments Joker. I am saying it’s not this team or this system. This team relies on athletic play.

I disagree, this team relies on intelligence, defense, confidence and incredible teamwork. I don’t think this team is one of the more athletic teams in the league.

 

[Hoop Head]

This team doesn't really run. That's not Chris Paul's style. Almost every game thread last season had someone clamoring for Paul to push the pace. The reason you don't see it now is we've all become used to Paul and know he's not going to run but he doesn't need to find an open shooter.

This idea that Jokic would slow us down is laughable since our pace isn't fast to having with. I'd imagine Denver is faster paced than we are and if they aren't the difference is negligible.

 

[Covert Rain]

I disagree, this team relies on intelligence, defense, confidence and incredible teamwork. I don’t think this team is one of the more athletic teams in the league.

This team is one of the best slashing teams in the NBA. We are one of the best pick and roll teams. You don’t accomplish that without fast and agile players.

Joker would slow us down in so many ways and clog up the middle for Paul and Booker’s mid-range bread and butter.

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This team is one of the best slashing teams in the NBA. We are one of the best pick and roll teams. You don’t accomplish that without fast and agile players.

Joker would slow us down in so many ways and clog up the middle for Paul and Booker’s mid-range bread and butter.

We will have to agree to disagree.

I dont think you understand why those work. It’s meant to create separate. It’s typically used when the individuals aren’t capable of creating separation on their own due to lesser athleticism or skills. The biggest athlete (think Jordan, Kobe, kj, etc) tend not to use it highly bc they were capable of breaking down a player individually. Would they use picks? Yes. But just to get superior matchups. They were more often pick and clear outs instead of pick and rolls. The greatest users of the pick and roll, Stockton and Malone weren’t what we’d consider top level athletes. The pick and roll is based on timing and having an individual who excels at making immediate reads and pinpoint passes. It’s about basketball IQ more than athleticism.

Here’s the athleticism on the team:

Ayton is close to top level, particularly for his size. But he doesn’t maximize and use his full athleticism.

Javale may be next for ability to go all the way up. He’s gangly, but for a center he’s pretty athletic.

Bridges is likely next, but he’s more sneaky athletic. He’s not top level.

Book and cam Johnson are close. Book is a measurement top athlete, but it doesn’t fully translate to the court. Cam is more athletic than any of us believed he would be, but I don’t think either rates in the top 20 athleticism at their position - and kind you I mean pure athleticism as in run, jump, balance, lateral quickness. I think everyone knows Booker is a superior player to Zach Lavine but no one would say book is more athletic than him.

Craig is a good athlete in terms of leaping, but has little lateral quickness as a wing.

And the rest of our team are adequate athletically.

A team like the timberwolves is extremely athletic. The pels are extremely athletic. I’d say we are average to maybe a skosh above average.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This team is one of the best slashing teams in the NBA. We are one of the best pick and roll teams. You don’t accomplish that without fast and agile players.

Joker would slow us down in so many ways and clog up the middle for Paul and Booker’s mid-range bread and butter.

We will have to agree to disagree.

And how jokic, a dude with more range than Ayton, would clog up the midrange more than Ayton is a curious position. It seems like you think jokic is an unskilled throw back post dinosaur.

 

[Covert Rain]

And how jokic, a dude with more range than Ayton, would clog up the midrange more than Ayton is a curious position. It seems like you think jokic is an unskilled throw back post dinosaur.

Look at his shot chart. Almost 70% of the shots he takes is around the basket. That is where he is MOST effective. If he is always there how exactly does that open up the mid-range? You think that is going to change? It isn't. He is down there almost 20% above the league average. That's his strength. That's his game. This offense isn't built around Ayton. Ayton is a complimentary scorer where we utilize him in limited sets. The offense runs through Paul and Booker getting to the mid-range. That's why Ayton's game fits what we do. He is not parked there for 70% of his shots. Most of his inside shots come from pick and rolls.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Look at his shot chart. Almost 70% of the shots he takes is around the basket. That is where he is MOST effective. If he is always there how exactly does that open up the mid-range? You think that is going to change? It isn't. He is down there almost 20% above the league average. That's his strength.

I’m going to let you guess whose shot chart is whose . . .

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[Covert Rain]

I’m going to let you guess whose shot chart is whose . . .

Yes. One of those guys makes a living making his own shot, backing down methodically. One of those guys is assisted more on his shots and lives on the pick and roll.

