The 2018-2019 Around the NBA thread

[AzStevenCal]

We were a playoff contender, I'd say not just a contender but a near lock. What killed that team was Goran's selfishness. His fans rave about his play when Bledsoe was out in '14, but as far as winning went it was their worst stretch.

He'd have been incredible as the next Manu, but Goran was more interested in his own stats and usage rate.

I agree. Plus it was the second time he screwed us, both times intentionally. And yet so many here would jump to bring him back. Goran isn't a bad guy, I suspect if we had access to his inner group we'd realize quitting on us the first time and then demanding a trade were thoughts put into his head by someone in his management group. Regardless, for me, like Bledsoe, he has burned his Phoenix bridges.

 

[Mainstreet]

I agree. Plus it was the second time he screwed us, both times intentionally. And yet so many here would jump to bring him back. Goran isn't a bad guy, I suspect if we had access to his inner group we'd realize quitting on us the first time and then demanding a trade were thoughts put into his head by someone in his management group. Regardless, for me, like Bledsoe, he has burned his Phoenix bridges.

As I recall, the Suns gave up on Dragic in the trade for Aaron Brooks. They even threw in a first round draft pick for good measure. It was a very poor trade looking back. This was in the Lon Babby era.

 

[AzStevenCal]

As I recall, the Suns gave up on Dragic in the trade for Aaron Brooks. They even threw in a first round draft pick for good measure. It was a very poor trade looking back. This was in the Lon Babby era.

No, Dragic gave up on us first. Goran threw the season because re-signing Steve made it clear that Nash wasn't going to retire or take a back seat and he wanted his chance to shine. He'd showed well in the playoffs the year before and we all expected him to take the next step. Instead, he played without focus or effort and effectively forced us to go on a mid-season search for a basketball player, something he had stopped being.

 

[Mainstreet]

No, Dragic gave up on us first. Goran threw the season because re-signing Steve made it clear that Nash wasn't going to retire or take a back seat and he wanted his chance to shine. He'd showed well in the playoffs the year before and we all expected him to take the next step. Instead, he played without focus or effort and effectively forced us to go on a mid-season search for a basketball player, something he had stopped being.

I remember it more as the Suns gave up on Dragic. Certainly his play did not meet expectations but this can happen with a young player. His play only really took off when he returned to the Suns (from the Rockets) as an unrestricted free agent in the 2012-13 season.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I remember it more as the Suns gave up on Dragic. Certainly his play did not meet expectations but this can happen with a young player. His play only really took off when he returned to the Suns (from the Rockets) as an unrestricted free agent in the 2012-13 season.

I'd challenge your memory. Compared to how he played for us, he took off the moment he stepped on the court in Houston. Find any one of the games he played for us prior to that trade and you'll see he was clearly not giving full effort. Some of us (me, for example) made excuses for him. I kept insisting that he was just exhausted from him playing year round ball. But it became clear that we apologists were wrong as soon as he was traded.

I'm not positive on this part but maybe someone else will remember it better. IIRC he acknowledged the reason for his uninspired play when he returned as a free agent.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'd challenge your memory. Compared to how he played for us, he took off the moment he stepped on the court in Houston. Find any one of the games he played for us prior to that trade and you'll see he was clearly not giving full effort. Some of us (me, for example) made excuses for him. I kept insisting that he was just exhausted from him playing year round ball. But it became clear that we apologists were wrong as soon as he was traded.

I'm not positive on this part but maybe someone else will remember it better. I think he even acknowledged the reason for his uninspired play when he came back to us.

I don't remember it the same as you as already noted.

When Dragic was traded to Houston, his first partial season was not that great in Houston. He played about the same as he did in Phoenix. Dragic did play much better the second season with the Rockets, however, his career really took off when he returned to the Suns.

I don't remember Dragic not having put forth an effort his first time with the Suns. Sure, maybe his play was disappointing but he was still developing as a player.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dragigo01.html

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't remember Dragic not having put forth an effort his first time with the Suns. Sure, maybe his play was disappointing but he was still developing as a player.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dragigo01.html

I'm too lazy to search old threads but as I recall, he started the season strong. We were all excited that he was building upon his success against the Spurs. There was even talk that we might be watching the next great Suns PG, some were suggesting he could be even better than Nash. I can't remember when Steve signed his extension but sometime in December or so, Goran just stopped giving effort. I'm pretty sure we have threads to support this, maybe I'll get the energy some time to do some research.