Guess who that is? Joker camps down low. Something EVERYBODY constantly yells that want to see Ayton do more of. Post up. The way those guys score is not remotely similar.
Joker is a great center, but his game is completely different and bad fit for this team as built. Again, you are acting like I am saying he is unskilled and not a good center. I have never said that. I am saying Ayton's game is more complimentary to how this team is built and the system we run. If we get Joker? The system has to change.

How is that a negative take on Joker?

 

[Mainstreet]

really? you're laughing your *ss off?
that's a bit stupido, Finito considering that i said it was a "minor concern" and "confidence is good, but he (and his agent) need to accept that there are better centers in the league and that there are things he needs to improve."

regarding some of the other analysts,
Ayton said he IS "the best" not that he "would be the best" and the last time i checked:
Jokic and Embiid were top picks for MVP and Ayton is probably just a top 20 player for the season and hasn't even been an All-Star yet

i said he should get the max a few weeks back in this thread, but that's besides the point. to say he's the best doesn't jive with anyones reality, including your own,so it's not the most encouraging position to take when it's obvious there are things he needs to work on and management wants him to be more consistent and motivated TO BE the best instead of assume he's already there.

yes, it is refreshing to hear great players acknowledge another player as the best. and the bonus is that some superstar won't be driven to make you eat your words next time they play you.

what's not refreshing is your witless sarcasm. you're the worst
finito

The problem I see, you do the same things as well. Insults only breed more insults.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yes. One of those guys makes a living making his own shot, backing down methodically. One of those guys is assisted more on his shots and lives on the pick and roll.

Guess who that is? Joker camps down low. Something EVERYBODY constantly yells that want to see Ayton do more of. Post up. The way those guys score is not remotely similar.
Joker is a great center, but his game is completely different and bad fit for this team as built. Again, you are acting like I am saying he is unskilled and not a good center. I have never said that. I am saying Ayton's game is more complimentary to how this team is built and the system we run. If we get Joker? The system has to change.

How is that a negative take on Joker?

Forget it. You and I just aren’t going to see eye-to-eye on this.

 

[Ronin]

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[Dr. Jones]

I have stopped posting in this thread mainly because the big man has proven so much to me over the past two playoff seasons. He's still a lazy ass from time to time but so was Shaq, so was Dwight, and so are most of the big men in the league the last 20 plus years or so.

DA has proven himself to me now and will be getting a good amount of money this offseason. James Jones played this perfectly IMO.

 

[Mainstreet]

Ayton played a huge role in that late game steal by Bridges when Deandre and Mikal trapped a Pelicans player on the sideline.

Bridges stole the ball and took it in for a dunk.

Ayton does a lot more than score and rebound. He plays defense too.

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[Mainstreet]

I could watch the above play all day long.

That's Suns defense right there and Mikal Bridges streaking down the court for the dunk.

 

[95pro]

Ayton played a huge role in that late came steal by Bridges when Deandre and Mikal trapped a Pelicans player on the sideline.

Bridges stole the ball and took it in for a dunk.

Ayton does a lot more than score and rebound. He plays defense too.

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Jackhammer reminds me of The Heartbreak Kid

 

[Mainstreet]

Jackhammer reminds me of The Heartbreak Kid

Didn't Al McCoy used to use the phrase "Heartbreak Hotel?"

I haven't had a chance to listen to him for years so I'm not sure if he still uses it.

 

[AZ Native]

I could watch the above play all day long.

That's Suns defense right there and Mikal Bridges streaking down the court for the dunk.

Was that Drew Stanton running with the leg kick?

 

[Hoop Head]

Didn't Al McCoy used to use the phrase "Heartbreak Hotel?"

I haven't had a chance to listen to him for years so I'm not sure if he still uses it.

You should try tuning into the radio broadcast if you don't like the national team covering the game. There's usually a short delay one way or the other but it's usually not too bad. He's a joy to listen to, even if you only catch a quarter or two.

It's best when it's a blowout, I think. I usually lose interest and stop watching but being able to listen to Al call the remainder keeps me aware of what's happening in case it gets close again. He also seems a bit looser when it's garbage time and will tell some amusing anecdotes.

 

[Mainstreet]

You should try tuning into the radio broadcast if you don't like the national team covering the game. There's usually a short delay one way or the other but it's usually not too bad. He's a joy to listen to, even if you only catch a quarter or two.

It's best when it's a blowout, I think. I usually lose interest and stop watching but being able to listen to Al call the remainder keeps me aware of what's happening in case it gets close again. He also seems a bit looser when it's garbage time and will tell some amusing anecdotes.

I might just do. Luckily until round 2, I've been watching local coverage on Bally Sports Arizona.

 

[Ronin]

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