 

[Phrazbit]

Regardless, in 2015 he shoved the knife in deep. He was dogging it while on our team, told the team what he wanted them to do to make him happy, they did exactly as he asked, he shanked them anyway and did it so late in the process that it essentially detonated the entire season.

He's a good shooter and flat out elite on the break. but he's a putrid defender, he doesn't try unless the ball is in his hands and he isn't much a facilitator either.

If we traded for him I expect he'd be upset with how much the ball is in Booker's hands, he'd have his worst season in years then in the offseason he'd say he wants out... while picking up his player option.

Goran is a snake... with a kind childish face that fools people.

 

[SirStefan32]

It is amazing how people can see the same thing and interpret it differently.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It is amazing how people can see the same thing and interpret it differently.

Sure but some of this is fact. For example, we were playing great basketball (according to our record) and our 3 headed guard situation was the reason (according to stats). Then, Dragic, in an interview, talked about how much he was sacrificing so the team could win. Then, there was a locker room scuffle between IT and Dragic which was broken up by the twins. All facts.

Not facts, but rumored or speculated, is that Dragic was pissed that Eric Bledsoe didn't take his side and it's also just speculation that IT started the fight because he was pissed about Dragic claiming that he was the one that sacrificed. I believe both are true but who knows for sure.

I did watch the Goran interview when it happened. IMO, he didn't come across as he intended to. It came across as whiny but I think that was largely a language issue. It's quite possible he was just trying to be supportive of the team concept but apparently Thomas took it differently.

We'll probably never know exactly how the fight started but my money is on IT as the instigator. Goran screwed us after that (which may or may not have been agent/wife driven) but that's more speculation. And, again speculation, but I've always thought that we traded Thomas away in large part because of his role as an instigator in that fight.

I don't think Goran is evil but between his various agents (Euro and local) along with his brand new wife, he found himself listening to people with very specific agendas. In the end, it's hard to blame a player for being self serving. But as a fan, it's hard to support them when their self serving behavior is destructive to the team. Anyway, I don't hate McDyess either but I view them in the same unfavorable light.

 

[Mainstreet]

Sure but some of this is fact. For example, we were playing great basketball (according to our record) and our 3 headed guard situation was the reason (according to stats). Then, Dragic, in an interview, talked about how much he was sacrificing so the team could win. Then, there was a locker room scuffle between IT and Dragic which was broken up by the twins. All facts.

Not facts, but rumored or speculated, is that Dragic was pissed that Eric Bledsoe didn't take his side and it's also just speculation that IT started the fight because he was pissed about Dragic claiming that he was the one that sacrificed. I believe both are true but who knows for sure.

I did watch the Goran interview when it happened. IMO, he didn't come across as he intended to. It came across as whiny but I think that was largely a language issue. It's quite possible he was just trying to be supportive of the team concept but apparently Thomas took it differently.

We'll probably never know exactly how the fight started but my money is on IT as the instigator. Goran screwed us after that (which may or may not have been agent/wife driven) but that's more speculation. And, again speculation, but I've always thought that we traded Thomas away in large part because of his role as an instigator in that fight.

I don't think Goran is evil but between his various agents (Euro and local) along with his brand new wife, he found himself listening to people with very specific agendas. In the end, it's hard to blame a player for being self serving. But as a fan, it's hard to support them when their self serving behavior is destructive to the team. Anyway, I don't hate McDyess either but I view them in the same unfavorable light.

The thing is, our discussion was centered around the first time Dragic was with the Suns... not 2015.

Everyone was upset the way Dragic left the Suns the second time.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The thing is, our discussion was centered around the first time Dragic was with the Suns... not 2015.

Everyone was upset the way Dragic left the Suns the second time.

Yeah, I might have misunderstood him but I thought Stephan was primarily responding to Phrazbit's post so I limited my response to the 2015 debacle.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yeah, I might have misunderstood him but I thought Stephan was primarily responding to Phrazbit's post so I limited my response to the 2015 debacle.

What we all need is a real live game to talk about. I guess I just wanted to clarify my position.

 

[Mainstreet]

Lauri Marrkkanen will be out 6-8 weeks with an elbow injury.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24826659/bulls-lauri-markkanen-6-8-weeks-elbow-injury

 

[Finito]

Lauri Marrkkanen will be out 6-8 weeks with an elbow injury.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24826659/bulls-lauri-markkanen-6-8-weeks-elbow-injury

That sucks I think this is going to be a big year for him he's obviously been hitting the gym and putting in work

 

[Mainstreet]

That sucks I think this is going to be a big year for him he's obviously been hitting the gym and putting in work

It's a shame no doubt. IMO, he is a young star on the rise.

 

[SirStefan32]

Yeah, I might have misunderstood him but I thought Stephan was primarily responding to Phrazbit's post so I limited my response to the 2015 debacle.

You are correct. I was referring to the second time around. He definitely did nothing wrong the first time around, so I wasn't even commenting on that. Dragic made an All-NBA third team, and the next season, McD and Hornacek demoted him to the third option who stands in the corner and has to guard small forwards, and then "broke multiple promises" as Dragic put it. Sure, he could have handled it better as well, but I place the blame on McD and not Dragic or IT.

 

[Phrazbit]

You are correct. I was referring to the second time around. He definitely did nothing wrong the first time around, so I wasn't even commenting on that. Dragic made an All-NBA third team, and the next season, McD and Hornacek demoted him to the third option who stands in the corner and has to guard small forwards, and then "broke multiple promises" as Dragic put it. Sure, he could have handled it better as well, but I place the blame on McD and not Dragic or IT.

Dragic demoted himself to that. Early in the year the team was flying and he was moving without the ball, as the season went on he got pouty and basically didn't do anything unless he had the ball in his hands.

Where I really fault Dragic is that the team asked what they could do to fix the relationship, they did it, then he said "nah"... if he'd just been uphappy and wanted out, period, then okay, I can handle that, if he'd stayed after the team addressed his issues... I can handle that. What makes me really think low of Dragic is that they appeased him, in grand fassion, an overhaul of a team that had been very well... and they he forced his way out anyway.

They bent over backwards to try and mend things, did exactly what he wanted, then he went back on his word so late in the process that the Suns were absolutely screwed.

And... furthermore, the list of teams he wanted to be traded to (Lakers, Knicks, Heat) showed that his priorities went a lot further than "I want to be a point guard who handles the ball more".

 

[SirStefan32]

Dragic demoted himself to that. Early in the year the team was flying and he was moving without the ball, as the season went on he got pouty and basically didn't do anything unless he had the ball in his hands.

Where I really fault Dragic is that the team asked what they could do to fix the relationship, they did it, then he said "nah"... if he'd just been uphappy and wanted out, period, then okay, I can handle that, if he'd stayed after the team addressed his issues... I can handle that. What makes me really think low of Dragic is that they appeased him, in grand fassion, an overhaul of a team that had been very well... and they he forced his way out anyway.

They bent over backwards to try and mend things, did exactly what he wanted, then he went back on his word so late in the process that the Suns were absolutely screwed.

And... furthermore, the list of teams he wanted to be traded to (Lakers, Knicks, Heat) showed that his priorities went a lot further than "I want to be a point guard who handles the ball more".

I disagree, but there is no reasoning on this one with someone who sees it differently.

 

[Phrazbit]

I disagree, but there is no reasoning on this one with someone who sees it differently.

Maybe. I can see disagreements with a lot of what I said, but I don't see how he didn't screw us over when they asked him how to make it right, the team did it, then he changed his mind at the 11th hour after several moves had been arranged.

IMO, he indisputably screwed us in that aspect and bad.

Just so you know, I think Bledsoe is no saint either. If he was so low on playing on a loser that he couldn't deal with a even a few games then he should have made it known in the off season instead of quitting roughly partway through the 2nd game of the season.

It's not pleasant when a player wants off your team, but at least be upfront about it. Don't be a freaking weasel who not only forces their way out but torpedoes their former organization in the process. You and I went toe to toe on many a Dragic/Bledsoe debate, in the end they both orchestrated very self, ugly exits.

 

[Phrazbit]

A couple more thoughts on the topic, even though it probably belongs in another thread.

I think Dragic could have had a fantastic career. He was an absolute terror in the open court and a good shooter. If he'd tried to be a threat off the ball he would have been one of the most well rounded offense guards in the NBA. I think he and Bledsoe were a really good pairing, they did a good job of covering for each others short comings and, especially on the break, accentuating strengths. That pairing was, by far, the biggest strength on the roster in 2013-14. When they played together we had a winning percentage that put us on pace for like 54-55 wins, and that was with a really sketchy roster around them.

McD shouldn't have screwed with that part of the formula. While I see his logic in signing IT; it allowed us to keep a face paced, free wheeling attack at all times and IT was signed at an incredible bargain. At the same time... players are not automatons (this is McD's biggest fault, I think he's a good at seeing talent but he disregards that he's dealing with fragile egos and not a fantasy team or video game).

But, if Dragic felt like the relationship was beyond repair, I wish he would have said so, instead of demanding they move Thomas and then changing his mind after they'd signed off on moving Thomas.

IMO, Dragic is a player who does like to win, but he only tries if he is playing on his terms. Bledsoe on the other hand does not seem too worried about his touches or role in the offense, he really wants to win but rapidly quits trying if he deems it too steep a hill to climb.

 

[JCSunsfan]

A couple more thoughts on the topic, even though it probably belongs in another thread.

I think Dragic could have had a fantastic career. He was an absolute terror in the open court and a good shooter. If he'd tried to be a threat off the ball he would have been one of the most well rounded offense guards in the NBA. I think he and Bledsoe were a really good pairing, they did a good job of covering for each others short comings and, especially on the break, accentuating strengths. That pairing was, by far, the biggest strength on the roster in 2013-14. When they played together we had a winning percentage that put us on pace for like 54-55 wins, and that was with a really sketchy roster around them.

McD shouldn't have screwed with that part of the formula. While I see his logic in signing IT; it allowed us to keep a face paced, free wheeling attack at all times and IT was signed at an incredible bargain. At the same time... players are not automatons (this is McD's biggest fault, I think he's a good at seeing talent but he disregards that he's dealing with fragile egos and not a fantasy team or video game).

But, if Dragic felt like the relationship was beyond repair, I wish he would have said so, instead of demanding they move Thomas and then changing his mind after they'd signed off on moving Thomas.

IMO, Dragic is a player who does like to win, but he only tries if he is playing on his terms. Bledsoe on the other hand does not seem too worried about his touches or role in the offense, he really wants to win but rapidly quits trying if he deems it too steep a hill to climb.

McD signed IT because he was an incredible value AND because Bledsoe was not even talking to the team at the time—more the latter than the former.

 

[SirStefan32]

Maybe. I can see disagreements with a lot of what I said, but I don't see how he didn't screw us over when they asked him how to make it right, the team did it, then he changed his mind at the 11th hour after several moves had been arranged.

IMO, he indisputably screwed us in that aspect and bad.

Just so you know, I think Bledsoe is no saint either. If he was so low on playing on a loser that he couldn't deal with a even a few games then he should have made it known in the off season instead of quitting roughly partway through the 2nd game of the season.

It's not pleasant when a player wants off your team, but at least be upfront about it. Don't be a freaking weasel who not only forces their way out but torpedoes their former organization in the process. You and I went toe to toe on many a Dragic/Bledsoe debate, in the end they both orchestrated very self, ugly exits.

I always come back to a few comments he let slip out on a couple of separate occasions. One was about too many broken promises, another about never knowing what to expect, and not trusting the team. I found all of that plausible, credible, and consistent of what we knew about McD at the time. Dragic has always been rather shy, calm, and mild-mannered. He loved playing here, was a fan-favorite, came back after the Suns dumped him the first time, and has a great relationship with the owner. He has always been well-liked by his teammates and the fans. There had to be some serious issues for him to get to the point where he just didn't have any trust left in McD. The bottom line is that we really don't know what happened behind the scenes.

He was clearly the Suns' best player and he was relegated to standing in the corner having to watch IT and Bledsoe play hero ball. This was after making the All-NBA third team. Oh, it was his contract year too.

Again, we don't really know what happened. We know bits and pieces, but at the end of the day, we have no idea as to what really happened. We know that Sarver almost refused to trade him, hoping he could get involved and talk Dragic into staying (Sarver basically signed him the second time around secretly in a parking garage, with no agent or GM present if I remember the story correctly). We also know that Dragic personally called Sarver once he was traded, and apologized for his comments. We also know that Goran and Ryan had a good conversation and buried the hatchet since then.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I think it is possible that McD or Babby made promises that Hornacek refused to keep. The big problem was IT. But remember that Zoran was also on the roster and and not getting time. I think that Zoran was frustrated and the two together compounded the issue. Brothers on the roster was a bad idea and I think it was Babby that really pushed it.

 

[SirStefan32]

I think it is possible that McD or Babby made promises that Hornacek refused to keep. The big problem was IT. But remember that Zoran was also on the roster and and not getting time. I think that Zoran was frustrated and the two together compounded the issue. Brothers on the roster was a bad idea and I think it was Babby that really pushed it.

Agreed. Suns were very dysfunctional back then. I am actually a fan of McD, but he was a very young GM with no experience, especially when it comes to dealing with people. I think that's still his big weakness, but he was REALLY bad back then. It was also the time Sarver was starting to be hands-off when it comes to basketball operations. Frankly, that was one time where he should have stepped in, but when you announce you are taking a step back, you box yourself into a corner.